One thing I've not seen mentioned in this thread is the enjoyment you can get from the wide expanse of flavours & mouthfeels of different alcoholic drinks. Most of the comments seem to be focussed on people drinking either to help with social anxiety or just to blot the world out, or as one poster put it "to dissociate with reality".
I really love exploring different drinks, mainly beers and spirits although I do still enjoy some wine. There is such a wide array available, it's a wonderful 'hobby'.
With cask beers you get the initial mouthfeel of what I think is the live yeast coupled with some natural carbonation; it's not at all like a gassy fizzy drink more like a gentle tingling over the mouth. Some beers then deliver 10-30 seconds of different malt flavours with some being very biscuity or others more chocolaty. There can then the several waves of hops coming over depending how it's brewed. With one mouthful you get to enjoy and savour all those flavours and textures for a good minute with a lingering taste lasting much longer, they ebb and flow like a roller-coaster.
Spirits and cocktails are the same, the depths of flavours can be absolutely wonderful. A well balanced Negroni for example can be a very complex drink.
I've found some alcohol free drinks than can be built up to be a little interesting, but nothing comes close for the expanse and depth. I presume that the alcohol is volatile and is a key part of driving the other flavours, perhaps in a similar way to salt is a flavour enhancer.
Alcoholism is causing me to lose relationships with two family members, plus it has caused severe stress among many other of my family members. For a long time, because my wife barely drinks, and I barely drink, I was able to ignore the situation. However, it has recently become clear how much I've lost because of others' drinking problems. I don't think my situation is unusual, either. I suspect many of us have relatives who are alcoholics, and that most of us have found a way to avoid those people and to minimize their impacts on us. It's often easy to ignore the health impacts on those of us who don't even drink, and yet, it somehow spirals farther than I once thought possible.
I wish more people talked about how dangerous alcohol truly is. Yes, it can be perfectly fine to drink. However, it also commonly leads to severe outcomes that are often outside of our control, and that harm us even if we don't even drink alcohol.
> However, it also commonly leads to severe outcomes that are often outside of our control, and that harm us even if we don't even drink alcohol.
I was about to ask what harm you thought was caused (not in an argumentative way, just curious) when I remembered driving (among others, but that one is far more obvious). Yeah, duh.
Alcohol killed my dad. It's an absolutely horrific way to die. Your organs shut down one by one over an extremely painful two month period. Family members can do nothing except watch. You can't even donate part of your liver, medial ethics disallow any organ transplants for alcoholics unless you are really rich/powerful/politically connected. As soon as you see them with yellow skin (Jaundice), you know their fate is sealed.
My dad was so good at managing his alcoholism - didn't seem to have any problems with work or dui's, nobody thought they needed to intervene until it was too late. One day he just collapsed at work and was taken to the hospital.
Just yesterday a drunk driver rear ended me while I was stopped at a traffic light in the middle of the day. It was just a light tap on the bumper but the road has a 55 MPh speed limit. What if he hit me going 60? Would I still be alive today?
shouldn't there be some strong and measurable impact on muslim societies (which tend to drink no alcohol) compared to non-muslim societies (who tend to drink alcohol)? is saudi arabia governed smarter or are imams wiser than catholic priests? do they live or stay healthy for longer?
having said that I am personally going through some changes. and for some reason I observed the past weeks how I don't enjoy drinking alcohol anymore. not because of healthy considerations on a rational level but just the feeling it gives me. the buzz seems to be gone and instead I'm left with an unpleasant drowsiness that lingers for way too long. I have never been an excessive drinker. I'm wondering what caused this change as it seems to be stemming from a more fundamental neurological or physiological level. I got vaccinated this year more than ten times (especially recently) due to upcoming travels and I stopped drinking coffee three months ago. might one of this contribute?
something else to consider. the host of the podcast is affiliated with a nootropic company and advertises its products at the beginning of the clip. nootropics are generally about "take this pill every day and you will feel better". directly related is the idea of "don't do this any more and you'll feel better". I'd keep that in mind consuming the presented arguments.
Congratulations. You’ve found your ideal dosage for your unique situation.
For many of us, one drink leads to more drinks at which point the physiological and psychological changes covered in the linked article become amplified.
Relying on booze to have a personality is where a lot of alcoholics start out. Not saying this is you, but it's worth keeping in mind if one beer starts becoming more.
