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The silent majority in software

291 points| bndr | 3 years ago |vadimkravcenko.com | reply

353 comments

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[+] dollo_7|3 years ago|reply
I may belong to that silent majority. I have learnt a lot from the discussions here in HN and other sites, but I rarely participate on them. This post made me think about being a little more active because, sincerely, most of the times it is just laziness what prevents me from commenting anything.

In fact, this is my first comment here in HN. Little by little.

[+] veltas|3 years ago|reply
I will say that in my own experience, if you go against the zeitgeist on HN you can often get by as long as you're sensitive/respectful and intelligent on the issue. There are people who downvote things they disagree with, but I think most people on here downvote people who sound unconstructive or argumentative.

And at the end of the day, if you're respectful etc, who cares about being downvoted or having people argue back to you? Just take it on the chin.

[+] the_omegist|3 years ago|reply
For me it's more that I think a comment should really "bring something" : a new perspective or a complement of information.

That's why there are places on the internet (like here) where, usually, I don't find the usual online fluff content.

[+] oars|3 years ago|reply
There are thousands of Java developers in the US who make $80,000 a year and live a fantastic life.

No leetcode, no Bay Area, no FAANG.

Just people writing the code responsible for our banking, travel, supermarkets and many other systems which underpin our society.

[+] danwee|3 years ago|reply
I know many developers (over 35 years old) in Europe doing the same (they earn above the average european salary, so like 140K EUR/year or so): Java, no HN, no Linkedin, no FAANG, no leetcode, no switching jobs every 2 years. They have families, they are normal people. If you ask them about monads, they would have no idea (like me) what are you talking about. That's the path I'm heading to (hopefully).
[+] jonahss|3 years ago|reply
My friend’s father is a firmware engineer in Bulgaria and he hadn’t even heard of Rust. I’ve noticed that it takes a looong time for technologies to propagate globally
[+] cutler|3 years ago|reply
$80,000 is hardly the measure of a true professional these days surely?
[+] googlryas|3 years ago|reply
Don't forget the silent majority in FANGs either. A lot of us aren't working on crazy machine learning models, were just copying protobufs from one form to another.
[+] fragmede|3 years ago|reply
Could be worse, could be GCL or borgmon.
[+] jongjong|3 years ago|reply
I used to be part of the silent majority of software developers but that changed after I became disillusioned about the direction of the industry. Nowadays, I'm basically forced to use certain inefficient tools in order to get a job because a bunch of highly vocal junior devs who got their way.

It's a bit like in politics; when times are good for the majority, most normal people aren't interested in politics; they have better things to do; this apathy makes it easier for freaks to get power and start messing with things... Until it gets so bad that regular people start noticing and begrudgingly getting involved in politics.

[+] donatj|3 years ago|reply
I am regularly up at night in a cold sweat worrying about how if I suddenly needed to find a new job I’d have to learn some sort of front end JavaScript framework.
[+] camgunz|3 years ago|reply
While I admit to enjoying some of the debate aerobics on HN, this is the prime reason I try and give my voice to some of the discussion here. I kind of view it similarly to voting: you have to make your opinions known.

It's had the pleasant side effect of also educating me on quite a lot--mixing in with people with different experiences and values has enriched my life, so I think it's a win-win. I just try and be careful to not get too wound up: that's the failure case haha (I'm not saying constantly check your blood pressure while using HN, but I'm not not saying it).

[+] azemetre|3 years ago|reply
Would you mind sharing some things that juniors have forced that you think are bad?

I’ve recently switched jobs and my team doesn’t write integration tests for our services but rather manually test them with postman. It’s definitely odd and very inefficient.

[+] Existenceblinks|3 years ago|reply
Yeah. This is happening, look around job board. A lot of job description look really dumb, tech stack doesn't make sense for their business at all.
[+] specialist|3 years ago|reply
FWIW, every generation feels this way.

Older me is now super embarrassed by my prior enthusiasm for object oriented programming and misc methodologies. I have very vivid memories of grey beards dismissing my naivety and me thinking "they just didn't get it." [0]

If there's any kind of karma, today's noobs will live long enough to be mocked by even younger noobs.

Small solace, I know.

[0] I always remember criticisms. I've got the voice of doubt in the back of my head always wondering what I'm missing, what if they're right, etc. It's a serious bummer.

[+] goodpoint|3 years ago|reply
Same here. Many popular and needlessly complex tools, especially around devops... used only because they are popular.

Even worse, people don't even bother to look at other options even if it's just to learn from them.

Compare the new hip thing with a different one and people get defensive.

