I’ve noticed in myself and anecdotally in others that a lot of stubbornness in conversation simply comes from the desire for validation. Having someone acknowledge what I’m saying is generally enough to get a conversation moving forward, where ignoring or not responding to my input can cause me to fixate until I recognize what I’m doing and break myself out of it.
But if I feel mild validation, even if it is concluded with a “no”, I’m far more likely to consider myself having reacted “humbly” and more openly during the introspection I am forced to have at 3:45am the following morning.
Maybe this was all a tangential comment, but that’s the thought that was sparked by this post.
Absolutely. And you can use that fact to steer conversations on a smoother course.
ME: We need to load the catalogue data into the app for this feature.
SOME IDIOT I WORK WITH: Well that's in the database of course, so that's easy.
ME (inside voice): It's not in the database. Why would you assume it was in the database? Because you are an idiot who makes assumptions.
ME (outside voice): Ah, well if the system was well-structured, of course you would be perfectly correct, but in this case, there is an unfortunate quirk, so, to my great surprise, that data is stored in XML files on this tape archive ...
Just to be contrary, it's possible that you're reading too much into other people's responses if you're actually beating yourself up in the middle of the night about what someone meant or didn't.
Check out existential therapy. I'm not saying this to pathologize or minimize what you're saying, just that it's something I used to suffer from before I realized via (said therapy) that everyone else is just a narcissistic fuck living in their own narrative and they literally don't even remember what you said six hours later. It's very liberating once you absorb that. (obviously, what you write on the internet is forever, but that's kind of why you should be so much less anxious about your conversations IRL).
Might be a little bit paradoxical from your perspective but this is very self-centered behavior. If someone tells you ”no”, it’s probably not because they don’t like you. People say no when they don’t want something themselves, and it probably has nothing to do with you or your validation.
Really bad advice. I have learned a lot from people way less experienced than me. Even if I usually know more than some individual I still find things that he may know and I do not.
Let's not talk about classifying an individual as "mediocre". It just seems the old "noble blood" fallacy as if some people is just "better" than others instead of everyone being being complex and with flaws.
Very true. I try to stay humble but at work I definitely have lists of people I always listen to and a (longer) list of people I generally never listen to. Maybe they have a good thought from time to time but I don’t have enough time to listen to all bad ideas to maybe find the one good idea.
The "mediocre individual" (terminology from the quote above) might still have something valuable to share.
If you fight a drunk person throwing random punches, there might be still a probability to get knocked out because within that randomness there is a probability of a perfect punch.
Experts are often right but occasionally they can be wrong. Skilled competitors often win but occasionally they can lose, even to beginners.
Can you cite this quote in its original language? I'd be interested to read it.
Google translate gives me:
"نتيجة الكثير من التواضع هي أن ينتهي بك الأمر بالاستماع إلى مشورة شخص متوسط المستوى."
A bit unrelated, but one pet peeve of mine these days is the explosion of humble brag.
It used to be a little annoying, but it's now everywhere. Name dropping, inserting casually possessions, social status or achievements, using "I'm humbled by" all the time...
Doing your best to not sound pretentious is great. I wish I worked on that way sooner.
But faking humility, often badly, is such a mood killer for me.
I also think it comes with 2 trends that are rampant in social media, and runs especially deep in the US culture:
- adding virtue signaling to every interaction.
- using superlative for the most mondain things.
It's an instant credibility killer for me. But the problem is... for a lot of people, it seems to work.
Stay off of LinkedIn, then. That seems to be the place people practice it[0].
I don't humblebrag, and it doesn't win me friends. There's some things that I'm really, really good at, and lots of things that I'm mediocre, to really bad, at. I don't hide any of it.
Most folks on venues like this, assume I'm arrogant (I'm not). I just don't pretend to be bad at stuff I'm good at, and don't pretend to be good at stuff I'm bad at.
That seems to be an aberration, in today's world.
I'm not looking for work or friends. I don't participate in any social media, outside of this place (an occasional update on Facebook or LinkedIn. Almost never Twitter, Instagram, etc.). I just hang out here, because there aren't many tech people around my neck of the woods, and I'm quite impressed by many of you. I participate, because I feel a sense of duty to do so (If I want to be a member, I should act like a member).