The weird thing as I see it is that somehow the alcohol lobby has convinced an entire society that anyone who runs into severe consequences from routinely ingesting this drug (alcohol) is literally genetically deficient. Pretty much the opposite of the how people react to most drugs, for example opioid pain killers.
It's a very powerful psychological tool for promoting alcohol consumption and suppressing anti-alcohol messaging. It may even make some people continue drinking just to prove that they can "handle it" and are not genetic failures. Or even prevent people from admitting they decided to stop drinking, because someone may conclude that you are therefore genetically flawed (alcoholic).
This particular aspect is probably one of the things I hate most about our culture.
Alcohol is the most harmful drug out there[1] - worse than heroin, crack cocaine, and all the rest. It boggles my mind how common it is, while genuinely useful drugs like psilocybin are still Schedule I and relegated to the shadows.
What a nonsense.. there are millions of people drinking alcohol sporadically and are doing fine. I don't think there are that many people sporadically consuming crack and are doing fine. Now I guess you can define harmful in many ways and I didn't read the study and probably won't.
That paper doesn't really say how they computed the scores of the different drugs. Without that information it's hard to say how accurate the scoring is.
Anyone have their own cure for a hangover the following day after drinking heavily? My usual go-to is a 'Full English Breakfast' that has all the trimmings and it replaces lost electrolytes in my system and 'cures' me although it's only a band-aid solution.
There's nothing you can really do except wait a bad hangover out and let your body repair itself after essentially ingesting poison. Lucozade is another thing we have over here in the UK which is lauded as a 'curer' for hangovers. Apparently your blood sugar drops dramatically after imbibing heavily and glucose drinks bring your blood sugar back up quickly.
That and Solpadeine if you have a bad headache after (Solpadeine contains codeine which is a powerful analgesic).
Having given up drinking for two years now, I can say with certainty that no amount of alcohol is healthy. Everything is better. I won't bore you with details, but absolutely every facet of my quality of life has improved. Never touching the stuff again.
I had been drinking more or less since I was a teenager (or pre-teen?), and I live in a drinking culture (i.e., Wisconsin), but I decided to quit drinking entirely 2 years ago when the pandemic got bad. I do understand why a lot of people went in the opposite direction, drinking more during the pandemic, because it's a natural coping mechanism, so I don't criticize that. I just personally felt it was important to keep my body as healthy as possible, especially before we had vaccines. It also helped the pocketbook in economically uncertain times to not spend any money on alcohol. Now, I don't even miss drinking anymore. (I definitely did miss it for a while afterward.) I think I used alcohol too much as a crutch, in order to "have fun". I'm rewiring my brain to stop thinking I need chemical supplements in order to have fun.
I'm not trying to preach, other than to say that it is possible to break from a habit of drinking and leave it behind, if you've considered that. To be sure, I wasn't ever technically an "alcoholic", just a... normal Wisconsinite LOL. (For a laugh, here's Lewis Black on drinking in Wisconsin https://youtu.be/9m-cQin1qKE )
To flip the question, why would you like a long and healthy life? Are you happy about the world you're sending your kids into? What do you tell them about the world?
But I know my limit. I know when I feel like having another "just because" is usually a big "okay enough now"
As I'm getting older I can't drink much anymore. But wine with dinner is almost a daily thing with my partner. One to two glasses only but anymore and I'll feel a bit "off" the next day.
Can you recommend some (non-weirs) in Europe? I used to buy some from the UK but after Brexit they stopped shipping to the EU and all the ones I find have this 'non-alcoholic flavour' that I can't pinpoint but ruins the experience to me. That or they are somewhat sweet, which I Hate.
Aldi brand non alcoholic ones are actually ok, and can hit the spot, but wouldn't call them 'good!
And forget about non-alcoholic wine, that shit is awful.
Being buying low alcoholic gin (Beefeater 20%) and whiskey (Ballantines 20%). They are ok. Not perfect, but they have enough 'zing' to make them pleasant.
The science has been in a long time that no amount of alcohol is healthy. Despite overwhelming experimental, historical and anecdotal evidence, 60% of Americans drink ~4 drinks per week - which luckily is on the decline.
Something is seriously wrong with humanity if poisoning ourselves regularly to dissociate with reality remains this popular as a core social component. People will point to all of the supposed "social lubricant" benefits etc... of drinking culture, but I'm not convinced it's anything but a band-aid on some combination of social anxiety and existential dread.
I fully support anyone doing whatever they like with their body, but we should be able to at least acknowledge that any alcohol in any amount is self destructive.
