I think there should be a generic rule for everything that the advertised price is something that you can actually pay and get the product. No $50 concert tickets with $75 of fees, advertising that for less than $125 should be illegal.
Of course I'm sure people will get creative with "optional" upsells, the $50 ticket is in the building but highly obstructed, but I think this is at least a huge step forward.
These are the kind of regulations that the government can introduce that actually help, not hurt markets.
When you take on a mortgage today, every mortgage has a standard coversheet that is identical between all lenders and lays out all the costs, interest rates and monthly payment in the exact same way.
That's a positive - increased transparency for consumers with minimal burden on businesses.
Shouldn't the same reasoning apply to search results? It should be illegal to claim "500000 results" but require additional spending of time, attention, data, and AI training work for each additional 200.
Charging customers for nitrogen filled tires that contain no more nitrogen than air (hey 78% is a lot!) reminds me of an idea I had to market regular salt as "ancient sea salt". I cracked myself up with this idea and thinking about the suckers in Whole Foods switching to it from their pink Himalayan or whatever regular sea salt.
Then I searched and discovered that of course some scumbag was actually doing it. Hehe
There is a legitimate use case for dry nitrogen in tires, it just doesn't apply to the average person's situation.
When the interior of the tire can become very hot, such as due to compressive loading in heavy construction equipment, there is a risk of accelerated oxidation and weakening of the tire material. In more extreme cases, the oxygen can react with atomized tire bits inside the tire causing an explosion via the same mechanism by which a Diesel engine works. It is exceedingly unlikely that the tires on a normal road car will ever become hot enough for this to matter.
Some bottled water brand had a tagline "no other water hydrates better"
in case anyone does want to use nitrogen in their tires, I think at least US Costcos with tire centers have free self-service nitrogen inflators for members.
I once saw a big display in my local grocery for "organic salt" a few years ago. Which struck me as just fundamentally wrong. We are talking about non-organic material. Of course they meant "organic certified" which just meant they didn't includes additives. But still ... it seems so misleading.
I think the point of “nitrogen” is more that it’s dry and impurity free, vs shop air that can have a lot of moisture and other junk in it. Ever drain an air compressor tank off the water that accumulated inside? They get filthy with rusty water.
> Charging customers for nitrogen filled tires that contain no more nitrogen than air (hey 78% is a lot!)
Are dealerships claiming to use nitrogen and just pumping in regular air, or are you talking about the unnecessary upselling of it? It's common in racing to use nitrogen, but yea, totally unnecessary for a Camry or whatever. One of my cars displays a warning telling me to visit the dealer when the tire pressure is low because the manufacturer recommends using nitrogen. I laughed the first time I saw the message on my gauge cluster before I knew the reason...still a ridiculous thought going to the dealer to top off my tire pressure even for nitrogen.
We've been selling nutritional supplements online for over a decade and I remember reading once about how some dirt on food really helps the microbiome. I considered selling dirt pills for a while. I think we'd have some success.
Excellent news; the nonsense that car dealers have been able to get away with since the start of the pandemic is simply ridiculous.
Perhaps most frustrating is the complete uselessness of posted prices, as many dealerships note in very fine print that their advertised prices are only valid for purchases financed through the dealership (no doubt at ridiculous APRs.) "Doc fees" are also something I would love to see eliminated—sometimes upwards of $500 for the dealer to submit some online forms to the DMV...
I was looking at purchasing a newer, used Land Rover a few months back from a Land Rover dealership (one that had a sterling reputation prior to a buy out). The sheet of non-negotiable fees was rolled out, which raised the price nearly $5,000. The $1895 for "Executive Concierge Fee" blew my mind, consisting of your basic $150 detail and a slew of additional items that one could buy and apply from any Pep Boys for under $100. Funny enough, when I got up to walk away I was asked if I would buy the vehicle that day if some of those $5,000 of "non-negotiable" fees were removed.