I have worked with a number of people who are like that and nobody seems to notice which drives me nuts so it can't be addressed. I have one of those now and I just have to make sure we stay on different teams. The combination of a massive ego and the skill to mask it create a truly terrible person.
As a principle I agree with this but some environments make it possible. If your intellectual humility is almost guaranteed to be used against you as weakness and liability then such hostile environments mean you must at least fake arrogance.
But in my experience, the rare time it was encouraged to say "i don't know" and "I was wrong" were also the times when I was around the most competent and talented people.
I like to think so, but I sure detest the fake humble people, who deny that they know anything. This whole "I know nothing, like, not even that 1+1=2" kind of attitude or this borderline "the universe is holy and I must be in awe of it because it makes me sound deep and that I am humble, when really this is all a show to make others think that I'm intellectually humbler than they are."
I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else, but I just think there's a lot of overweening fake humbleness going on. "Oh, the universe is so big, how can we be so arrogant that we think we know everything, the universe is a wonderous place and we are so small and limited, and blah, blah, blah." Yeah, I get it already. Heard it the first million times how wonderous you think the universe is and how loudly and strenuously you proclaim to know nothing because you heard it is cool to say that you don't know nothing about nothing.
It's like humble bragging, but humble humbling.
I mean, we know that the entire universe's matter is made up of the periodic table through spectroscopy (not counting dark matter, just "regular" matter). It's not like there's going to be whisky atoms or pizza atoms so that there's just a lake of whisky somewhere. You are not going to be able to have animals made of Xenon or Argon or Neon or any of the other noble inert gases.
I think there is a lot of shit to learn and it is fun and interesting and I love it. But there's no reason to act with such fake reverence and like it is a holy universe. It's just flucking stuff that we need to learn about. It's not a god to pray to.
Do you all hate me now that I'm ruining all your universe reverence?
I don't know, man, it just bugs me to no end the whole "we know nothing" bow your head in fake humility thing so you can fit into the "I don't know crowd" and be a popular cool kid, too.
Intellectually humble people is a rarity these days, In contrast you have an abundance of [1]Intellectual bullies which are very popular toxic crowd in places like twitter/reddit and sadly even on HN.
I've found that too much humility gets you bullied, or people try to take advantage of you, instead of playing nice.
I'm talking about in the workplace, but it's been consistent at every place I've worked. I have to act slightly like an asshole otherwise people come at me like wolves.
> I've found that too much humility gets you bullied
That depends a lot on your environment. There are many companies were this happens, upper management nurtures an unhealthy environment were abuse is common and people need to be defensive.
If you ever work in a healthy place, or if you have good friends, the possibility to just lower all barriers and be humble is liberating and it fosters creativity.
> I have to act slightly like an asshole otherwise people come at me like wolves.
I am sorry to hear that. I have worked in both kind of places and the mental health going home is vastly different. I hope you get a better working place that not only is healthier but will allow you to learn more, be more creative and productive instead of losing your time acting like an asshole because is required.
Some of the comments here discuss humbleness in general, which is different from what this post is about. The article talks about being intellectually humble, and defines it as the ability to self reflect and accept the possibility that you are wrong.
It is different from the standard context of being humble, which is usually to avoid bragging about own's success. Being able to accept own's mistakes, even when you're sure you're right, is another, big, step forward.
Given Apple's massive success I think they can afford to be more Cook-like, but a bit of Jobs-style fire, egomania, overconfidence and iconoclasm might help out when you're trying to transform an industry like PCs (Macintosh, iMac), audio players (iPod), or smartphones (iPhone). Though Jobs also had the seemingly (but not actually) humble "one more thing..."
I don't see a lot of humility - intellectual or otherwise - in Elon Musk, for example. But Musk's arrogance, like Jobs', is also backed up by ability to actually do things. And the ability to change one's mind, especially in the face of evidence, seems to be important.
I have also observed that effective self-promotion moves some people ahead of their humbler but more qualified peers.
