> The tax authorities say the software could eventually be used to find undeclared home extensions, patios or gazebos, which also play a part in property taxes.
Well, let's not be over optimistic. The PM in charge of the project on the taxe administration side is probably happy that his project is going well. However, different branches of the state are already doing that with tree line and tree coverage change for farmers subsidies. That project is not going well because of the large amount of false positives.
Trying to spot undeclared house extension will very likely follow the same path because the problem is infinitely more difficult, the data ("cadastre") is messy and Capgemini is absolutely not capable of handling that complexity by lack of skills and experience.
ok but if the tax authorities in France are anything like the tax authorities in other countries they will levy the taxes and it's up to you to prove a false positive while the fines etc. rack up.
This is redicolous. At some point we have admit as a civilisation we have failed, when there are drones or sattelites taking fotos of our back yards -all the time- just do idenfiy those 10 people in a neigbourhood that have "saved" 300 bucks a year.
I mean sure its France where they think a little different about privacy, but you can make sure that once the quality is good enough, someone will put your naked butt on the internet, because they found them while doing "routine work"-
And no, neither google earth or bing or apple have detailed enough picture quality to identify anything. on purpose. That will not however be true for the drone your local gov uses.
Im not trying to create a state of naked people either, but the point still stand that if you need this tech to find a couple of pools, you might as well put cameras everywhere.
That's a ridiculous argumentation. This infrastructure was not built or maintained "just do idenfiy those 10 people in a neigbourhood that have "saved" 300 bucks a year". It exists for lots of different, likely more useful use cases, and this is just another added usecase that can utilise already existing infrastructure for no added cost.
Your statement is comparable to calling it ridiculous that we have roads "just so an ice cream truck can sell ice cones to neighbourhood kids during the summer". That's obviously not the main use case for roads.
Yes, there are aerial photos since the 50s, no, it's not possible for humans to scan all of them, not in a life time.
> 10 people in a neigbourhood that have "saved" 300 bucks a year.
That's not the point.
The points are:
- social justice, if I pay you have to pay. If you don't pay taxes to IRS what happens? I bet they use a lot more than AI to find people who eludes them...
- undisclosed pools (and other undisclosed properties) are a proxy for other illegal activities. For example in Italy villas of sentenced criminals are usually hidden. This way the State could find them and confiscate them.
Anyway in Italy they have already discovered more than 20 thousand undisclosed pools. And the job is not done yet.
EDIT: I work in an insurance company, we use similar techniques to identify buildings in satellite images and compare them to same pictures after a flood or a fire, to estimate damages.
It could be done by human eyes, It would take years.
This way clients are reimbursed swiftly and can start rebuilding what has been damaged.
You don't need very detailed imagery to spot a swimming pool. The Google earth type images are enough.
It can also be used to spot building extensions etc. And it also gives a hint on other cheating and crime, for example if the household is on benefits, pays no tax and all of a sudden a pool pops up in the garden. It might still be legit, but at least an investigation can be done.
Sure it might be seen a bit over the top, but what are the alternatives? If people do not declare when it is taxable, then things might need to be enforced. Sure these taxes could be removed, but at the same time it might be fair to tax people who can afford building a pool. Probably better than increasing tax on work.
They call it "AI", but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they've just run some basic pattern recognition on their stock of aerial GIS imagery, searching for blueish rectangles on land tagged as residential. It's probably the sort of thing that could have also been done 20 years ago or even more.
It looks like there are two sides: people who want to buy a house and want it to cost a sane amount of money, and people who own a house and want it to increase in price. The latter would obviously ridicule this.
Maybe if there weren't taxes on so many things and the system were more reasonable, easier to navigate, and easier to understand, people would be more compliant. It's annoying that government in most western countries insists on involvement in so many aspects of daily life. This is meant as a general comment, not specific to France.
To bring some context, temporary above ground pools are exempted, I don’t know if the software makes the distinction, but the global system software + tax people has to make it.
I can’t think they’re after people who don’t declare their pools. They’re after people who build swimming pools on land where it’s illegal to build them, making the value of their land much higher than it is worth.
In france there are tons of places where it’s illegal to build pools, but if no one notices for 10 years, you’re officially off the hook, so a lot of people try their luck.
The firemen too like to have swimming pools around in dry areas as water reserves. So even if someone finds out about your pool, you may still get away with a fine.
