One thing I've noticed about 'terminal online' is that people vastly underestimate how much it affects them. Myself included.
It seems if I ever call out a loved one, whether my brother or wife or friend, for being on their phone too much, they immediately get defensive and argue they were just doing some one task. Even if this was initiated after them being zoned out for an hour or longer. And I've done the same when reading something super interesting and getting lost in time.
Honestly, it doesn't seem much different than how addicts act in an intervention. We need to realize that this is an addiction, label and treat it appropriately.
My wife finally relented when our kid asked me to do something while I was working because 'mom is too busy with Facebook again.' I think that really hurt her feelings, even if she never admitted as much.
My ex wife is an ex wife because she zoned out into Facebook constantly and stopped doing anything with the family. Then she went bananas and ran away with someone who ironically she split up with because he was always on Facebook. It can go pretty bad.
I’m super happy though as the kids stayed with me :)
Having done a fair share of substance abuse, I can tell you that screen and social media addiction is exactly like any other addiction. The brain mechanics behind it are the same. "Just another hit and then I am done".
The Power of Habit (the book) helped me identify my bad habits the moment they triggered.
Also, what's fascinating is that addictions seem to bundle together. If I get off the sauce, start working out, etc, it becomes immediately easier to ignore the phone, social media, and other reflexive behavior, like snacking for no reason.
A lot of good questions to ask yourself here. But,
> have you ever used/applied "internet slang" (cringe, based, cuck, chad) in/to real-life situations?
I take slight issue with this one. To me, there is no difference between “internet slang” and just “slang”. The internet is ubiquitous and the language we use online and offline is largely the same now.
Didn’t always be this way. I still remember the first time I heard a friend say “epic fail” in really life circa 2005 or so, and it was like some sort of glass wall had been broken between our real lives and our internet lives. But that wall is long gone, and I think that’s probably okay.
Recently I was arrested and had all my electronics seized by the police.
The whole experience was a wake-up call, not just in terms of being arrested but being without a computer or any way to get online for a couple of weeks.
It really made me realize how 'addicted' I was to the internet, and going cold turkey was horrible, time slowed down and I was sure I was missing out on everything.
But I read so much more and all the days seemed longer (time dragged so much) and then when I finally got back online I hadn't missed sh*t.
I hate to throw a purely negative comment up as a naked response to a post, but this is really just a contemptful screed about people engaging in online interactions the author doesn't jibe with. It's not even like they're presenting their opinion to elicit other perspectives-- it's presented as an objective list of unhealthy habits and patronizing instructions to align your behavior with the author's values and priorities. Not sure if the author intended this to be publicly consumed in this form but I'll skip their other blog entries.
It's a good guide but it only addresses fairly vacuous and not that great online activities.
My Twitter feed is a collection of funniest, most deranged takes on any subject. People IRL have no chance to compete, no one can outdo the best two seconds of 800 people.
Same with HN. Conversations like these are rarely happening offline.
And then there are communities I sunk into. Private forums I have been a member of for nearly a decade. I know the in-jokes, we follow the stories of more interesting (chaotic) posters, there's even some real emotional investment.
All of that reachable fully asynchronously. Went to the gym alone? Read between the sets. Waiting for something? It's right there on your phone. Sadly, also, someone being boring... well, better stuff is in your pocket.
If you like that, then can I interest you in some crack, it's amazing compared to sobriety. Whenever I have to engage with people, all I am ever thinking is, "this is rubbish, I have some crack in my pocket, what am I doing here?" How can people be expected to compare with crack? It's ridiculous :)
> Same with HN. Conversations like these are rarely happening offline.
May I suggest that you might be looking in the wrong places offline?
HN-style discussions are a staple of lunchtime banter at any number of tech firms. Likewise you can find similar discussions at any number of universities, or on the tech conference circuit. Not to mention your local nerd-leaning special-interest communities (be it tabletop, D&D, hacker space, BDSM, etc).
The internet makes it really easy to find a community of folks who share similar interests, all without leaving your house. But unless you live in the middle of nowhere, one can generally find such a community IRL
Whether my online activities are less vacuous or not, by the numbers I spend an inordinate amount of time on the computer or other device. Granted mostly for work, but even after I get through evening chores, I tend to want to go straight back.
I think one mistake of perspective we have, when terminally-online and evaluating the alternative, is looking for other sources of passive constant stimulation as a substitute for social media feeds. Not bombarding your senses is part of the point. Daydreaming and thinking doesn't have to be boring, even just enjoying a moment of quiet.
Saying that, I think most people lack social validation in everyday life and try to satisfy it virtually. Having interesting conversation is separate from that, but also a consideration. We seem to be disappointed by our offline social lives but don't do a whole lot to rectify. That would require change (scary) and effort.
