I spent a year designing a low profile, minimal mechanical keyboard

[aemerson_]

Hi HN,

During lockdown I took up the keyboard hobby but I couldn't find anything I liked the aesthetic of. So I set out to design my own keyboard from scratch that shunned the gamer look in favour of a more minimal, serious design.

I've built several prototypes but I would love to get some feedback from the HN community.

[ivanjermakov]

Low profile ergonomic mechanical keyboard is a pretty deep hole to dive into. You can design your own PCB, order it from manufacturer and build the exact keyboard you want (split, wireless, with knobs, any form and key count). It is not for everyone and might require soldering, but possibilities are endless.

Additional resources:

- r/ErgoMechBoards: https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/

- Low Profile Discord: https://discord.com/invite/dBSRZ2a

- Collection of split low profile mechanical keyboards: https://kbd.news/tag/low-profile/

- "A Tiny, Ultra-Affordable Keyboard You Can Build Yourself!" video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqpBKuEVinw

[interleave]

This looks fantastic!

A thought-experiment that may interest you coming from someone (me) who already has happily spent several hundreds of dollars on mechanical keyboards and uses them every single day:

Let's imagine the keyboard could be bought today as-is with a simple "Buy Now" button and price was no concern.

The two main reasons I would _still_ hesitate to hit that button are:

1. I absolutely and undoubtedly need to know what it SOUNDS and FEELS like. Is it linear, tactile, clicky? How much? I turned my speakers to max because I assumed you'd have some audio-track running but to no avail. Did I miss something?

2. I wish there was a 'blank' version with zero typography anywhere. Just all black. I touch-type and have not looked at my keyboard in 15 years.

[freedomben]

> 2. I wish there was a 'blank' version with zero typography anywhere. Just all black. I touch-type and have not looked at my keyboard in 15 years.

If you don't look at it, why do you care if it has typography? (that's an honest question, not a rhetorical point dressed up as a question)

[LeifCarrotson]

Down in tech specs it says the switches are Kailh Chocolate Low Profile Reds, which are a reasonably common linear switch.

Also, OP, you've got a typo in those same specs: OS support is listed as "Apple MacOS 12 (Monteray) and up". That should be Monterey with an E.

I'm a bit curious why the keyboard requires MacOS 12 or Windows 10, and doesn't list Linux support...it's an HID device. Just about anything will work, right? I assume it's configured out of the box with CONFIG_ZMK_HID_CONSUMER_REPORT_USAGES_FULL, and not _BASIC, to get the RGB and encoder to work...but again, this is a keyboard. Why wouldn't it work?

[aemerson_]

Agreed, acoustics are SO important. Once I am happy with how the prototype sounds I will update the website with a typing text.

[antioppressor]

1. Does that matter? Most mechanical keyboards slowly nuke your fingers' cartilages and will make your fingers ache, since they don't have proper attenuation, hence they are rubbish. Yet people use them like it's some kind of miracle, when a cheapo 15 dollar keyboard provides better feel while typing and longevity for your fingers.

[bravoetch]

The site describes the switches as similar to reds. Linear, no tactile bump, silent.

[opan]

Looks like the switches are chocs. You can get blank caps from mkultra.click.

[barrenko]

I hate to tell you - and this is a common "theme" on HN - but you are probably not the target audience.

[cantSpellSober]

Cool, congrats and thanks for sharing, we need more competition here

1. raised/indented keys will get dirty really fast, an option without would sell me

2. 2-device pairing is great, your competitors have 3 though

3. hot-swap keycaps would be a huge sell

4. nice typography, why isn't the logo in it? take off the logo

5. replace the empty area with home => end

6. 3 modifiers on the left, 3 right please! (not 4-left/2-right)

7. options for other keycap sets later?

8. dial is too tall, removable? swappable? jog dial?

9. love the giant esc key, L-shaped enter

10. esc keycap to replace caps would be awesome

11. show me a pic of the full cable/any more details here

12. what are the feet like? foam? rubber? adjustable height?

13. neat website but moves too much, show me a boring gallery of static images somewhere please

14. add clit mouse

15. sustainable material means something to me and makes me more want to buy, really!

16. don't add LEDs, i'd rather save money

17. lmk when it's ergo (cries in carpal tunnel)

[DoingIsLearning]

> 14. add clit mouse

I've tried a lot of really nice mech keyboards but this is the one thing that makes me go back to my 'ThinkPad TrackPoint Keyboard II'. It's super nice to never have to leave home row and I definitely feel the relief in terms of RSI.

