Hyundai, Kia, and Audi EVs have paddle shifters which controls the level of regeneration braking and feels very much like downshifting. One paddle (+) steps up the regen to the point where the “drag” gets progressively stronger. The other paddle (-) steps down regen to 0 where the car can coast and there is no regen drag whatsoever. Note this is not the same as Neutral. The car is always in Drive. The function only affects what happens when letting off the power pedal.
The nice thing about the regen paddle mechanical control is the no-look ability at your fingertips to change the car’s response depending on driving context. There are moments when you don’t want the car to tip into a regeneration drag when letting off the power pedal and sometimes you feel the need for the “engine braking” to engage right away.
All the other EVs just have strong regen (B setting) or low regen and the selection is a preset you have to choose either on the screen or somewhere near the shift cluster and isn’t exactly a no-look control you can change on the fly. The older VW Golf EV used to have a stick where you can tap up and down two levels of regen on the fly and that was also a great experience but now buttons have replaced the stick. (Sigh, it was nice while you had it, VW!) The Chevy Bolt has one paddle but it’s designed like a brake-with-your-hands lever when depressed. Not quite the effect of stepping up or down.
In sum, the feeling of downshifting, such as into a turn, can be controlled. On the other hand, there is no need for “upshifting” if the EV had adequate power to get to a high speed. Tesla’s power and torque band is already covering high and low speeds with one gear, although an additional top gear would probably get them to a really insane top speed. I think Toyota’s goal is to eke out more range because they want to use less powerful motors where the power and torque bands would benefit from gearing. My dream is for Tesla to add mechanical paddle shifters and do what Hyundai does.
> Tesla’s power and torque band is already covering high and low speeds with one gear, although an additional top gear would probably get them to a really insane top speed.
Tesla tried that in their original Roadster. It had a two-speed transmission. The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. It was easier to fix the problem on the electric side than the gear side.
There's something to be said for a paddle shifter, but mostly for better control at low speed. For parking and off-road use, it can be helpful to map more pedal angle to a range of low speeds. This is more like the high/low range lever found on off-road vehicles and tractors than like a stick shift.
Mode switches are undesirable because they lead to "wrong mode" accidents. This is an ongoing problem with aircraft automation.
Behavior with zero accelerator and brake is an interesting question. Should the vehicle creep slowly forward? That's a classic feature, or bug, of automatic transmissions. Some automatic transmissions had anti-creep mechanisms to prevent this. If the vehicle comes to a full stop, should releasing the brake initiate creep?
Should the vehicle roll back if on a hill? Some cars have "hill holders" to prevent that. For an electric car, those are all design decisions - the power train has no inherent behavior.
When would you actually need to not have the max regen braking? You can always just push the drive pedal slightly to let the car know you aren’t slowing down, instead.
I have the Niro EV, and it was my first EV. The paddle shifters are amazing, and you get used to them very quickly. I recently rented another EV and I was surprised it wasn't there.
Most of the time I can drive without even touching the brake pedal, since you can hold the left paddle and it will engage maximum engine braking, which it quite powerful. This helps with battery as well since there is less energy loss when braking.
I love driving manual transmission cars but I really don't like this. It's like cosplay for cars. The simulated experience makes it very uncool. I'd rather just let the manual transmission have one last dignified drive into the sunset.
It all depends on the clutch to me. My ADHD is so satisfied by a manual. I’m engaged in the machine. It’s fun and you don’t need a real sports car.
But paddle shifters do nothing for me. There’s no feel to it. It’s more like 3 on the tree.
If the clutch gives it feel and control, I’m in.
Sadly, finding a real manual is hard these days. Most cars don’t offer them. My Honda is stuck in 1 package with a mid-2000s style dash. Still fun to drive.
I should look and see if I could retrofit an Apple Car Play/ Android Auto system in it…
Exactly: a fun activity that's enjoyable to practitioners, and doesn't hurt those who do not partake of it. You wouldn't ban cosplaying if you had the power, would you?