> There is an insurmountable asymmetry that degrades any local event or exchange. Because of the infinity of content accessible 24/7, there will always be something online more informative, surprising, funny, diverting, impressive than anything in one’s immediate circumstances.
- 24/7: Late Capitalism and the Ends of Sleep" by Jonathan Crary
I'm struggling with it. I have a website blocker on my Mac, but then I just turn it off eventually and go back to old habits, if I block hacker news, reddit etc, then I end up just having random thoughts and googling those and finding other sites to read through and of course sometimes reddit can have the answer for the thing i needed to google, so that can be annoying.
I changed to a white list to try and solve this problem, but then I just keep finding little bits of websites i need access to, to do what I want, the minute I disable something or find a solution, I just get around it somehow or need to turn it off and end up at square one.
I feel I tap into the " what is your life philosophy? what do you believe in? do the communities you browse online reflect this in some way? did you learn about these from people online?" this quite a lot.
The internet for me, is not about watching cute cat videos, but trying to learn more about life, philosophy, how to be a better human, productivity porn etc, maybe it's a big insecurity of mine, but I think about this stuff all the time and the internet is a unending resource for all this stuff, I figure that a great resource in solving and thinking about all these things, must be other people and there own thoughts and experiences that I can learn from and then integrate with my own thinking and the internet gives me unending access to that, or at least in theory it does.
So i'm reading through Hacking News, Reddit, blogs, watching youtube videos, podcasts etc, hoping to find those things and then I end up with a bunch of notes and documents etc, but it all kinda becomes overwhelming anyway, either from the content I am currently consuming or even all the thoughts and ideas I wrote down previous because I thought they where somehow useful.
I honestly don't know what to do about this anymore. I'm trying to figure out a system for living more simply and internet consumption is part of it, but also there is the bigger issue that i mentioned which I think is the primary driver of that internet consumption.
I think most people struggle with this if they recognize this as a problem. I use https://freedom.to to set up times of day when I can access social media. And yes, sometimes I shut this down when I want to cheat.
For me the best life hack to avoid wasting even more time is to rely on my Apple Watch to get phone calls and text messages, and leave my iPhone at home. This is sort of like using an old flip-phone because it takes accessing social media off the table.
People have had this problem figured out for a very long time and I guess there’s just been too much else going on on the internet so it’s been lost.
You’re the only really technical person in the house, you’re the only one who can block you from doing things you know are bad for you, so you set up the software to do it, and then you have your spouse or a really good friend change the password. Now you can’t get back in without talking to them first.
> trying to learn more about life, philosophy, how to be a better human, productivity porn etc
IMO The internet is not usually a good way to learn this stuff. These are big life concepts that require deep focus and patience. The internet rewards the opposite of that.
The Big Concepts require both study and application. If you’re mostly spending time in the study phase, it’s not working.
I use SelfControl App for Mac which adds the sites to your host file for a certain amount of hours. I find it to be very helpful now. Its also annoying to override it so while I could easily do it, usually it makes me delay until the "craving" passes.
Honestly, I'm an information addict. I'm online far too much mainly reading news etc.
I think I've forgotten how I lived without a constant stream of information. I'm seriously tempted to get a dumb phone to remove temptation to browse when I have a few minutes to spare.
The stupid thing is for all my reading, I don't feel any wiser or even knowledgeable. At the same time I think I'm less able to engage in normal conversation.
I have a few rules and habits that helped me kick. They might help you?
Never to walk down the street looking at my phone. Eyes on the road. If I need to look at my phone, I stop somewhere out of the way of foot traffic.
All notifications are silent except calls or text messages from specific people. Calls from people I don't know and text messages get only a slow blinking light. Social media get no notifications.
When I am with someone or a group in person, phone goes away.
If I wouldn't allow someone to interrupt a conversation, the phone doesn't either. I won't answer it if someone is talking to me, especially something important. When there's a pause in the conversation, I'll ask politely to check to see who called.
Finally, and this might be the biggest, I am constantly listening to audiobooks and podcasts. It scratches that itch of needing constant stimulation, but I can still be aware of everything around me.
I was like you few months ago. When summer started I decided to stop reading news from online. It was hard at first but quite fast I started seeing the benefits. More focus, more happiness, not being so worried all the time. Now I only read HN (way too often of course :)) and I ordered a newspaper to my home which is published 3 times a week. I get distilled look on whats going on in the world but it’s not eating my focus.
Instead, try cutting the triggers with an ad blocker and a few changes to your settings.
I hide recommended content, unsubscribe from everything, unfollow everything, and generally have a "don't call me, I'll call you" approach to information.
I went as far as removing pagination buttons on websites I tend to browse too much.
I also use Pocket to save more interesting articles. Combined with a "things I don't understand" to-do list, I spend more time reading about practical things instead of just browsing. I don't regret that sort of reading.