When I am great enough to be humble, you'll know. I like the sentiment of the article, though I have become personally suspicious of much self effacement. Most of being smart is being open to becoming smarter, which means actively seeking out having your mind changed. Being wrong in public is one of the fastest ways to get elusive answers as well, though admittedly the openness can deprive people of the satisfaction of correcting you, and they can quickly stop offering solutions and become resentful. Sticking your neck out on being stupid often yields commensurate rewards in the correction. Counter to the effacing humility prescribed by the article, I'd propose being bold in your questions and initiative at trying things yourself and being so terrible at them that someone sees what you are trying to do and corrects it. YMMV, but while humility gets reliable results in small groups (and I do value and respect it), I'd defy anyone to give an example of something that scales faster than being stupid. I would ask whether it's the confidence or obliviousness for acting and iterating in ignorance that yields experience.
Exodus 20:3 (KJV) "thou shalt have no other gods before me". As a Christian I'm forbidden form holding any belief that isn't directly in the bible and not a provable fact. It is amazing how many people claim to believe the bible, but then add a ton of beliefs on top of it that are not from the bible.
Not sure if troll or not but as you might know, there are different levels to Christianity. I'm not the kind of person to say all paths leads to Rome but I do believe that there are variables to a Christian life and every single person's journey will be different.
The only advantage I see at beeing humble is that it does not offend people with low self-esteem.
One only needs to say to be good at something or to be proud of something to trigger some people. More so in Europe than in the States I think.
It also helps you brainhack yourself into learning more thing, and being more open to other people's perspectives. Not all of these will be valuable, but some of them will be, immensely so. If you have success based solely on your own perspective, it's easy to think you have it all figured out already and overlook where there's room for improvement and outside input.
But that's just culture/language. In the US, saying that you are good at something is expected, in other countries, you pass the same message just by just saying you do the thing. In these countries, if you say that you are good at something, it is the equivalent of saying "I am a fucking god and no one can approach me" in the US, it is just rude.
The biggest problem is you deny yourself the process of attaining true humility if you put up a “act as if” facade of being humble. It’s a falsehood, what you mean to say is you are being non-confrontational.
There is a process in attaining humility, you cannot just adorn yourself in it from the start.
I feel and certainly hope so, but I also feel there have been no positive consequences for it.
I think the only positive feedback along these lines (not that it had any positive consequences) was way back when I was a course assistant and instructor during graduate school in mathematics, and it came in the form of student reviews.
If you're being proved right, why change your mind? If it's too early to have data, then keep going. If data is starting to go against you, then intellectual humility will allow you to pivot to a better direction. Intellectual humility is not at the expense of intellectual rigor, it's what enables it. It's the difference between creating a high quality and fair experiment and creating one that's more likely to give you the result you want.
It's less about "I'm wrong i need to listen to everyone and rethink my opinions all the time", its "I could be wrong. If i see "data" that goes against my opinion, i should consider changing my opinion rather then assuming the data is wrong". Or just agree to disagree and implicitly don't assume the person disagreeing with you is an idiot/morally_bankrupt/etc...
The article touches on this from the perspective of threat but people have a tendency to lie to themselves; which is why so many mechanisms in experiments and medical studies exist to force intellectual humility into the process.
> But how can a humble person accomplish something extraordinary? At some point, you gotta have faith in what you're doing, despite all the opposition.
Humility means accurate self-assessment. People will argue this point, I suppose, conflating humility with meekness (and meekness with weakness), but I think a distinction is both correct and worthwhile.
Therefore, humble people can accomplish extraordinary things as well as (or better than) anyone, perhaps because of their accurate self assessments. This leads to interconnection (I'm good at X, not at Y) and complementarity: I strengthen what is weak in you and vice versa, and we develop in partnership in a way that could not be done separately.
Being in software development, I have no choice! Feel like every time I blink there is a new something to learn. After working in this field for 14 years I am still very much a newbie.
One of the most difficult things is to know when it's really good to be humble and when it's really good to assert yourself. None of them work the whole time.