I can't decide whether this is dumber than Dodge making a huge deal about how their new EV Dodge Charger (car not car-charger, oh my god, what a branding screw up) makes authentic loud V8 noises, but they're definitely both stupid. Can we just fast forward to the future where EVs glide around silently and people look both ways before crossing the road?
> EV Dodge Charger (car not car-charger, oh my god, what a branding screw up)
To be fair, the Charger name was created long before it meant "thing you use to plug into an electric device", and the Charger is a very popular vehicle in the Dodge lineup. And you don't abandon popular models without generating negative PR. So Dodge didn't really have a choice.
The acquisition of a patent by a major corporation is not much evidence that it will ever be implemented; it amounts to a relatively cheap option on being able to do so.
Personally, this one seems about as appealing as bringing back the manual ignition advance on gas-engined cars.
It's not all about pedestrians. Take Harley Davidson motorcycles for example. The sound is the brand. It's what people buy (into).
Not saying that's right or wrong. Only that it's not strictly a pedestrian thing.
Since in EVs it's more or less simulated, it would make since to have more than one setting and one of those to be off.
p.s. The Dodge Charger has been ine of Dodge's most successful model. Gazillions of recognition has been invested in that model. They're not going to abandon that. In fact, the name makes more sense as an EV.
The first time I ever saw an EV was in San Francisco, an EV1, somewhere around 2000. It literally was silent at slow speeds. My own first EV was a Leaf which has a noise maker which starts audible and decreases with speed and cuts out at about 20. I don't think my S does this. It should. This sound is a little annoying for the driver but is necessary for pedestrians, particularly blind people.
Above about 20 mph, EVs naturally make plenty of noise for people to realize they’re there and moving. It’s only at low speed that they’re overly quiet for pedestrian awareness.
This is a neat example though of how arbitrary EV drivetrains are. A Toyota marketing exec's (just guessing) FUD about imagined consumer FUD turns into, why don't we just ramp down torque in notches in relation to road speed increments? Of course anyone who buys this is going to try it once then leave it in all-the-torque-all-the-time mode, but that's not the point. I can't say I've met a single three pedal afficionado who bemoaned the lack of shifting after experiencing the mild concussion inducing levels of acceleration of some of these new EV's. If roadgoing gas cars had that kind of torque, they wouldn't shift either, just like the fastest drag cars. There's no point.
You're over generalizing. Not all enthusiasts value the same point. For some including myself, it's not about acceleration or speed. Automatic (DCT and the new ZF8) has long surpassed manual transmission in almost all aspects of performance. It's similar to how some people like manual espresso machines, film cameras, etc. It's a hobby and you enjoy the process. See how the newest Koenigsegg goes great length to make this weird automatic manual.
In snowy conditions you don't actually want all the torque available: then you'd want to control the torque applied instead of the power delivered when starting to move (similar to placing a restriction on the top torque by shifting into second gear on manual shift cars).
I am absolutely a manual gearbox fan for driving experience, and that's in Aus where it's not really idolized like it is in America. A lot more manuals here. But you are dead right. I think because it lacks all of the mechanical apparatus anyway, it's not like driving a regular car in automatic, it's like driving a different kind of vehicle. So you don't miss the gearbox.
All that said, I do appreciate the tendency for Japanese car companies to take care with the act of doing in their cars. I know Porsche gets the trophy for wholistic driving experiences, but Japan is doing a great job of bringing some of that back from the 90s bubble era cars.
The counter argument is that European vehicles are vastly using manual gear, despite the fact that except for a small minority, no one cares about the potential difference in torque.
There is just a lot of people that are used the a certain solution and are resistant to change.
Electric engines are capable of insane torque, but prolonged operation in such a mode is far from efficient, cool and preferable from a reliability standpoint. Two seconds at the green light - yes, plowing your field with a Tesla - no.