You realize a problem so you are on a good path. Two things that help me: prefer not carrying an iPhone and rely on my Apple Watch. Also, instead of spending over an hour a day on YouTube watching alternative news commentaries from people like Matt Taibbi, etc. I try to cut down on that substituting YouTube channels on philosophy, Thai Chi exercises, etc.
Also, having a library card at your local library gets you books to read, both physical books and eBooks through the Libby book reading app.
Anyway, congratulations on recognizing the problem: you are ahead of the game compared to most of my friends in real life and family.
Same symptoms as you and was also on the Nokia website a few days back looking at dumb phones. Others also mentioned the Apple watch also was a good alternative.
> The stupid thing is for all my reading, I don't feel any wiser or even knowledgeable. At the same time I think I'm less able to engage in normal conversation.
100% if I spent all the time I spend online reading actual books, I'd be much better off.
>"I think I've forgotten how I lived without a constant stream of information. I'm seriously tempted to get a dumb phone to remove temptation to browse when I have a few minutes to spare."
Up until few month ago my phone did not even have data plan. I ordered it now but purely for business needs. I use my phone strictly for phone calls and as GPS (I have offline maps). I use another phone to control gizmos like drone. For everything else I use PC and since I spend enough time doing various physical activities I consider my life balanced.
Something that really helped me was a smartwatch. I picked up an Apple Watch (cellular) a few weeks ago so I didn't have to carry my phone around, and subsequently, would not be tempted to mindlessly use it. I think the experiment has been pretty successful. For the most part my phone stays on the charger all day, and I don't feel like I am missing out on calls or texts since they come to my watch. Being able to leave the house without a phone is a particularly freeing experience.
> find a hobby // i don't mean this derisively, i promise. if you use social media to kill time, try putting that time into something else - maybe something you've always wanted to do. always wanted to cook? look up a recipe and start.
I believe the author (and many other people giving this advice) are naive to the difference between “free time with mental energy to burn” — where a hobby is definitely the right answer — and “free time where you’ve already used all your mental energy for the day.”
50 years ago, someone who was mentally drained by evening-time would be “vegetating in front of the TV.” Today they’re “doomscrolling.” In both cases it’s not that they’re addicted to a certain behavior, but rather that this behavior is one of the only pastimes available to them in their current environmental context that can be executed when fully cognitively fatigued, and yet not tired enough to sleep.
I say “in their current environmental context” because living in certain places (e.g. most cities, suburbs) limits your options. In more rural areas, you can just go out for a long walk in nature, or spontaneously go fishing. In communities that are safe, walkable, and socially well-connected, you can go to a {cafe, park, mall, bar, community centre, church, …} and run into friends rather than strangers, and just hang out shooting the breeze until you get tired. But many people alive today are in environments where they have none of those options. They have to come up with a braindead pastime that can be done both alone and indoors. We didn’t evolve to do well in this situation! Anything you pick is going to end up not being very good for you!
(Before anyone suggests “reading” — you’re underestimating the level of cognitive fatigue many people reach. If you have enough mental energy at the end of the day to concentrate on reading a good book and getting the full effect of it — as opposed to having a good book just slide past you, or reading “junk food” op-ed blogposts — that’s great for you, but that amount of mental energy would also be sufficient to cook or practice an instrument. Reading — the kind that actually enriches your mind — is a hobby, not a pastime!)
I think the internet has accelerated the evolution of "mind viruses". New arguments and rhetorical tricks arise and mutate very fast. If you jump off it, that'll be good for you, but when you get back on after a long time, you might have no "immune defense" against what the internet came up with in the meantime. Similar to how the USSR was outside Western cultural evolution for awhile, and when it broke up in the 90s, people turned out very vulnerable to colorful ads, bubblegum and Ponzi schemes.
Maybe the fear of such "falling off the wagon" is part of what keeps us on the internet. We don't want to lose the world's thread of conversation, because in the end one way or another it will affect us anyway. It's like not coming to the forum where future laws are decided.
Health and online activity are inextricably linked at this point.
Mental health. Cardiovascular health. Health of interpersonal
relationships. Work life balance.
I sincerely think we are at an equivalent situation as the tobacco
industry in the 1970s. The decisions we make now will affect the lives
of generations to come.
Cal Newport's site has a Ledger of Harms [1] at the Center for Humane
Technology, and I wrote what I hope is an accessible and lightly
challenging overview of the problem of technology overuse in Digital
Vegan [2].
I got part way through Digital Vegan, but admittedly haven’t finished it yet.
It’s been a few weeks since I had to put it down for another book, but here is my main takeaway (so far) - it’s all true, but in my opinion it comes across with very strong views and some extreme options as something to hand non-technical friends. It’s also relatively expensive to obtain in the US.
But thank you for your contribution to the discussion on this topic. I think you’re probably closer to where we should end up, but I don’t see a path to get there.