Depends. Vigorous debate and experimenting does not come from humility. It comes from conviction. Humility is an end game, you can only reach for it when you accept that you are wrong (at the end of the argument) and likewise, when you win and don’t parade it and acknowledge the merits of the other side.
But during the process, no, there can be no humility. You have to fight.
> Depends. Vigorous debate and experimenting does not come from humility. It comes from conviction. Humility is an end game, you can only reach for it when you accept that you are wrong (at the end of the argument) and likewise, when you win and don’t parade it and acknowledge the merits of the other side.
This isn't true. Humility is accurate self-assessment, and from here can easily spring conviction, experimentation, and vigorous debate. (I know my opinions on subject X are well formed and tested by trial, error, and experience; that is why I hold such and such an opinion and can debate about it with conviction. It's also why I can take corrective measures and understand what others are saying, etc., etc.)
Indeed, humility is basically a prerequisite to adequate debate. One of the problems of society is that we don't get this.
Good teachers equip you with tools used to dispute their own conclusions. Worldviews should be malleable and subject to change. The ability to see things from different perspectives goes a long way in being able to question rigid thoughts.
cheschire|3 years ago
But if I feel mild validation, even if it is concluded with a “no”, I’m far more likely to consider myself having reacted “humbly” and more openly during the introspection I am forced to have at 3:45am the following morning.
Maybe this was all a tangential comment, but that’s the thought that was sparked by this post.
twic|3 years ago
ME: We need to load the catalogue data into the app for this feature.
SOME IDIOT I WORK WITH: Well that's in the database of course, so that's easy.
ME (inside voice): It's not in the database. Why would you assume it was in the database? Because you are an idiot who makes assumptions.
ME (outside voice): Ah, well if the system was well-structured, of course you would be perfectly correct, but in this case, there is an unfortunate quirk, so, to my great surprise, that data is stored in XML files on this tape archive ...
noduerme|3 years ago
Check out existential therapy. I'm not saying this to pathologize or minimize what you're saying, just that it's something I used to suffer from before I realized via (said therapy) that everyone else is just a narcissistic fuck living in their own narrative and they literally don't even remember what you said six hours later. It's very liberating once you absorb that. (obviously, what you write on the internet is forever, but that's kind of why you should be so much less anxious about your conversations IRL).
zwkrt|3 years ago
qpqpdbdbqpqp|3 years ago
Ibn Khaldun (1332-1406)
hourago|3 years ago
Let's not talk about classifying an individual as "mediocre". It just seems the old "noble blood" fallacy as if some people is just "better" than others instead of everyone being being complex and with flaws.
spaetzleesser|3 years ago
29athrowaway|3 years ago
If you fight a drunk person throwing random punches, there might be still a probability to get knocked out because within that randomness there is a probability of a perfect punch.
Experts are often right but occasionally they can be wrong. Skilled competitors often win but occasionally they can lose, even to beginners.
dejj|3 years ago
SketchySeaBeast|3 years ago
Double_a_92|3 years ago
woweoe|3 years ago
BiteCode_dev|3 years ago
It used to be a little annoying, but it's now everywhere. Name dropping, inserting casually possessions, social status or achievements, using "I'm humbled by" all the time...
Doing your best to not sound pretentious is great. I wish I worked on that way sooner.
But faking humility, often badly, is such a mood killer for me.
I also think it comes with 2 trends that are rampant in social media, and runs especially deep in the US culture:
- adding virtue signaling to every interaction.
- using superlative for the most mondain things.
It's an instant credibility killer for me. But the problem is... for a lot of people, it seems to work.
ChrisMarshallNY|3 years ago
I don't humblebrag, and it doesn't win me friends. There's some things that I'm really, really good at, and lots of things that I'm mediocre, to really bad, at. I don't hide any of it.
Most folks on venues like this, assume I'm arrogant (I'm not). I just don't pretend to be bad at stuff I'm good at, and don't pretend to be good at stuff I'm bad at.
That seems to be an aberration, in today's world.
I'm not looking for work or friends. I don't participate in any social media, outside of this place (an occasional update on Facebook or LinkedIn. Almost never Twitter, Instagram, etc.). I just hang out here, because there aren't many tech people around my neck of the woods, and I'm quite impressed by many of you. I participate, because I feel a sense of duty to do so (If I want to be a member, I should act like a member).