So I can see it making sense for vehicles that have have two modes of operation, for example a tractor or all-terain vehicle that also need to work on public roads at relatively high speeds. A manual gear box is ideal in such a setting, because you seldom need to use it and it's very simple, cost effective and reliable. In any case, only useful for an extreme niche of applications.
Seems very similar to paddle shifters in a gas CVT. There's no mechanical connection between the "clutch peddle" and "shifter" to the actual transmission, it is all just fed into a computer and a simulation is created to give the driver a warm fizzy feeling.
If this makes people feel better during the transitional phase, I guess that counts for something, but this is a manual car simulation only.
For some context, the first Tesla Roadster also had a transmission, but Tesla quickly realized that it's far better to simply scale up the motor so that the torque curve is high enough at higher RPMs, electronically cap the torque at low RPM, and remove the transmission altogether. Considering transmissions are one of the most expensive and common major parts to repair in a vehicle, it is astounding that anyone would try to bring it back.
I'm the target audience for this. I know it makes no sense, to make the car slower "shifting" through the gears, but for many of us it's the feel of full control over the car's mechanics. It's similar to the appeal of motorcycles, we ride them because every body input you make matters to the control of it. With all this said, there will still be a market for ICE manual cars for many years to come, it'll sure become more expensive to own one but I guess that'll be the price we'll have to pay. I also don't think the desire to continue driving manual will die off, anecdotally, I was talking to my 10-year old nephew and he seemed enamored with the idea of driving manual especially interested in early 2000s JDM cars, this was a really shock to me tbh I would of never thought this will be relevant with today's youth.
As a clutch enthusiast, I would welcome this innovation if it actually improved EV motor performance. If its only purpose is to simulate the ICE experience, I'm not interested.
I suppose I'm not the target market for this. To me this is just added complexity that increases cost and likelihood of something breaking. I'm still waiting for someone to make a "battery on wheels", an electric car with no extra bells and whistles. I think it could end up being so cheap to own, and also extremely reliable, since electric cars need no transmissions, and almost no maintenance of any kind for that matter. My Leaf needs tires, and... that's about it until 100k miles.
Toyota Tercel SR5, VW Diesel Rabbit, Toyota Pickup, Tacoma, etc. are all enjoyable to drive with a standard (manual) transmission.
It is also a joy to be able to service and replace the clutch when required. Here's to hoping Toyota doesn't break with their history of having vehicles that are easy to work on with cheap plentiful parts available from the dealer even 30 years after it rolls off the production line.
Trying to replace a battery pack on my Nissan Leaf has been a nightmare. Rather than supporting owners, they seem to prefer you treat the vehicle as disposable, given availability, cost, and needed tools to service the EV.
And I thought Toyota had a winner with the Prius. I really like mine (2nd generation, >100kmi, still going strong). I'm a big fan of their "power sharing device" (PSD -- otherwise known as planetary gears). Aside the economics and (fairly) eco-friendliness, it drives quite nice, very smooth. Under the right conditions (flat, smooth road), it feels like gliding. I ride motorcycles too and I learned to drive on a stick shift, but in a car, it's just silly. You want what from me? Selecting the proper gear? What next, adjusting oil pressure?
As a driver of a manual Miata older than I am, I was somewhat pleasantly surprised by this idea. I find this similar to the Fujifilm line of digital cameras with analog-style exposure dials and optical viewfinders; the affordances are objectively worse and largely unnecessary compared to the PASM mode selectors found in almost every other line of camera today, but they make all the difference between the feel of shooting a computer with a lens versus a proper dedicated camera.
I'm glad someone is trying to save the manual transmission baby from the ICE bathwater.
I have to imagine that a smaller torqueband but more gears would make for a more efficient electric vehicle.
The torque from 1000lbs of Li-ion cannot be denied, but are there other options here? Less torque, fewer batteries, less range but still the acceptable acceleration and cruising speeds?