I am listening to the audiobook "Stolen Focus" and it has some good points on internet addiction. Most importantly, it's useless to blame yourselves completely for the addictive behaviours. The tech industry is spending billions on experts to get you hooked. In a way, tech industry is like Purdue pharma. But the responsibility is still individual's.
Who really cares - 100 years ago you might as well have moaned about people living through books. We have to live and learn 2nd hand because:
* Learning some things 1st hand has a high chance of being fatal
* We cannot afford to live all possible lives but we do have to be able to understand each other and each other's motives to be able to get along - this means we have to imagine what it's like to be someone else.
The internet is just the latest way to communicate and learn things from/about other people.
Eh, none of the bookworms I know ever had drastic changes in their personality consistent with anxiety or depression, or somehow became angry and bitter after binge-reading a 6 book fantasy series. It just isn't a thing that happens.
I also don't think the internet itself—we didn't see this problem with blogs/wikipedia/trashy chain emails from your uncle.
It's the feeds. Because everything is tuned for engagement, if there's a type of content that's going to mess with your head in particular, the algorithm will find it and hammer you with it.
A lot of people seem to care: everyone upvoting, commenting, and even you taking the time to comment.
Internet-enabled pocket computers are vastly different than silent, dark, large, heavy, un-update-able, one-way, single-topic (more-or-less) sources of entertainment/distraction.
I have struggled with Internet addiction, and still do, for a long time, and so far the only thing that has helped to dramatically reduce usage time was the Firefox/Chrome extension News Feed Eradicator [1]. I didn't realize to what degree news feeds were attention black holes until I installed it. I still go often on social media, but thanks to this extension these visits now last a few seconds, to check messages and some specific people I check regularly. I highly recommend it.
It's a balancing act and for me, Internet use is an addiction like gluttony. Forgive my lack of empathy, but addiction takes on a whole other quality when you're addicted to some necessity of life.
Food is, of course, a quintessential necessity, and someone who overeats or has an eating disorder needs to come to terms with temperance, moderation, and balance of lifestyle, rather than quit eating altogether.
15 years ago, it was realistic to hang up the modem, unplug the computer, get face out of screen, and get some fresh air for long stretches of time. But my reality today is that I use a device online to manage my household and do ordinary, everyday tasks, including working for my employer is 100% online. Implicit in this article is the fact that the Internet is no longer something to be avoided or removed from our lives; the article simply suggests that we can use it differently, improving our attitudes and our approach.
So rather than a "kick the habit" strategy, we typically need to devise time-management techniques and ways to form better habits around good, productive use of our devices, while balancing that with actual needs to unplug and take a walk in the fresh air.
That may mean that I don't obsessively check bank balances and twiddle my bill payments 3 times a day, 7 days a week. And it means that I'm not allowing every email and SMS to distract me from a task. And perhaps channels about home meal preparation and gentleman's grooming should be dominating my YouTube suggestions, above SNL and Avril Lavigne tracks.
I also need to cope with being triggered. If I have an anxiety attack or fit of rage over someone who's Wrong on the Internet, I am guaranteed to suffer insomnia and all the rest. And so we need the skillsets to short-circuit and defuse those situations, and sometimes the situation is avoidable and sometimes we need to find a way to push through it without losing our heads.
This blogger offers 15 pragmatic, common-sense strategies for coping. And it can get better. Do not believe that you can escape the Internet by avoiding it, nor can you escape real life by going online. Develop good hygiene, good habits, be productive, and learn to cope when things inevitably get difficult.
I try to write down what I'm about to use the internet for before I open the web browser. This way I can glance and see if I've gotten distracted and try to get back on task. This works wonders when trying to list something on FB Marketplace. In the past I would be three posts deep in my feed before snapping out of it and remembering why I opened FB in the first place. I can see why the feed was such a game changer for FB. Before you can use FB for anything you will be forced to glance at the feed :(
This could be an awesome extension. Something that asks you in a couple textboxes - what is your goal with this browser session/how much time do you think you need to accomplish it - and then keeps these items of info visible below the tab bar.
This article (and many similar articles often shared on HN) are written as if the target audience are adults. And maybe it is. But there are already plenty of articles about how we spend too much time online, and the effects of social media.
But why aren’t there more articles like this targeting teens, e.g. when — or before — the problem starts?
Language like this:
> irony, post-irony, meta-irony, and whatever-irony are the lingua franca of the terminally online.
makes it clear that this is not written with a general audience in mind.
Are there articles that cover really good points like this in a way that really sinks in for a younger audience, to help them understand the risks and how to recognize the problem before it becomes a deep rooted and/or normalized addiction?
As a parent of teens, it would be nice to find and share articles with them that are written in a way that really sinks in while not coming across as preachy/judgmental.
> if you find it hard to ditch tiktok, instagram, twitter, or some other similar site, going "cold turkey" will be even harder. try to gradually reduce your usage
YMMV but my trick for Facebook was a hard commit to "I'm going to take 2 weeks off". Cold Turkey with a boundary. I think I check it once for five minutes every month or two now.