[0] https://twitter.com/StateOfLinkedIn
dexterdog|3 years ago
zh3|3 years ago
badrabbit|3 years ago
But in my experience, the rare time it was encouraged to say "i don't know" and "I was wrong" were also the times when I was around the most competent and talented people.
mihaaly|3 years ago
moffkalast|3 years ago
CRConrad|3 years ago
From the original(?) Swedish: "Jag är inte bara störst, bäst och vackrast, jag är ödmjukast också!"
(Non-standard use of "-est" superlative forms in English for consistency, effect, and fidelity.)
WalterBright|3 years ago
_aaed|3 years ago
andrewclunn|3 years ago
- Humility -
Humility is not letting someone win
or pretending not to care when you lose.
It is not feigned ignorance or polite dishonesty.
Humility is not a trick to gain approval,
nor is it an abdication of your pride.
---
Humility is a stand taken to the end
with passion; an opinion that you choose
and live by with conviction and integrity,
but if shown to be in error in part or full,
and that the truth not be on your side...
---
you change your mind.
---
And furthermore you admit it publicly
and you learn from it internally.
Never let passion to stand up for truth fade.
Don't let desire for becoming right be outweighed
by undeserved pride.
---
Sincere pride,
real humility,
true integrity;
they are one and the same.
---
The true integrity is tough and admits its errors
Value your sincerity enough to live your values
Only then is real pride obtained
or the admiration of anyone,
whose opinion is worth a damn,
gained.
matwood|3 years ago
ASlave2Gravity|3 years ago
As_You_Wish|3 years ago
I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else, but I just think there's a lot of overweening fake humbleness going on. "Oh, the universe is so big, how can we be so arrogant that we think we know everything, the universe is a wonderous place and we are so small and limited, and blah, blah, blah." Yeah, I get it already. Heard it the first million times how wonderous you think the universe is and how loudly and strenuously you proclaim to know nothing because you heard it is cool to say that you don't know nothing about nothing.
It's like humble bragging, but humble humbling.
I mean, we know that the entire universe's matter is made up of the periodic table through spectroscopy (not counting dark matter, just "regular" matter). It's not like there's going to be whisky atoms or pizza atoms so that there's just a lake of whisky somewhere. You are not going to be able to have animals made of Xenon or Argon or Neon or any of the other noble inert gases.
I think there is a lot of shit to learn and it is fun and interesting and I love it. But there's no reason to act with such fake reverence and like it is a holy universe. It's just flucking stuff that we need to learn about. It's not a god to pray to.
Do you all hate me now that I'm ruining all your universe reverence?
I don't know, man, it just bugs me to no end the whole "we know nothing" bow your head in fake humility thing so you can fit into the "I don't know crowd" and be a popular cool kid, too.
Frajedo|3 years ago
plaguepilled|3 years ago
7uOctt0p|3 years ago
[1]http://paul-m-jones.com/post/2008/11/07/patterns-of-intellec...
booleandilemma|3 years ago
I'm talking about in the workplace, but it's been consistent at every place I've worked. I have to act slightly like an asshole otherwise people come at me like wolves.
hourago|3 years ago
That depends a lot on your environment. There are many companies were this happens, upper management nurtures an unhealthy environment were abuse is common and people need to be defensive.
If you ever work in a healthy place, or if you have good friends, the possibility to just lower all barriers and be humble is liberating and it fosters creativity.
> I have to act slightly like an asshole otherwise people come at me like wolves.
I am sorry to hear that. I have worked in both kind of places and the mental health going home is vastly different. I hope you get a better working place that not only is healthier but will allow you to learn more, be more creative and productive instead of losing your time acting like an asshole because is required.
yuvalr1|3 years ago
It is different from the standard context of being humble, which is usually to avoid bragging about own's success. Being able to accept own's mistakes, even when you're sure you're right, is another, big, step forward.
neilv|3 years ago
https://www.theonion.com/monk-gloats-over-yoga-championship-...
musicale|3 years ago
Tim Cook: "We think you'll love this."
vs.