[ebastler]

2. This one is basically limited by what a 3 position slider (usb/bt1/bt2) can do, the firmware could do up to 5. We could offer an alternative firmware where the slider can do bt1/bt2/bt3, and USB or Bluetooth is automatically determined by whether it's plugged in or not if that helps.

5. That space is needed for the battery, since the board is too slim to place it elsewhere.

[fredophile]

> 17. lmk when it's ergo (cries in carpal tunnel)

I haven't received it yet but a while ago I backed a split mechanical keyboard on kickstarter that I hope will be good for this. If you want to check it out its the keyboardio model 100.

[ugh123]

Learned a new term today!

> 14. add clit mouse

https://xkcd.com/243/

[omnimus]

4. the logo is great! 13. website is just fine! nice renders

[hjkl0]

> 6. 3 modifiers on the left, 3 right please! (not 4-left/2-right)

One of the first things I look at. Not very easy to find…

[redhale]

HN comments never disappoint

[dom96]

Amazing job! The keyboard looks great. I have a couple of question for you regarding how you built the prototype and how you are planning to manufacture it. I am building something much less ambitious but also a hardware project and could really use some answers to these questions.

* How did you get the CE compliance? Did you literally just fork out a couple of grand and send the prototype to a lab to do it for you?

* How does creating the prototype vs. getting manufacturing going look like? Did you create the aluminium body yourself in your garage, then started getting in touch with Chinese companies to see who could manufacture it? How did you find the contacts for these?

If anyone else has tips for these kinds of things, I'd appreciate them also. The CE compliance in particular is quite daunting.

[D13Fd]

Thoughts:

- Excellent job

- The font choices are bold. They don’t appeal to me personally, but nice job.

- The sunk/raised key caps look nice but I’m not sure how they would perform in practice.

- I couldn’t tell from the website what the second switch on the site does. Maybe USB/Bluetooth?

- My strong preference is a key command for switching from Bluetooth/USB, and that the keyboard keep both active for instant switching. The only keyboard I’ve found that does this well is the micropython-based M60.

- I’m not a fan of the look of the dial. It sticks up too far and looks like something that could break.

[smeej]

The font thing is bigger than people might think. As soon as I saw the number row, I had such an immediate and harsh reaction to it that it surprised me.

I almost couldn't believe that was the cause, but when I waited for the device to turn around again, that was definitely it.

I don't even have to look at my fingers often, but I wouldn't be able to stand walking by those numbers on a regular basis. I don't think I've ever had such a visceral response to an aesthetic choice before.

[ebastler]

PCB designer of the board here - The second switch can toggle USB/Bluetooth profile 1/Bluetooth profile 2 (3 pos slider), but the board runs the open source ZMK firmware and you can reconfigure it however you want. Auto-switching between BT and USB is not used on the current firmware (as it would make the USB slider pos quite useless), but the firmware can absolutely do it.

EDIT: You could for example reconfigure the slider to switch between BT profile 1/2/3, and have the board auto-switch to USB when plugged in. Would take ~2min for me since I know my way around ZMK, bit more if you have to dig into how ZMK works first ofc.

[christophilus]

I like the idea of indented keys as a clear sensory differentiator. It’s a nice nudge to tell you, “You’re in the right spot.”

Same for the pronounced bump on the home row.

The switch is to choose between one of two Bluetooth devices. I agree the placement of the USB label was confusing there.

[domador]

Why do you feel a need to emphasize the number keys and the section sign by giving their characters such a disproportionately large size than other keys? And why do you feel a need to deemphasize the function keys by giving them such a small font size? I very much dislike these choices.

I can't really tell if the numbers are in a different font than the rest of the keys, but if they are, I'd dislike that too. Please use a single font for the whole keyboard.

Aesthetics are a major selling point for your keyboard, so I think you need to spend more time and get expert advice about the fonts.

Finally, this is evidently a Mac-oriented keyboard, given how the control keys are labeled. If you plan to target the Windows market, you may wish to provide layouts with Windows-oriented control keys that are labeled as such (namely Ctrl, Alt, and the Windows key, or something that looks like the Windows key.)

[enragedcacti]

> My strong preference is a key command for switching from Bluetooth/USB, and that the keyboard keep both active for instant switching. The only keyboard I’ve found that does this well is the micropython-based M60.

Epomaker's keyboards also do this, at least my SK66 does. Fn+Space switches between wired/BT and Fn+[Z|X|C] switches between the three BT connections. It also flashes blue on the active connection so that you know you've switched into BT mode.

[dang]

This is a cool project but there needs to be more than a signup page for it to qualify as a Show HN - please see https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html.

We've taken "Show HN" out of the title now.