HN is trickier because I don't have to login first to see it. When I start to think Im on it too much, I delete it from my password manager and don't supply an email. (Sorry, I know this is annoying to them what run this site)
Another useful thing is to generally keep a "don't respond to first level replies" policy. Keeps you in discussions but out of knee-jerk responses. Might seem rude but it keeps you sane.
What worked for me with Facebook is doing "Facebook Fridays" - as much Facebook as I wanted on Fridays and nothing the rest of the week. It didn't take long to realize I was not missing much.
With other sites like HN, I have short-term success with going cold turkey for a specific time-frame (e.g. a week). I can stick with that, and my use afterward is more moderate but eventually I come back to over-use.
It works for some people. I always had more success just gradually stopping.
I had massive issue with that, I always tried going cold turkey. Then I just stared to count hours, set high - but still - limits. And over time I found I feel that I don't have to, even if I'm withing the limits - I felt no need.
I don't know if HN is a good place for personal advice like this;
I have grown severely paranoid about what has happened around social media. I watched.. a conversation unfold in 2012. I thought at the time that I needed to de-escalate it. It kept escalating as I kept looking for a way to talk to the people involved. And, to my own perception, it grew into and took over the entire 'national conversation' that was happening here in the years that followed. I now have panic attacks whenever I see the words / phrases / jargon / ideas I watched form 'here'. I often have severe enough psychological issues that I just disconnect from everything and repeat the question "who are you people" to myself. Especially as my suspicions of what it was that had spread from that day in 2012 grew to... everything people say/think/do.
I'm not sure what way I could move forward. I've been trying, with minimal success, to write down in long form what I saw happen. I've largely lost the emotional wherewithal for it. I tried reaching out to old friends for advice, which shows I've lost contact with everyone enough that I can't. I was terminally online before this all happened, and don't really know how to meet people away from here. Or if I would find the same things, and shut down again. I do know that my paranoia extends to people I see in real life. The past 1 year has pushed me into a constant fear of everyone, online and off.
Not sure if getting away from the internet would help now.
I can't understand what you're saying, but I get that this may be a stressful topic so you are being vague. From what I see, it might be a good idea to look for some professional help if this is debilitating paranoia.
[+] [-] silisili|3 years ago|reply
It seems if I ever call out a loved one, whether my brother or wife or friend, for being on their phone too much, they immediately get defensive and argue they were just doing some one task. Even if this was initiated after them being zoned out for an hour or longer. And I've done the same when reading something super interesting and getting lost in time.
Honestly, it doesn't seem much different than how addicts act in an intervention. We need to realize that this is an addiction, label and treat it appropriately.
My wife finally relented when our kid asked me to do something while I was working because 'mom is too busy with Facebook again.' I think that really hurt her feelings, even if she never admitted as much.
[+] [-] iasay|3 years ago|reply
I’m super happy though as the kids stayed with me :)
[+] [-] papito|3 years ago|reply
The Power of Habit (the book) helped me identify my bad habits the moment they triggered.
Also, what's fascinating is that addictions seem to bundle together. If I get off the sauce, start working out, etc, it becomes immediately easier to ignore the phone, social media, and other reflexive behavior, like snacking for no reason.
[+] [-] applobabab|3 years ago|reply
That sent shivers down my spine, wow.
[+] [-] rco8786|3 years ago|reply
> have you ever used/applied "internet slang" (cringe, based, cuck, chad) in/to real-life situations?
I take slight issue with this one. To me, there is no difference between “internet slang” and just “slang”. The internet is ubiquitous and the language we use online and offline is largely the same now.
Didn’t always be this way. I still remember the first time I heard a friend say “epic fail” in really life circa 2005 or so, and it was like some sort of glass wall had been broken between our real lives and our internet lives. But that wall is long gone, and I think that’s probably okay.
[+] [-] innocentfelon4|3 years ago|reply
The whole experience was a wake-up call, not just in terms of being arrested but being without a computer or any way to get online for a couple of weeks.
It really made me realize how 'addicted' I was to the internet, and going cold turkey was horrible, time slowed down and I was sure I was missing out on everything.
But I read so much more and all the days seemed longer (time dragged so much) and then when I finally got back online I hadn't missed sh*t.
[+] [-] ElemenoPicuares|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] blfr|3 years ago|reply
My Twitter feed is a collection of funniest, most deranged takes on any subject. People IRL have no chance to compete, no one can outdo the best two seconds of 800 people.
Same with HN. Conversations like these are rarely happening offline.
And then there are communities I sunk into. Private forums I have been a member of for nearly a decade. I know the in-jokes, we follow the stories of more interesting (chaotic) posters, there's even some real emotional investment.