I contacted the sales manager to tell him why I'd never be back. They couldn't care less. It must mean that enough people fall for these scam fees or don't pay attention to the line items that they can afford to not care.
It looks like that rule would address this, and I'm for it.
Some carmakers are dealing with this directly. Subaru, for example, requires dealers to sell cars at MSRP...and does not allow dealers to mandate "mandatory" add-ons like extended warranties or "paint protection packages." Dealers which violate these rules get their dealer allotments reduced for desirable models/trims. (In the LA area, a dealer that was adding a mandatory $3000 protection package to certain 2022 Outback trims saw its dealer allotments quartered for those trims for the 2023 model year.)
None of these proposed bans or guidelines seem specific to cars, so why are they being narrowly targetted at them? Bans on bait-and-switch, fraudulent fees, junk fees, and requiring upfront disclosure of costs and conditions should apply to anything that you buy.
For the last couple of new cars that I bought, I emailed the "internet sales manager" at three local dealers and asked for a quote. I bought the car from the dealer with the lowest quote. I paid the quoted amount. This has been the suggested way to buy cars for like 20 years. I've not bought a new car in a while. Would this approach somehow break down now?
Internet sales is a low-touch, low-margin business. It made sense because the internet sales manager could move higher volume and still make the dealership money. Now that supply is constrained and the dealership has people beating down the doors to buy every can they can get their hands on, they don’t have much reason to play ball. It’s a waste of inventory.
I bought a car in-person in 2020, and tried a "get a quote emailed" search earlier this year. 100% prefer the in-person experience.
Response to my online quote request came back with "we don't have any of that model/year in stock" and then thus far, 15-20 marketing follow-up emails trying to sell me other cars, following up on my experience, etc, in addition of course to the modern marketing "guilt trip" emails ("Hi chucksmash, I sent you an email the other day with a few other models you might be interested in but never heard back, hope everything is okay, please let me know" 3x times). When all I did was click an "email me a quote" button because the web page didn't show a price.
Adding insult to injury, the page for unsubscribing cannot process a "+" in an email address.
At least when I walk into a showroom I can also walk out. Giving anybody your email address in 2022 is basically subscribing to CatFacts.
I tried to do the same a year ago. None of the dealers responded with a quote. All of them required me to come in before they would even consider discussing a price.
Dealers have gotten savvy to internet pricing so there isn't as much haggling on price as there used to be. You occassionally find a good deal online only to find out it was a ruse to get you to come in.
I think it depends on the state you're in and the inventory of the car you're buying. Some states have already implemented strong consumer protections that would have encouraged this style of transaction and eliminate many of the mechanisms where it could go wrong.
Further, in the last two years there have been a strong demand and low supply for vehicles. Many dealerships were selling out of cars months before they were even delivered - meaning they're bought sight unseen. Finally they get marked-up 10% or more. So even the cheapest bid is still well over the sales price established by the manufacturer.
Source: Bought a car in 2021, did a lot of research.
I did this in 2017 and it worked great, but the pandemic broke this for many dealerships. With both new and used inventory being so tight they can often sell the car the day it rolls off the truck for MSRP or even more with zero effort. The US is still at least 1-2 million vehicles per year behind replacement and population growth, let alone the backlog from the past two years. The knock-on effect has also dramatically shrunk the used market which causes a feedback loop with the new car market.
Parts shortages are just now clearing up so even in a recession situation it may take a year or two to clear up the backlog and get back to stable inventory levels. As that happens dealerships will go back to being flexible and working to make their sales.
FWIW: our current vehicle is a Tesla. I put an order in on the website, got a simple quote with about 5 optional extras I could click on or not. Waited 3-4 months and the vehicle arrived as described for the quoted price. In other words a completely normal buying experience with no stress or question marks. The one time I needed service I scheduled it in the app with pictures, they quoted me, then a tech showed up and did the work at my house for the price quoted.
I will NEVER EVER go back to the dealership "experience".