I say this as a former Beer and Whiskey nerd by the way.
There are so many things in our life that cause harm in any quantity. For instance, exposure to fine particulate is directly correlated with all cause mortality. Yet almost everyone drives or rides the subway, even though both activities expose you to fine particulate. For many, the benefits of transportation outweigh the negative health impact. Many feel the same way about alcohol.
I bet even with literally perfect lives humans would still drink alcohol and consume other drugs. It's a chemical you can ingest that gives you different experiences than you normally could or would. That will NEVER not be attractive to the human brain, even if you think that's irrational. Humans are curious creatures, and that curiosity includes the desire to understand dangerous or weird things.
Is having a drink or two a week really measurably self-destructive? How does it measure compared to sitting at a desk all day, or putting mayo in your sandwiches?
> I fully support anyone doing whatever they like with their body, but we should be able to at least acknowledge that any alcohol in any amount is self destructive.
Yes. There is a related issue, which is that a lot of people just can't accept that something they like is actually detrimental. Since I've never drank, I never experienced this specific kind of cognitive dissonance (if you can even call it that), but I've seen in so many people, it's depressing. There are some things that I love despite knowing that they are bad for your health (like certain unhealhty foods), but I would hate to deceive myself about it (knowing that they are bad allows me to manage the risks, like being aware that I should reduce consumption if I'm indulging too much). But a lot of people have the exact opposite attitude. Which is curious, because the damages are some times very obvious.
> but we should be able to at least acknowledge that any alcohol in any amount is self destructive.
Is driving in any amount self-destructive? Eating bacon?
If we're going to call mildly (or moderately) unhealthy things "self-destructive", what term should we use for... well, truly self-destructive things?
> People will point to all of the supposed "social lubricant" benefits etc... of drinking culture, but I'm not convinced it's anything but a band-aid on some combination of social anxiety and existential dread.
If it's not alcohol it's drugs, if it's not drugs it's gambling. If it's not gambling it's approaching women at the bar. If it's not approaching women at the bar it's speeding.
People have a deep need to do something that entails risk or that it's frowned upon (or both).
Cultures where this doesn't happen such as Japan are essentially dying and going extinct and so is Europe and US aelbit at a slower rate. Will rightfully get replaced by cultures who DGAF and have a high turnover rate such as the Arab world, Indians and Sub-Saharan Africa
But every culture has been using intoxicants to change their head space for as far back as we can see. Everything from marijuana, alcohol, hallucinogens, dissociative, stimulants etc. as and everyday part of human life. Might we not have evolved to somewhat “require” it in some ways?
The flaw with that line of thinking is that we are not robots (LaMDA and Zuck, you can stop reading now).
We don't always (want to) make optimal decisions based only on how objectively healthy they are, and that's perfectly fine, and not really "self-destructive" in the sense you're implying. There's an adage somewhere about living health and becoming a beautiful, healthy corpse some day.
Alcohol is bad. Maybe cutting it entirely from your life will get you an average 0.56% increased life span. Will it be worth it?
This isn't to say being a drunkard is good, or that widespread alcohol consumption can't be a problem (see Russia's and native Americans' history).
I agree with this. If you're a regular social drinker it requires quite a bit of self-reflection and lifestyle adjustment to stop drinking entirely, which is the hurdle a lot of people face. But anecdotally/personally I find that it's immensely worth it.
Might still have a glass of bubbly in celebration of something or enjoy the occasional wine tour at a vineyard, but I have no real intent to continue drinking regularly. The health tradeoffs aren't worth it to me.
Note also that unfortunately it seems women are much more sensitive to the risks of alcohol than men. I'm not a big fan of this "mommy needs her wine" culture we have.
> Something is seriously wrong with humanity if poisoning ourselves regularly to dissociate with reality remains this popular as a core social component.
Yes something is deeply wrong with human nature, and human existence is largely suffering no matter how you try to mask it.
I agree that it's a bandaid but what solution are you proposing? There is of course the option to simply exit the game, but for various biological reasons this is a real challenge.
Poisoning ourselves regularly and feeling good doing it sounds like a reasonable compromise.
While this goes against the intent of the thread, I'll note that only buying a limited amount of lower gravity beer occasionally can be fairly effective in pacing yourself.
[+] [-] Steve44|3 years ago|reply
I really love exploring different drinks, mainly beers and spirits although I do still enjoy some wine. There is such a wide array available, it's a wonderful 'hobby'.