All of that reachable fully asynchronously. Went to the gym alone? Read between the sets. Waiting for something? It's right there on your phone. Sadly, also, someone being boring... well, better stuff is in your pocket.
[+] [-] scaramanga|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] swiftcoder|3 years ago|reply
May I suggest that you might be looking in the wrong places offline?
HN-style discussions are a staple of lunchtime banter at any number of tech firms. Likewise you can find similar discussions at any number of universities, or on the tech conference circuit. Not to mention your local nerd-leaning special-interest communities (be it tabletop, D&D, hacker space, BDSM, etc).
The internet makes it really easy to find a community of folks who share similar interests, all without leaving your house. But unless you live in the middle of nowhere, one can generally find such a community IRL
[+] [-] slothtrop|3 years ago|reply
I think one mistake of perspective we have, when terminally-online and evaluating the alternative, is looking for other sources of passive constant stimulation as a substitute for social media feeds. Not bombarding your senses is part of the point. Daydreaming and thinking doesn't have to be boring, even just enjoying a moment of quiet.
Saying that, I think most people lack social validation in everyday life and try to satisfy it virtually. Having interesting conversation is separate from that, but also a consideration. We seem to be disappointed by our offline social lives but don't do a whole lot to rectify. That would require change (scary) and effort.
[+] [-] neil_jetter|3 years ago|reply
- 24/7: Late Capitalism and the Ends of Sleep" by Jonathan Crary
[+] [-] ChildOfChaos|3 years ago|reply
I changed to a white list to try and solve this problem, but then I just keep finding little bits of websites i need access to, to do what I want, the minute I disable something or find a solution, I just get around it somehow or need to turn it off and end up at square one.
I feel I tap into the " what is your life philosophy? what do you believe in? do the communities you browse online reflect this in some way? did you learn about these from people online?" this quite a lot.
The internet for me, is not about watching cute cat videos, but trying to learn more about life, philosophy, how to be a better human, productivity porn etc, maybe it's a big insecurity of mine, but I think about this stuff all the time and the internet is a unending resource for all this stuff, I figure that a great resource in solving and thinking about all these things, must be other people and there own thoughts and experiences that I can learn from and then integrate with my own thinking and the internet gives me unending access to that, or at least in theory it does.
So i'm reading through Hacking News, Reddit, blogs, watching youtube videos, podcasts etc, hoping to find those things and then I end up with a bunch of notes and documents etc, but it all kinda becomes overwhelming anyway, either from the content I am currently consuming or even all the thoughts and ideas I wrote down previous because I thought they where somehow useful.
I honestly don't know what to do about this anymore. I'm trying to figure out a system for living more simply and internet consumption is part of it, but also there is the bigger issue that i mentioned which I think is the primary driver of that internet consumption.
[+] [-] mark_l_watson|3 years ago|reply
For me the best life hack to avoid wasting even more time is to rely on my Apple Watch to get phone calls and text messages, and leave my iPhone at home. This is sort of like using an old flip-phone because it takes accessing social media off the table.
[+] [-] hinkley|3 years ago|reply
You’re the only really technical person in the house, you’re the only one who can block you from doing things you know are bad for you, so you set up the software to do it, and then you have your spouse or a really good friend change the password. Now you can’t get back in without talking to them first.
[+] [-] vlunkr|3 years ago|reply
IMO The internet is not usually a good way to learn this stuff. These are big life concepts that require deep focus and patience. The internet rewards the opposite of that.
The Big Concepts require both study and application. If you’re mostly spending time in the study phase, it’s not working.
[+] [-] wand3r|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rr808|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] timellis-smith|3 years ago|reply
I think I've forgotten how I lived without a constant stream of information. I'm seriously tempted to get a dumb phone to remove temptation to browse when I have a few minutes to spare.
The stupid thing is for all my reading, I don't feel any wiser or even knowledgeable. At the same time I think I'm less able to engage in normal conversation.
[+] [-] rendall|3 years ago|reply
Never to walk down the street looking at my phone. Eyes on the road. If I need to look at my phone, I stop somewhere out of the way of foot traffic.
All notifications are silent except calls or text messages from specific people. Calls from people I don't know and text messages get only a slow blinking light. Social media get no notifications.
When I am with someone or a group in person, phone goes away.
If I wouldn't allow someone to interrupt a conversation, the phone doesn't either. I won't answer it if someone is talking to me, especially something important. When there's a pause in the conversation, I'll ask politely to check to see who called.
Finally, and this might be the biggest, I am constantly listening to audiobooks and podcasts. It scratches that itch of needing constant stimulation, but I can still be aware of everything around me.
[+] [-] raptorraver|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nicbou|3 years ago|reply
I hide recommended content, unsubscribe from everything, unfollow everything, and generally have a "don't call me, I'll call you" approach to information.
I went as far as removing pagination buttons on websites I tend to browse too much.