The high end Porches Tycan proved that two gears is a good design, even at the highest end of performance, for example. Lower performance vehicles probably have more opportunity to use gears?
This is awesome, not having a manual transmission is one of the biggest drawbacks of modern cars for myself and presumably many others
Edit: I do have questions about efficiency because I was assume an EV manual may actually be less efficient than an automatic or single speed trans
I like the idea, but I'd rather an ICE conversion with a real drivetrain and transmission and an EV motor. I'll build it myself if no manufacturers will.
As an owner of both a manual transmission car and an EV, I enjoy driving them both, but I don’t want the manual transmission experience with an EV power train.
[+] [-] hbarka|3 years ago|reply
The nice thing about the regen paddle mechanical control is the no-look ability at your fingertips to change the car’s response depending on driving context. There are moments when you don’t want the car to tip into a regeneration drag when letting off the power pedal and sometimes you feel the need for the “engine braking” to engage right away.
All the other EVs just have strong regen (B setting) or low regen and the selection is a preset you have to choose either on the screen or somewhere near the shift cluster and isn’t exactly a no-look control you can change on the fly. The older VW Golf EV used to have a stick where you can tap up and down two levels of regen on the fly and that was also a great experience but now buttons have replaced the stick. (Sigh, it was nice while you had it, VW!) The Chevy Bolt has one paddle but it’s designed like a brake-with-your-hands lever when depressed. Not quite the effect of stepping up or down.
In sum, the feeling of downshifting, such as into a turn, can be controlled. On the other hand, there is no need for “upshifting” if the EV had adequate power to get to a high speed. Tesla’s power and torque band is already covering high and low speeds with one gear, although an additional top gear would probably get them to a really insane top speed. I think Toyota’s goal is to eke out more range because they want to use less powerful motors where the power and torque bands would benefit from gearing. My dream is for Tesla to add mechanical paddle shifters and do what Hyundai does.
[+] [-] Animats|3 years ago|reply
Tesla tried that in their original Roadster. It had a two-speed transmission. The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. It was easier to fix the problem on the electric side than the gear side.
There's something to be said for a paddle shifter, but mostly for better control at low speed. For parking and off-road use, it can be helpful to map more pedal angle to a range of low speeds. This is more like the high/low range lever found on off-road vehicles and tractors than like a stick shift.
Mode switches are undesirable because they lead to "wrong mode" accidents. This is an ongoing problem with aircraft automation.
Behavior with zero accelerator and brake is an interesting question. Should the vehicle creep slowly forward? That's a classic feature, or bug, of automatic transmissions. Some automatic transmissions had anti-creep mechanisms to prevent this. If the vehicle comes to a full stop, should releasing the brake initiate creep? Should the vehicle roll back if on a hill? Some cars have "hill holders" to prevent that. For an electric car, those are all design decisions - the power train has no inherent behavior.
[+] [-] kvark|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lokedhs|3 years ago|reply
Most of the time I can drive without even touching the brake pedal, since you can hold the left paddle and it will engage maximum engine braking, which it quite powerful. This helps with battery as well since there is less energy loss when braking.
[+] [-] terrio|3 years ago|reply
Fine-tuning this doesn't really add any value
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] jjtheblunt|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] baybal2|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] zcw100|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] csw-001|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] salmo|3 years ago|reply
But paddle shifters do nothing for me. There’s no feel to it. It’s more like 3 on the tree.
If the clutch gives it feel and control, I’m in.
Sadly, finding a real manual is hard these days. Most cars don’t offer them. My Honda is stuck in 1 package with a mid-2000s style dash. Still fun to drive.
I should look and see if I could retrofit an Apple Car Play/ Android Auto system in it…
[+] [-] sangnoir|3 years ago|reply
Exactly: a fun activity that's enjoyable to practitioners, and doesn't hurt those who do not partake of it. You wouldn't ban cosplaying if you had the power, would you?