[seltzered_]

I run a subreddit on mobile ergonomics ( http://reddit.com/r/ergomobilecomputers/ ) and spent the past year using raised tablet PC as my only machine, and curating the smaller subset of portable keyboard & computer setups. My advice:

- drop the rotary encoder, it messes up the height for packing the keyboard away.

- a 75% layout (i.e. having fn keys) is okay, but makes it a bit challenging to fit in with a 13" tablet footprint with a magic Trackpad.

- What ergonomic job does this design serve? After a year of using a similar keyboard (Nuphy F1) I find myself seeking ergonomic improvement from a split keyboard or angling (like the Atreus) without becoming too odd of a layout.

- If you're doing a custom design, can you use smaller keys somehow to facilitate room for ergonomics (angled split) while retaining a minimal design? See https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMobileComputers/comments/v0g89d... for some inspiration .

- I like the simple black look! Similar to you I just want a fairly simple look, but focus more on ergonomics.

[jordemort]

The biggest disadvantage to switching to a split keyboard is seeing neat things like this come out, and then hearing my wrists say "it's too bad we're never letting you go back." I even have to travel with the damn thing now, if I'm planning on doing any serious coding...

[dcminter]

Very pretty. I'm tempted.

Will it work properly on Linux via bluetooth? E.g. I have a very nice mechanical keyboard from Keychron but over bluetooth it does something weird so that a hack [1] to use it in Mac mode is necessary and some key combos still don't work right for me.

On a similar note, if its firmware needs an update will I be able to do that from Linux?

It's a hard life being a Windows/Mac hater :D

[1] https://gist.github.com/andrebrait/961cefe730f4a2c41f57911e6...

[paledot]

I want to hear more about what you expect the rotary encoder to be used for. You clearly put a lot of thought into making it happen, so - why? I feel like there must be some interesting use cases, but I'm drawing a blank.

[Festro]

Looks really nice BUT:

There's a split between what people online post pics of on fancy desktop setups and what people prefer to use as their daily driver. Minimal keyboards are for minimalists, and people who like to show of their setups. Just like desktop vanity posts typically have speakers, yet everyone uses headphones.

Anecdotally there was a post recently on some PC subreddit asking what keyboard people preferred, and the overwhelming support was for 100%+ keyboards. Only people who didn't WFH much, or didn't have jobs involving any data entry at all could do without a numpad.

So, make a full version? People might think they're a bit ugly, but they're popular despite people being less willing to show off a massive keyboard.

You're right about the damn 'gamer' look though. The only good thing about the gamer look is that I will trust it has decent switches in it.

[jitl]

First off, I love the design. I signed up for updates, etc.

To me, this is missing an opportunity to be ortholinear - a grid instead of the standard finger straining zigzag pattern. That’s an ergonomic feature you can fit in a low profile keyboard. I think the grid would harmonize quite well with your design aesthetic while adding another feature on top of “pretty and slim”.

I am the sort of person who buys every vaguely ergonomic portable keyboard though, looking for one that has a good balance of portable and ergonomic while still being usable. I’m waiting on the new Kenisis Advantage 360, and I have a Atreus around here in its carrying case. I found the Atreus too tricky to type on :-(.

On other subject, have you thought about a case or cover for the “toss in bag” use case? What about a pointing device like a trackpad area, or touch sensitive keys overall?

My one other critique outside ortholinear is that the large PRODUCT NAME on top of the product is a little much. Maybe tone that down?

[Gatsky]

I don’t agree on the ortholinear point, at least for the v1 product. The fact is you are cutting out a lot of people by going with a non-standard layout. This is the same point made by Dygma to explain why they didn’t go down that route.

[alksdeef]

Yes, ortholinear is the way.. add a slight split for ergonomics and I will buy one instantly. I have the atreus as well and use it as my daily driver (removed 6 of the keys (3 bottom left & right) and taped over the holes.). With QMK, combo keys, it's a great experience but I miss the low profile keybed sometimes.

I don't think one realizes until you try an ortholinear keyboard with some ergonomic split just how uncomfortable the angled/rectangular style keyboards are. My hands, wrists and forearms have never felt better, as someone who is typing 8+ hours a day.

[alejoar]

+1 for ortholinear

[jagger27]

There are so few choices for low profile standard layout keyboards with nice keycaps, and you ortholinear fans insist on having yet another? Come on.

[TheRealPomax]

Really wish people remembered to put USB pass-through on their keyboards though. If I need a small form factor keyboard, it's gonna be a good bet the number of USB ports available is at a premium and chaining will make life so much better. Depending on what I'm doing, I'm going to need the zero latency of a cable (like using my keyboard with FL studio to make some music, for which Bluetooth latency -even the latest gen- is still way too high)

[wrthfl]

Looks awesome. Hope the rotary encoder is removable as it feels like that would defeat the purpose of a low profile keyboard that I can throw into my backpack when I'm on the move.