I also use Pocket to save more interesting articles. Combined with a "things I don't understand" to-do list, I spend more time reading about practical things instead of just browsing. I don't regret that sort of reading.
[+] [-] mark_l_watson|3 years ago|reply
Also, having a library card at your local library gets you books to read, both physical books and eBooks through the Libby book reading app.
Anyway, congratulations on recognizing the problem: you are ahead of the game compared to most of my friends in real life and family.
[+] [-] bamboozled|3 years ago|reply
> The stupid thing is for all my reading, I don't feel any wiser or even knowledgeable. At the same time I think I'm less able to engage in normal conversation.
100% if I spent all the time I spend online reading actual books, I'd be much better off.
[+] [-] FpUser|3 years ago|reply
Up until few month ago my phone did not even have data plan. I ordered it now but purely for business needs. I use my phone strictly for phone calls and as GPS (I have offline maps). I use another phone to control gizmos like drone. For everything else I use PC and since I spend enough time doing various physical activities I consider my life balanced.
[+] [-] crims0n|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] derefr|3 years ago|reply
I believe the author (and many other people giving this advice) are naive to the difference between “free time with mental energy to burn” — where a hobby is definitely the right answer — and “free time where you’ve already used all your mental energy for the day.”
50 years ago, someone who was mentally drained by evening-time would be “vegetating in front of the TV.” Today they’re “doomscrolling.” In both cases it’s not that they’re addicted to a certain behavior, but rather that this behavior is one of the only pastimes available to them in their current environmental context that can be executed when fully cognitively fatigued, and yet not tired enough to sleep.
I say “in their current environmental context” because living in certain places (e.g. most cities, suburbs) limits your options. In more rural areas, you can just go out for a long walk in nature, or spontaneously go fishing. In communities that are safe, walkable, and socially well-connected, you can go to a {cafe, park, mall, bar, community centre, church, …} and run into friends rather than strangers, and just hang out shooting the breeze until you get tired. But many people alive today are in environments where they have none of those options. They have to come up with a braindead pastime that can be done both alone and indoors. We didn’t evolve to do well in this situation! Anything you pick is going to end up not being very good for you!
(Before anyone suggests “reading” — you’re underestimating the level of cognitive fatigue many people reach. If you have enough mental energy at the end of the day to concentrate on reading a good book and getting the full effect of it — as opposed to having a good book just slide past you, or reading “junk food” op-ed blogposts — that’s great for you, but that amount of mental energy would also be sufficient to cook or practice an instrument. Reading — the kind that actually enriches your mind — is a hobby, not a pastime!)
[+] [-] cousin_it|3 years ago|reply
Maybe the fear of such "falling off the wagon" is part of what keeps us on the internet. We don't want to lose the world's thread of conversation, because in the end one way or another it will affect us anyway. It's like not coming to the forum where future laws are decided.
[+] [-] padolsey|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nonrandomstring|3 years ago|reply
Mental health. Cardiovascular health. Health of interpersonal relationships. Work life balance.
I sincerely think we are at an equivalent situation as the tobacco industry in the 1970s. The decisions we make now will affect the lives of generations to come.
Cal Newport's site has a Ledger of Harms [1] at the Center for Humane Technology, and I wrote what I hope is an accessible and lightly challenging overview of the problem of technology overuse in Digital Vegan [2].
[1] https://ledger.humanetech.com/?ref=witsio
[2] https://digitalvegan.net
[+] [-] mlac|3 years ago|reply
It’s been a few weeks since I had to put it down for another book, but here is my main takeaway (so far) - it’s all true, but in my opinion it comes across with very strong views and some extreme options as something to hand non-technical friends. It’s also relatively expensive to obtain in the US.
But thank you for your contribution to the discussion on this topic. I think you’re probably closer to where we should end up, but I don’t see a path to get there.
[+] [-] codethief|3 years ago|reply
Sorry, I'm not following. Could you elaborate on the connection between Cal Newport and the site you linked to?
[+] [-] sidcool|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] t43562|3 years ago|reply
* Learning some things 1st hand has a high chance of being fatal
* We cannot afford to live all possible lives but we do have to be able to understand each other and each other's motives to be able to get along - this means we have to imagine what it's like to be someone else.
The internet is just the latest way to communicate and learn things from/about other people.
[+] [-] coffeefirst|3 years ago|reply
I also don't think the internet itself—we didn't see this problem with blogs/wikipedia/trashy chain emails from your uncle.
It's the feeds. Because everything is tuned for engagement, if there's a type of content that's going to mess with your head in particular, the algorithm will find it and hammer you with it.
[+] [-] MerelyMortal|3 years ago|reply
Internet-enabled pocket computers are vastly different than silent, dark, large, heavy, un-update-able, one-way, single-topic (more-or-less) sources of entertainment/distraction.