[+] ttpphd|3 years ago|reply
There's nothing quite like an author getting basic history completely wrong at the very beginning. Really builds confidence.
[+] lvturner|3 years ago|reply
What color is the bike-shed?
[+] trasz|3 years ago|reply
Nixon’s internal politics isn’t “basic history” anywhere except US.
[+] hot_gril|3 years ago|reply
And it's even the title of the article.
[+] astura|3 years ago|reply
I'm flagging this; it's marketing drivel[1] devout of any sort of substance or insight. The author of the post is the submitter.

[1] the marketing here is a CTO position himself as some sort of "though leader," which I wouldn't be opposed to, if there was some sort of substance.

[+] donatj|3 years ago|reply
> Sometimes I’ve seen Pull Requests from empty accounts with a brief explanation of what was implemented. They just submit bug fixes, no drama.

Over half my coworkers including some very talented developers have no public repos. As someone with almost 200 that always blows my mind.

How do you work in software for years and not find some little hole you want to fill. That’s not a judgment call, that’s an honest question on my part. I want to understand.

[+] silisili|3 years ago|reply
> Usually, the comments on HN/Reddit are polarised by a single group of people who have the same opinion,

Can't speak for Reddit, but that's not at all the case here. For example, I often speak of my hatred of microservices here. I'll get some upvotes and agreement, some people telling me it's a dumb opinion, and some people telling me we're doing it wrong and explain their right way. Believe it or not, I learn a lot from different people and their experiences.

I can't think of a single topic that seems to be prevelant here that doesn't have a sizeable amount of disagreement, in fact. And I wouldn't have it any other way.

[+] eternityforest|3 years ago|reply
I don't think microservices are silent majority. They seem like more of a blogger architect who likes to tinker with stuff thing.

I would expect the true silent majority just uses monoliths. If it works and doesn't make people complain every day when they work on it, why use a microservice? That's more work.

Everyone likes to think of microservices as a modern high tech thing, but to me it seems like old fashioned unix stuff, that appeals to people who enjoy doing simple weekend projects, trying to make their job into a series of tiny projects of the type they might do at home for fun.

The focus seems more on individual parts than on the vision of the complete project.

Of course it seems to just mostly move complexity into the high level gluing it all together, and spread it out in bits of interface code, but if you are more interested in working on simple but interesting challenges, and don't mind the more hands on dev ops maintenance work, and aren't that into building complex systems, I imagine you would like it.

[+] jonshariat|3 years ago|reply
I think your experience actually proves the point and touches on why many dangerous and crazy POV have also been getting so much air time in the news.

Let's say you have 2 opposing POV: A or B

"A" has a silent majority so only 5 of the 5,000 people post a comment about A being the right POV.

"B" is a passionate minority so 5 of the 50 people post a comment about B being the right POV.

To the viewer, it looks like a balanced discussion and a topic open to much debate, both sides have equal voice but in reality "A" is by far the most accepted position.

[+] politelemon|3 years ago|reply
> but that's not at all the case here.

Very sorry but it absolutely is the case here. Your anecdotal data is limited to you, but HN very much operates as a hive mind, it just hides it better.

Considering this place to be "superior" to other places only leads to complacence and further strengthens the echo chamber.

[+] hot_gril|3 years ago|reply
The phrase "HN/Reddit" is weird by itself. This place feels so different from Reddit.
[+] lifeisstillgood|3 years ago|reply
I have a slightly different view on microservices. They are not a technical solution but a business solution. Technically it's a fairly dumb idea ... but if every microservices is actually a tiny business function (that is some "atom" of the domain) then suddenly the business can see and manipulate and monitor and see stats in usage for each atom of its processes. Things become isibke that were hidden in giant "oh the refund section of screen four does that and bobbys team is working on that".

I think Programmer Anarchy was a early adopter of microservices and as they ran a business as developers I think this may have been useful

[+] grog454|3 years ago|reply
> Usually, the comments on HN/Reddit are polarised by a single group of people who have the same opinion,

> polarize: divide or cause to divide into two sharply contrasting groups or sets of opinions or beliefs. > "the cultural sphere has polarized into two competing ideological positions"

Hmm...

[+] brynjolf|3 years ago|reply
I also think HN usually come from the same background with predominantly comments from California USA or USA in general.

Compare any topic relating to capatilism, the plights of the low income classes or politics in general. I often amuse myself comparing the takes between the two sites relating it those topics.

Also HN is more clinical, it discussed the death of Swedish reporter like it was a cold case ready to be ripped through.

And also more easily distracted by seemingly innocent open questions like in politics for example "Why is it X job to care about this?" since you can't dismiss it with a short meme it creates discussion that the OP only wanted to distract from the original article.