Steve Jobs: "It's insanely great!"
Given Apple's massive success I think they can afford to be more Cook-like, but a bit of Jobs-style fire, egomania, overconfidence and iconoclasm might help out when you're trying to transform an industry like PCs (Macintosh, iMac), audio players (iPod), or smartphones (iPhone). Though Jobs also had the seemingly (but not actually) humble "one more thing..."
I don't see a lot of humility - intellectual or otherwise - in Elon Musk, for example. But Musk's arrogance, like Jobs', is also backed up by ability to actually do things. And the ability to change one's mind, especially in the face of evidence, seems to be important.
I have also observed that effective self-promotion moves some people ahead of their humbler but more qualified peers.
flippinburgers|3 years ago
jdthedisciple|3 years ago
motohagiography|3 years ago
bluGill|3 years ago
CedarMills|3 years ago
CRConrad|3 years ago
Which is it -- "not in the bible", or "not a provable fact"? Because if it's both, that's a paradox.
Silverback_VII|3 years ago
m12k|3 years ago
GuB-42|3 years ago
But that's just culture/language. In the US, saying that you are good at something is expected, in other countries, you pass the same message just by just saying you do the thing. In these countries, if you say that you are good at something, it is the equivalent of saying "I am a fucking god and no one can approach me" in the US, it is just rude.
jesuscript|3 years ago
There is a process in attaining humility, you cannot just adorn yourself in it from the start.
tpoacher|3 years ago
my12pence|3 years ago
I've often found this useful to remember when talking to people with different views.
gkfasdfasdf|3 years ago
-Data
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eDYVtPwWiM
bmitc|3 years ago
I think the only positive feedback along these lines (not that it had any positive consequences) was way back when I was a course assistant and instructor during graduate school in mathematics, and it came in the form of student reviews.
WalterBright|3 years ago
Very rarely are accomplishments made traveling a road strewn with flowers.
throw_nbvc1234|3 years ago
It's less about "I'm wrong i need to listen to everyone and rethink my opinions all the time", its "I could be wrong. If i see "data" that goes against my opinion, i should consider changing my opinion rather then assuming the data is wrong". Or just agree to disagree and implicitly don't assume the person disagreeing with you is an idiot/morally_bankrupt/etc...
The article touches on this from the perspective of threat but people have a tendency to lie to themselves; which is why so many mechanisms in experiments and medical studies exist to force intellectual humility into the process.
memling|3 years ago
Humility means accurate self-assessment. People will argue this point, I suppose, conflating humility with meekness (and meekness with weakness), but I think a distinction is both correct and worthwhile.
Therefore, humble people can accomplish extraordinary things as well as (or better than) anyone, perhaps because of their accurate self assessments. This leads to interconnection (I'm good at X, not at Y) and complementarity: I strengthen what is weak in you and vice versa, and we develop in partnership in a way that could not be done separately.
wdurden|3 years ago
hackererror404|3 years ago
unknown|3 years ago
[deleted]
enviclash|3 years ago
ManuelKiessling|3 years ago
jesuscript|3 years ago
But during the process, no, there can be no humility. You have to fight.
memling|3 years ago
This isn't true. Humility is accurate self-assessment, and from here can easily spring conviction, experimentation, and vigorous debate. (I know my opinions on subject X are well formed and tested by trial, error, and experience; that is why I hold such and such an opinion and can debate about it with conviction. It's also why I can take corrective measures and understand what others are saying, etc., etc.)
Indeed, humility is basically a prerequisite to adequate debate. One of the problems of society is that we don't get this.
cainxinth|3 years ago
djhaskin987|3 years ago
LAC-Tech|3 years ago
poulpy123|3 years ago
orangepanda|3 years ago
> Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no.
d--b|3 years ago
planck01|3 years ago
If you want truth, understanding or science discoveries -> be very humble (intellectually).
tartoran|3 years ago
roguas|3 years ago
theknocker|3 years ago
[deleted]
responsible|3 years ago
wawjgreen|3 years ago
[deleted]
flerchin|3 years ago