[+] [-] itronitron|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] superchroma|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lm28469|3 years ago|reply
Getting rid of 50% of your car detecting senses doesn't seem like a good idea
[+] [-] kQq9oHeAz6wLLS|3 years ago|reply
To be fair, the Charger name was created long before it meant "thing you use to plug into an electric device", and the Charger is a very popular vehicle in the Dodge lineup. And you don't abandon popular models without generating negative PR. So Dodge didn't really have a choice.
Plus, they can use the pun in witty commercials.
[+] [-] foepys|3 years ago|reply
The reason for this are the tires which have gotten so wide over the past decades that they are now the sole noise you hear from a normal car.
[+] [-] dylan604|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dpatterbee|3 years ago|reply
The future looks bleaker with each passing day
[+] [-] schuke|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mannykannot|3 years ago|reply
Personally, this one seems about as appealing as bringing back the manual ignition advance on gas-engined cars.
[+] [-] chiefalchemist|3 years ago|reply
Not saying that's right or wrong. Only that it's not strictly a pedestrian thing.
Since in EVs it's more or less simulated, it would make since to have more than one setting and one of those to be off.
p.s. The Dodge Charger has been ine of Dodge's most successful model. Gazillions of recognition has been invested in that model. They're not going to abandon that. In fact, the name makes more sense as an EV.
[+] [-] CalChris|3 years ago|reply
BTW, this clutch idea is really really dumb.
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] cnasc|3 years ago|reply
Doesn’t it make an obnoxiously amplified EV high pitched whir? That was the impression I got from the unveiling
[+] [-] datavirtue|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Fiahil|3 years ago|reply
I'm so glad this monstrosity is not cleared for European roads.
[+] [-] sokoloff|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nabilhat|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Hexcles|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] robryk|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ehnto|3 years ago|reply
All that said, I do appreciate the tendency for Japanese car companies to take care with the act of doing in their cars. I know Porsche gets the trophy for wholistic driving experiences, but Japan is doing a great job of bringing some of that back from the 90s bubble era cars.
[+] [-] gpt5|3 years ago|reply
There is just a lot of people that are used the a certain solution and are resistant to change.
[+] [-] manholio|3 years ago|reply
So I can see it making sense for vehicles that have have two modes of operation, for example a tractor or all-terain vehicle that also need to work on public roads at relatively high speeds. A manual gear box is ideal in such a setting, because you seldom need to use it and it's very simple, cost effective and reliable. In any case, only useful for an extreme niche of applications.
[+] [-] Someone1234|3 years ago|reply
If this makes people feel better during the transitional phase, I guess that counts for something, but this is a manual car simulation only.
[+] [-] Salgat|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rossmohax|3 years ago|reply
Film color,lenses defects, lots of "analog" audio effects and now cars.
[+] [-] bl_valance|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] GnarfGnarf|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gambiting|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nottorp|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rthomas6|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] asdfk-12|3 years ago|reply
It is also a joy to be able to service and replace the clutch when required. Here's to hoping Toyota doesn't break with their history of having vehicles that are easy to work on with cheap plentiful parts available from the dealer even 30 years after it rolls off the production line.
Trying to replace a battery pack on my Nissan Leaf has been a nightmare. Rather than supporting owners, they seem to prefer you treat the vehicle as disposable, given availability, cost, and needed tools to service the EV.
[+] [-] guenthert|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] psychomugs|3 years ago|reply
I'm glad someone is trying to save the manual transmission baby from the ICE bathwater.
[+] [-] dragontamer|3 years ago|reply
The torque from 1000lbs of Li-ion cannot be denied, but are there other options here? Less torque, fewer batteries, less range but still the acceptable acceleration and cruising speeds?
The high end Porches Tycan proved that two gears is a good design, even at the highest end of performance, for example. Lower performance vehicles probably have more opportunity to use gears?
[+] [-] dieselgate|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] albertopv|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway787544|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fred256|3 years ago|reply