Apart from that HN discourse is 100% better than reddit and I agree with you in some terms.

[+] jrm4|3 years ago|reply
It's getting better, but e.g. try talking about race.
[+] mikewarot|3 years ago|reply
There is a tendency towards proactive change here on HN, which is fine with this old retired programmer. I'm all for making new systems that utilize all that's been learned since the 1960s.

What I'm NOT in favor of is the disrespect of legacy. There are millions of systems out there in the world in manufacturing environments. These systems are ancient, I worked in a shop making gears for 5 years. The CNC lathe we used had a GE computer running it from 1970, and it used mylar punched tape to store programs. It was a huge investment when it was purchased, and there was an old guy (about 70) who they called for repairs on it and much of the other ancient hardware. This shop had 6 employees, including me. At it's peak, there were 50 or so, during and after the Viet Nam war.

That hardware was sooooo old, but it still worked, reliably turning out the same few types of shafts and other parts we need to turn into gears and splines and other gear shaped objects (like turbine blades).

The programmer in me desperately wanted to keep the lathe, the motor, and just replace the control system with GRBL, but even if that was free, and worked the first time, the risk that an upgrade represented was completely unacceptable.

When you're in a job shop, there are parts you've been making for a generation in small quantities (less than 500). Those parts are relied upon by other businesses as part of their product. If you "upgrade" any part of your process, you risk producing a part which doesn't work somewhere down the supply chain. If you make that happen too many times, you'll lose your customers.

It's also important to know that gear cutting was only a step in the production chain... we didn't start from raw materials most of the time, we were given a "blank" on which to cut teeth, that already had many operations performed on it. It was almost never just a matter of sawing off a new piece of metal and starting over. You had to respect the work already put into a gear blank, or shaft to cut splines on.

The incentives in manufacturing are strongly against any type of change. However, they aren't blindly obeyed. If there are new jobs, then it's reasonable to try out the new machines or new systems in those cases. If something can cut the cost of a part by half, then it might be worth the risk, if the customer approves a change.

Please don't think that those in the silent majority of the world are un-reflective of the needs for security and other patches... but if things break every Wednesday, they'll disable Windows Updates forever, for very good reason.

[+] nonrandomstring|3 years ago|reply
I think what the author says is true. The mass of digital workers use older, established and unfashionable technology, and are neither vocal nor particularly curious about the work.

But there's an implication of moral purity at play. Are those who just quietly "mind their own business" a good, wholesome but misrepresented group?

On the contrary, I think that in matters with far reaching consequences, which computing is, silent majorities are the problem. Unreflectively going along with the programme becomes a kind of passive negligence which should not be lionised in a folksy way.

[+] etothepii|3 years ago|reply
> First of all, when you're vocal, you're more likely to be heard.

Why is being heard a good thing? When I was at school I was the insufferable kid who always put their hand up as I knew the answer. Thinking somehow that the teacher wanted to know the answer. What I learned as I grew up is a lesson learned is better than a lesson told.

[+] Joel_Mckay|3 years ago|reply
I’d argue people greatly underestimate confinement by the Status Quo, or producing what stakeholders asked for... rather than what they needed. As an engineer one may have opinions about how things should be done, but in reality it is often not really your call if you are just an employee.

Put another way, if you are not listening to the person who signs the checks, than your career will be rather short.

"Nor would a wise man, seeing that he was in a hole, go to work and blindly dig it deeper..." (The Washington Post October 25, 1911)

[+] swyx|3 years ago|reply
also known as the "one percent rule" - 90% of people passively view content, 9% comment on content, 1% create

(i've written on it here and how it does favor creators https://www.swyx.io/puwtpd#why-does-this-work-on-them )

[+] Jensson|3 years ago|reply
I don't think that 10% comments, the numbers I remember are 10% votes and 1% comments. And looking at some random topics it seems to be roughly there, 10% comments is way too high.
[+] omega3|3 years ago|reply
I'd go further than this and say out of that 1% who create content further 99% shouldn't.
[+] lytefm|3 years ago|reply
I'd suppose that on a personal level and for HN, activity also changes with experience.

I've been passively reading HN for a few years as a junior dev after my team lead introduced the site to my before even creating an account.

I've been making comments on a few topics of interest now and then in the past three years.

Since a few months I feel like "yeah, I should probably write some docs + blog posts" which might be interesting to other HN readers.

I've also noticed that some HN users write a lot of comments to any kind of post whereas others mainly commment on articles related to their are of expertise.