[+] [-] Fiahil|3 years ago|reply
Well, let's not be over optimistic. The PM in charge of the project on the taxe administration side is probably happy that his project is going well. However, different branches of the state are already doing that with tree line and tree coverage change for farmers subsidies. That project is not going well because of the large amount of false positives.
Trying to spot undeclared house extension will very likely follow the same path because the problem is infinitely more difficult, the data ("cadastre") is messy and Capgemini is absolutely not capable of handling that complexity by lack of skills and experience.
[+] [-] bryanrasmussen|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Closi|3 years ago|reply
It would be pretty easy to just detect new extensions by looking at historical satellite images, and then manually check if they had approval.
[+] [-] InCityDreams|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jhoelzel|3 years ago|reply
I mean sure its France where they think a little different about privacy, but you can make sure that once the quality is good enough, someone will put your naked butt on the internet, because they found them while doing "routine work"-
And no, neither google earth or bing or apple have detailed enough picture quality to identify anything. on purpose. That will not however be true for the drone your local gov uses.
Im not trying to create a state of naked people either, but the point still stand that if you need this tech to find a couple of pools, you might as well put cameras everywhere.
[+] [-] relix|3 years ago|reply
Your statement is comparable to calling it ridiculous that we have roads "just so an ice cream truck can sell ice cones to neighbourhood kids during the summer". That's obviously not the main use case for roads.
[+] [-] peoplefromibiza|3 years ago|reply
Yes, there are aerial photos since the 50s, no, it's not possible for humans to scan all of them, not in a life time.
> 10 people in a neigbourhood that have "saved" 300 bucks a year.
That's not the point.
The points are:
- social justice, if I pay you have to pay. If you don't pay taxes to IRS what happens? I bet they use a lot more than AI to find people who eludes them...
- undisclosed pools (and other undisclosed properties) are a proxy for other illegal activities. For example in Italy villas of sentenced criminals are usually hidden. This way the State could find them and confiscate them.
Anyway in Italy they have already discovered more than 20 thousand undisclosed pools. And the job is not done yet.
EDIT: I work in an insurance company, we use similar techniques to identify buildings in satellite images and compare them to same pictures after a flood or a fire, to estimate damages.
It could be done by human eyes, It would take years.
This way clients are reimbursed swiftly and can start rebuilding what has been damaged.
[+] [-] mellavora|3 years ago|reply
We have a (small, legal) pool. One year we bought that inflatable green alligator pool toy which was so popular -- one of these https://the-hollywood-gossip-res.cloudinary.com/iu/s--WNibF2...
There was a time you could see our pool alligator on google earth.
[+] [-] overtonwhy|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] flakeoil|3 years ago|reply
It can also be used to spot building extensions etc. And it also gives a hint on other cheating and crime, for example if the household is on benefits, pays no tax and all of a sudden a pool pops up in the garden. It might still be legit, but at least an investigation can be done.
Sure it might be seen a bit over the top, but what are the alternatives? If people do not declare when it is taxable, then things might need to be enforced. Sure these taxes could be removed, but at the same time it might be fair to tax people who can afford building a pool. Probably better than increasing tax on work.
[+] [-] jimjambw|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vegardx|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] melkael|3 years ago|reply
Google is involved in the project. This almost certainly uses google earth’s data
[+] [-] consp|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] turing_complete|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Mordisquitos|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thrown_22|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway290|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jonplackett|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] peoplefromibiza|3 years ago|reply
and why should I pay for it and not you?
[+] [-] XorNot|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] curiousgal|3 years ago|reply
Knowing Capgemini, they have probably charged them €15m for a very subpar solution.
[+] [-] GordonS|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] choko|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] verisimi|3 years ago|reply
Those types of pools aren't the ones AI is being tasked to find of course. Why would AI even try to uncover the nefarious activities of its owners?
Anyway, here's to another governmental (planning, tax department) success! Hurrah!
[+] [-] nraynaud|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] d--b|3 years ago|reply
In france there are tons of places where it’s illegal to build pools, but if no one notices for 10 years, you’re officially off the hook, so a lot of people try their luck.
The firemen too like to have swimming pools around in dry areas as water reserves. So even if someone finds out about your pool, you may still get away with a fine.
It’s all a bit weird
[+] [-] nottorp|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hutzlibu|3 years ago|reply
How else would you do it?
Iterate through the pixels and check for certain blue values? And maybe a small greyish border area? How is that fancy enough?
(I remember helping ecology students with beginners programming, which was what they did, only that they had to check for green)
[+] [-] hexo|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] InCityDreams|3 years ago|reply