[public_defender]

This looks super cool.

1) Do you have an estimate for cost and date it will ship?

2) What's the deal with the rotary encoder? How will it be used by default? How will we remap it, etc.?

Edit:

3) I would really like to have Home, Insert, and End keys. I'm not sure that's worth a change in the keyboard layout, but consider this: having three or four assignable keys. You can sell keycaps for them.

4) I would use this because I carry around a lot of stuff. Either having a low-profile keycap for the rotary encoder, or having some way to easily take it off or collapse it down would be really helpful.

[peace4all]

I like it being low-profile. That's why I didn't buy ErgoDox.

So all the best wishes to the author.

But there are some tradeoffs why I probably not buy it.

1) I'd suggest a column of home/page up/page down/end (top to bottom in this order) on the right side, like some laptop makers do. They're very convenient. That's absolutely necessary for text editing or navigating in various windows. (Sure one can use combos, but then you must stick to the keyboard all the time.) Del/backspace probably also should be different keys.

2) Missing menu key also requires you to take mouse sometimes. Laptops can get away with touchpad. But with the minimal keyboard, that requires user to hold it more and use combos, you must leave the keyboard and take a mouse to open a context menu.

A general philosophical question (not a negative comment to this particular keyboard): do we really still need key rows to be shifted 1/4 of width, because keys needed arms underneath in the late 19th century?

[kerblang]

Web site advice: The spinning graphic is cool but it's very hard to get a decent look at the whole thing. I even tried clicking to pause it. It seems like all the pictures are partial or moving.

As the keyboard goes: As others have noted, it would be really nice to see this design approach taken to a more full-sized standard keyboard. I think it's necessary to have some kind of tactile thing between function keys - a gap, a bump, something.

[inasmuch]

This is the first qwerty mechanical keyboard I've seen with four keys to the left of the spacebar, properly mimicking a MacBook layout. I'm far from a connoisseur in the space, but I have done some serious looking. Thank you thank you thank you.

As others have mentioned, the Teenage Engineering influence throughout is evident and welcome. I've long wished they would take a stab at an OP-1y TKL.

While I don't love the typeface(s?) you've chosen for the keys, I respect your commitment to what I'm sure you knew would be a polarizing choice.

Don't cut any corners in the manufacturing, please. I'll buy the shit out of this, even at a premium price.

[inasmuch]

I just noticed your typography section. Cool that you included that. I actually love GT Flexa in isolation (used it on a project just a few weeks ago!). Goes to show how different type can look in context. I think I just don't love particularly wide or narrow characters on keys.

[cantSpellSober]

> four keys to the left of the spacebar...thank you

Hah, my gripe is that it is like this, instead of three keys. shrug

[deebosong]

This looks so, so good. I'm weak to all things minimal + chic.

This looks like a mini mech keyboard done by Teenage Engineering, in the best kinda way. I'm not saying it looks derivative, but I wouldn't be surprised if they saw this and wish they made it themselves. They don't hold a monopoly on this look, need, and aesthetic penchant to go in this direction.

I'm more of a "full-size keyboard with numeric pad" typa person, due to my need for hot keys in After Effects. If you (and your team?) ever made one of those, I'd be on it. I bet a buncha other designers would as well.

[aemerson_]

Thank you, I am a huge Teenage Engineering fan so that is a big complement!

Perhaps a larger board or separate numpad could come down the line if there is enough interest.

[linsomniac]

I also thought "Teenage Engineering", it looks beautiful! I'm firmly in the "ergo split with thumb clusters" camp, but the design looks beautiful.

[leohonexus]

Beautiful, but it’ll be a pain to find contract manufacturers willing to do that keycap design. From the render I can already count 8 different injection molds required, which doesn’t sound feasible for a low-volume production run. You'd either have to price it very aggressively or be advised by your manufacturers during DFM to use standard low-profile keycaps instead.

For folks curious about keyboard manufacturing, Jesse from Keyboardio wrote an entire crash course on it with his Model 01 Kickstarter updates: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/keyboardio/the-model-01...

[ghosty141]

There is already a prototype with these keycaps so I guess he did find somebody already. The price will be…. Interesting though

[varispeed]

Is it known why the molds have not gone down in price? Or is it another chicken and egg problem? (customers don't order molds because it is expensive and look for off the shelf components, companies don't invest in making molding more affordable, because there is not enough customers...)