[+] jillesvangurp|3 years ago|reply
It's not just that they are silent, most of them don't even speak English that well; or at all. And they build a lot of software. And they are all over the world. Any tech stack that ever mattered, there are still countless of people using working with that on a daily basis.

There are a lot of developers out there, tens of millions. That little bubble of users actually commenting on HN is tiny in comparison. So, yes it's good to be aware of that and appreciate the world is bigger than that. At the same time, like with politics, just because they are silent does not mean they don't have opinions. And they vote. With their feet. They'll adopt practices, tools, and technology they like or need and walk away from other things.

[+] kilburn|3 years ago|reply
> While browsing HackerNews, [...] you might think that PHP is never used nowadays because whenever it’s mentioned, everyone is hating on it in the comments.

This is one of those things that "everyone knows". It may have been true at some point, but it definitely isn't true anymore. The reality is that most discussons here treat PHP fairly, giving it credit where it deserves it and also pointing out its weaknesses.

Examples:

- (2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32325055 : top comment praising PHP

- (2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30219984 : the top comment is a fairly positive comment overall, without falling into zealotry.

- (2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19917655 : the top comment is someone praising Laravel and the "modern" approach to php. The general feeling is that PHP got some things right (shared-nothing), doesn't offer anything particularly unique but is surprisingly effective in reality.

[+] kodah|3 years ago|reply
> There also seems to be an assumption on HN/Reddit that vocal activity on the internet, in any form — be that videos, blogging, podcasts, etc. — is proportional to activity behind the screen.

Personally, I dislike this attitude. I think the internet is a good signal for what will be in the streets in 2-4 years time unabated. The attitude OP reflects is one that was valid in the 90s and early 2000s, but not today.

[+] tannhaeuser|3 years ago|reply
No, I think that's very wrong, now more than ever. What you read "on the internet" is almost always fabricated and published with manipulative intent and asymetric capabilities to promote a product, lang/skill, or whatever. It's the negative comments you should care about.
[+] the_omegist|3 years ago|reply
I totally disagree. Slacktivism is a thing. It's easy, especially when you're jobless or still at school or without any social life or hobbies to be an activist online. It's less easy when you have to face the material world.

Moreover "the internet", whatever the meaning, is not a faithful representation of the "real world". Go tell the millions of people without toilets or working the whole day the slacktivists spending their days on twitter represent their struggle...

[+] ChrisMarshallNY|3 years ago|reply
Reminds me of a story that was linked from here, a few years ago[0].

Places like this, get caught up in “shiny,” and that doesn’t always reflect reality.

For example, it is fashionable, hereabout, to throw shade on PHP.

I present Exhibit A, the “Fishtank Graph”[1].

We were just discussing something similar, yesterday, in the SwiftUI thread[2].

[0] https://vickiboykis.com/2019/05/10/it-runs-on-java-8/

[1] https://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programmin...

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32631219

[+] devmunchies|3 years ago|reply
Thanks for the article.

I do feel like engineers who put themselves out there and engage on HN, Github, Chat groups, etc, get "polished" and get better as engineers, assuming that association in these forums causes them to read more code or think about paradigms.

If "silent" are mostly keeping to themselves, they might have some of their own innovations independent from mainstream engineering, but lack common knowledge, which can be accounted for by reading a lot of programming books, release notes, docs, etc.

Unrelated, some unsolicited feedback for bloggers, I like to click on images to zoom in (quicker than ctrl+equal 5 times). So at the very least please wrap the images in a link to the image src. a humble request.

[+] ksec|3 years ago|reply
>While browsing HackerNews, I sometimes get the feeling that every developer out there is working for FAANG

Bubbles on HN;

Entry level Web Developers are getting $200K per year working in FAANG or Big Tech. Non-FANNG are getting $150K anyway.

Ruby may be dead, but PHP is even more dead.

Java may rule the enterprise, but you should not mention Java.

No one uses Oracle or MySQL, why would you want that? Postgres is the only DB forward.

Everything should be Remote. Communication should always be Async.

Oh, Ada is the second Forbidden Fruit on HN.

Facebook is...... OK I guess we shouldn't go there.

USB-C will solve all cabling problems. Everything should be USB-C.

5G is useless.

AV1 and AVIF. The video and image standard to rule them all.

Nothing should be centralised. Everything should be distributed.

Finally, The unwritten rule of HN. You do not criticise The Rusted Holy Grail and the Riscy Silver Bullet.

[+] Barrin92|3 years ago|reply
made me think of a thread here recently, can't remember which one exactly, that had the general tone of "who even develops on Windows?". People in the .Net ecosystem at least it seems like are very underrepresented here given how large of a platform that is.