With cask beers you get the initial mouthfeel of what I think is the live yeast coupled with some natural carbonation; it's not at all like a gassy fizzy drink more like a gentle tingling over the mouth. Some beers then deliver 10-30 seconds of different malt flavours with some being very biscuity or others more chocolaty. There can then the several waves of hops coming over depending how it's brewed. With one mouthful you get to enjoy and savour all those flavours and textures for a good minute with a lingering taste lasting much longer, they ebb and flow like a roller-coaster.
Spirits and cocktails are the same, the depths of flavours can be absolutely wonderful. A well balanced Negroni for example can be a very complex drink.
I've found some alcohol free drinks than can be built up to be a little interesting, but nothing comes close for the expanse and depth. I presume that the alcohol is volatile and is a key part of driving the other flavours, perhaps in a similar way to salt is a flavour enhancer.
[+] [-] boplicity|3 years ago|reply
I wish more people talked about how dangerous alcohol truly is. Yes, it can be perfectly fine to drink. However, it also commonly leads to severe outcomes that are often outside of our control, and that harm us even if we don't even drink alcohol.
[+] [-] RandyRanderson|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lcnPylGDnU4H9OF|3 years ago|reply
I was about to ask what harm you thought was caused (not in an argumentative way, just curious) when I remembered driving (among others, but that one is far more obvious). Yeah, duh.
[+] [-] kloch|3 years ago|reply
My dad was so good at managing his alcoholism - didn't seem to have any problems with work or dui's, nobody thought they needed to intervene until it was too late. One day he just collapsed at work and was taken to the hospital.
Just yesterday a drunk driver rear ended me while I was stopped at a traffic light in the middle of the day. It was just a light tap on the bumper but the road has a 55 MPh speed limit. What if he hit me going 60? Would I still be alive today?
[+] [-] 2-718-281-828|3 years ago|reply
having said that I am personally going through some changes. and for some reason I observed the past weeks how I don't enjoy drinking alcohol anymore. not because of healthy considerations on a rational level but just the feeling it gives me. the buzz seems to be gone and instead I'm left with an unpleasant drowsiness that lingers for way too long. I have never been an excessive drinker. I'm wondering what caused this change as it seems to be stemming from a more fundamental neurological or physiological level. I got vaccinated this year more than ten times (especially recently) due to upcoming travels and I stopped drinking coffee three months ago. might one of this contribute?
something else to consider. the host of the podcast is affiliated with a nootropic company and advertises its products at the beginning of the clip. nootropics are generally about "take this pill every day and you will feel better". directly related is the idea of "don't do this any more and you'll feel better". I'd keep that in mind consuming the presented arguments.
[+] [-] wheelerof4te|3 years ago|reply
So, I call BS.
[+] [-] Mtinie|3 years ago|reply
For many of us, one drink leads to more drinks at which point the physiological and psychological changes covered in the linked article become amplified.
[+] [-] kennedywm|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] npwr|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] joekrill|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] beebmam|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] russelldjimmy|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jjulius|3 years ago|reply
>So, I call BS.
You, not others. You, who is but one single data point in a vast sea of data points.
[+] [-] ilaksh|3 years ago|reply
It's a very powerful psychological tool for promoting alcohol consumption and suppressing anti-alcohol messaging. It may even make some people continue drinking just to prove that they can "handle it" and are not genetic failures. Or even prevent people from admitting they decided to stop drinking, because someone may conclude that you are therefore genetically flawed (alcoholic).
This particular aspect is probably one of the things I hate most about our culture.
[+] [-] TakeBlaster16|3 years ago|reply
[1]: https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/s0140-6736(10)61462-6
https://i.imgur.com/DQDJMGt.png
[+] [-] throwcean|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] boplicity|3 years ago|reply
This is what gets me about alcohol: You can completely avoid drinking it, and yet it causes more harm to others than it does to users.
The negative cost of alcohol use on those who don't even drink it is a real issue that should be more commonly talked about and addressed.
[+] [-] jotm|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] atwood22|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sysadm1n|3 years ago|reply
There's nothing you can really do except wait a bad hangover out and let your body repair itself after essentially ingesting poison. Lucozade is another thing we have over here in the UK which is lauded as a 'curer' for hangovers. Apparently your blood sugar drops dramatically after imbibing heavily and glucose drinks bring your blood sugar back up quickly.
That and Solpadeine if you have a bad headache after (Solpadeine contains codeine which is a powerful analgesic).