[+] [-] keyle|3 years ago|reply
There is gluttony and then, there is gluttony with junk foods.
Books and Wikipedia addiction isn't quite like one more fetch of the Instagram feed. Update my story. See such and such latest story.
Both are forms of escapes but one leads to a dangerous generation of waste.
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] puttycat|3 years ago|reply
[1] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/news-feed-era...
[+] [-] Eleison23|3 years ago|reply
Food is, of course, a quintessential necessity, and someone who overeats or has an eating disorder needs to come to terms with temperance, moderation, and balance of lifestyle, rather than quit eating altogether.
15 years ago, it was realistic to hang up the modem, unplug the computer, get face out of screen, and get some fresh air for long stretches of time. But my reality today is that I use a device online to manage my household and do ordinary, everyday tasks, including working for my employer is 100% online. Implicit in this article is the fact that the Internet is no longer something to be avoided or removed from our lives; the article simply suggests that we can use it differently, improving our attitudes and our approach.
So rather than a "kick the habit" strategy, we typically need to devise time-management techniques and ways to form better habits around good, productive use of our devices, while balancing that with actual needs to unplug and take a walk in the fresh air.
That may mean that I don't obsessively check bank balances and twiddle my bill payments 3 times a day, 7 days a week. And it means that I'm not allowing every email and SMS to distract me from a task. And perhaps channels about home meal preparation and gentleman's grooming should be dominating my YouTube suggestions, above SNL and Avril Lavigne tracks.
I also need to cope with being triggered. If I have an anxiety attack or fit of rage over someone who's Wrong on the Internet, I am guaranteed to suffer insomnia and all the rest. And so we need the skillsets to short-circuit and defuse those situations, and sometimes the situation is avoidable and sometimes we need to find a way to push through it without losing our heads.
This blogger offers 15 pragmatic, common-sense strategies for coping. And it can get better. Do not believe that you can escape the Internet by avoiding it, nor can you escape real life by going online. Develop good hygiene, good habits, be productive, and learn to cope when things inevitably get difficult.
[+] [-] tppiotrowski|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tenebrisalietum|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jader201|3 years ago|reply
But why aren’t there more articles like this targeting teens, e.g. when — or before — the problem starts?
Language like this:
> irony, post-irony, meta-irony, and whatever-irony are the lingua franca of the terminally online.
makes it clear that this is not written with a general audience in mind.
Are there articles that cover really good points like this in a way that really sinks in for a younger audience, to help them understand the risks and how to recognize the problem before it becomes a deep rooted and/or normalized addiction?
As a parent of teens, it would be nice to find and share articles with them that are written in a way that really sinks in while not coming across as preachy/judgmental.
[+] [-] Tao3300|3 years ago|reply
YMMV but my trick for Facebook was a hard commit to "I'm going to take 2 weeks off". Cold Turkey with a boundary. I think I check it once for five minutes every month or two now.
HN is trickier because I don't have to login first to see it. When I start to think Im on it too much, I delete it from my password manager and don't supply an email. (Sorry, I know this is annoying to them what run this site)
Another useful thing is to generally keep a "don't respond to first level replies" policy. Keeps you in discussions but out of knee-jerk responses. Might seem rude but it keeps you sane.
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] PebblesRox|3 years ago|reply
With other sites like HN, I have short-term success with going cold turkey for a specific time-frame (e.g. a week). I can stick with that, and my use afterward is more moderate but eventually I come back to over-use.
[+] [-] Claude_Shannon|3 years ago|reply
I had massive issue with that, I always tried going cold turkey. Then I just stared to count hours, set high - but still - limits. And over time I found I feel that I don't have to, even if I'm withing the limits - I felt no need.
[+] [-] throwaway1146|3 years ago|reply
I have grown severely paranoid about what has happened around social media. I watched.. a conversation unfold in 2012. I thought at the time that I needed to de-escalate it. It kept escalating as I kept looking for a way to talk to the people involved. And, to my own perception, it grew into and took over the entire 'national conversation' that was happening here in the years that followed. I now have panic attacks whenever I see the words / phrases / jargon / ideas I watched form 'here'. I often have severe enough psychological issues that I just disconnect from everything and repeat the question "who are you people" to myself. Especially as my suspicions of what it was that had spread from that day in 2012 grew to... everything people say/think/do.
I'm not sure what way I could move forward. I've been trying, with minimal success, to write down in long form what I saw happen. I've largely lost the emotional wherewithal for it. I tried reaching out to old friends for advice, which shows I've lost contact with everyone enough that I can't. I was terminally online before this all happened, and don't really know how to meet people away from here. Or if I would find the same things, and shut down again. I do know that my paranoia extends to people I see in real life. The past 1 year has pushed me into a constant fear of everyone, online and off.
Not sure if getting away from the internet would help now.
[+] [-] picture|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] city17|3 years ago|reply