[+] [-] gsibble|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lapcat|3 years ago|reply
I'm not trying to preach, other than to say that it is possible to break from a habit of drinking and leave it behind, if you've considered that. To be sure, I wasn't ever technically an "alcoholic", just a... normal Wisconsinite LOL. (For a laugh, here's Lewis Black on drinking in Wisconsin https://youtu.be/9m-cQin1qKE )
[+] [-] csours|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mstipetic|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bilekas|3 years ago|reply
But I know my limit. I know when I feel like having another "just because" is usually a big "okay enough now"
As I'm getting older I can't drink much anymore. But wine with dinner is almost a daily thing with my partner. One to two glasses only but anymore and I'll feel a bit "off" the next day.
[+] [-] blinded|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] odshoifsdhfs|3 years ago|reply
Aldi brand non alcoholic ones are actually ok, and can hit the spot, but wouldn't call them 'good!
And forget about non-alcoholic wine, that shit is awful.
Being buying low alcoholic gin (Beefeater 20%) and whiskey (Ballantines 20%). They are ok. Not perfect, but they have enough 'zing' to make them pleasant.
[+] [-] faebi|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aworks|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] AndrewKemendo|3 years ago|reply
Something is seriously wrong with humanity if poisoning ourselves regularly to dissociate with reality remains this popular as a core social component. People will point to all of the supposed "social lubricant" benefits etc... of drinking culture, but I'm not convinced it's anything but a band-aid on some combination of social anxiety and existential dread.
I fully support anyone doing whatever they like with their body, but we should be able to at least acknowledge that any alcohol in any amount is self destructive.
I say this as a former Beer and Whiskey nerd by the way.
[+] [-] selectodude|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] atwood22|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mrguyorama|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nicbou|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gordaco|3 years ago|reply
Yes. There is a related issue, which is that a lot of people just can't accept that something they like is actually detrimental. Since I've never drank, I never experienced this specific kind of cognitive dissonance (if you can even call it that), but I've seen in so many people, it's depressing. There are some things that I love despite knowing that they are bad for your health (like certain unhealhty foods), but I would hate to deceive myself about it (knowing that they are bad allows me to manage the risks, like being aware that I should reduce consumption if I'm indulging too much). But a lot of people have the exact opposite attitude. Which is curious, because the damages are some times very obvious.
[+] [-] strikelaserclaw|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] balfirevic|3 years ago|reply
Is driving in any amount self-destructive? Eating bacon? If we're going to call mildly (or moderately) unhealthy things "self-destructive", what term should we use for... well, truly self-destructive things?
[+] [-] Bubble_Pop_22|3 years ago|reply
If it's not alcohol it's drugs, if it's not drugs it's gambling. If it's not gambling it's approaching women at the bar. If it's not approaching women at the bar it's speeding.
People have a deep need to do something that entails risk or that it's frowned upon (or both).
Cultures where this doesn't happen such as Japan are essentially dying and going extinct and so is Europe and US aelbit at a slower rate. Will rightfully get replaced by cultures who DGAF and have a high turnover rate such as the Arab world, Indians and Sub-Saharan Africa
[+] [-] bergenty|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lbrito|3 years ago|reply
We don't always (want to) make optimal decisions based only on how objectively healthy they are, and that's perfectly fine, and not really "self-destructive" in the sense you're implying. There's an adage somewhere about living health and becoming a beautiful, healthy corpse some day.
Alcohol is bad. Maybe cutting it entirely from your life will get you an average 0.56% increased life span. Will it be worth it?
This isn't to say being a drunkard is good, or that widespread alcohol consumption can't be a problem (see Russia's and native Americans' history).
[+] [-] soco|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] carbine|3 years ago|reply
Might still have a glass of bubbly in celebration of something or enjoy the occasional wine tour at a vineyard, but I have no real intent to continue drinking regularly. The health tradeoffs aren't worth it to me.
Note also that unfortunately it seems women are much more sensitive to the risks of alcohol than men. I'm not a big fan of this "mommy needs her wine" culture we have.
[+] [-] disantlor|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] time_to_smile|3 years ago|reply
Yes something is deeply wrong with human nature, and human existence is largely suffering no matter how you try to mask it.
I agree that it's a bandaid but what solution are you proposing? There is of course the option to simply exit the game, but for various biological reasons this is a real challenge.
Poisoning ourselves regularly and feeling good doing it sounds like a reasonable compromise.
[+] [-] havblue|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] pizzaknife|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] picsao|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]