I've done the same in the past certainly. With the relative paucity of new cars available on the market due to supply chain issues, getting an actual out the door quote with real numbers without being in the dealership has been a lot harder for the past year. It's easing up a little bit as demand softens and more supply becomes available.
That approach would break down now if none of the local dealers has the car you want in stock and has already pre-sold all of the inventory they ordered. It really depends on where you're located and which model you want to buy. Good luck getting something like a Bronco.
It's unclear to me as to whether "Require full upfront disclosure of costs and conditions" also applies to subscription services, which is something that I'd really like transparency in.
Today, car ownership is a horrible value proposition. The car lobby has been all too successful in making America car-centric, which is a shame, because cars are great, but they aren't the only form of transportation out there.
I've been car-free for at least five years. To be fair, I live in a city that is friendly towards alternate transportation. I bike or use my own electric scooter. I plan ahead and book a rental when I know I'll need a car. So far it's been cheaper than owning, and has saved me thousands of dollars.
It's these sorts of shenanigans that I'm glad I don't have to deal with. Paying outrageous amounts for insurance is another. Not to mention parking headaches, the constant threat of high-speed, potentially fatal, accidents, or expensive maintenance.
>Today, car ownership is a horrible value proposition
Owning a car was literally the only asset I had that appreciated from 2020-2022. Everything else got inflated to hell or burst in the stock crash. My new vehicle was worth more with 20k on the dash than before I drove it off the lot.
hoo boy if you car owners think youre getting screwed in the recession, its been like this for motorcycles for about 30 years. "oh we just sold it" "oh that ones not on our lot" "the price is only for financing."
I once had a dealer advertise a two year old but new Yamaha, on paper, for six grand less than the wheelbarrow of fees that showed up after I asked for a quote in person. The "documentation" meeting was nearly an hour of upsells for special wax, special accessories, "racing nitrogen" in the tires on a touring bike, a 3000 mile care package, you name it. and each "document" was literally trying to get me to sign an agreement to purchase until the very end where I signed the receipt and state title forms.
Damn. This is exactly what happened to me when I bought my current car a few years ago. I found it used on the dealer website, it had everything I wanted and had <20k miles. I setup an appointment to see it on a friday, called thursday night just to make sure, "oh we just sold it, but we have a new one you can look at." I never even considered that they could just be lying.
Oh well, lesson learned I guess. It's paid off now, but I am looking at upgrading, and I'm gonna assume everything anyone at the dealership says is a lie until I see paperwork.
One thing that still confuses me is that brokers/agents are very common, or practically a requirement, in other areas but not at all in vehicle shopping. I would definitely pay a handsome fee to a broker to just absorb all the shopping/haggling pain, to cut through all the BS, on my behalf.
I have tried this once with one of the very few brokers I could find, and it was definitely better but it was obvious there were several areas of the experience that could be massively improved. I chalked it up at the time to a lack of competition between brokers, since there really aren’t many.
If we could redirect our populism away from aggressive handouts and towards consumer protections, that could be a party I'd consider supporting. This is a great move.
When I first came to America, I realized the biggest myth is that people believe it is a capitalist nation with free markets.
It is not. Not by a long shot.
From buying a car to getting medical treatment, America has a very UNIQUE template of the way people think, talk, behave and deal with each industry that is radically different from the rest of the world.
“Healthcare”?: They actually mean “Insurance”. The term has nothing to do with medicine, treatment, personal care or well being, but simply refers to this massive series of legislation over the decades that has enshrined government protection against competition in free markets leading to the extreme inefficiencies driving up prices.
“Dealerships”?: They mean Govt protected localized monopolies with the mandate to abuse said market power against any known free market ideal.
Energy Markets: Same story. Try building a transmission line, nuclear plant or any energy infrastructure in America and you’ll be lucky if you only go bankrupt and lose everything financially. Entities with the innovative courage to attempt such projects have terrible outcomes.
“Housing”: This continues to amaze me with how selective, arbitrary, corrupt and inefficient permits, zoning and all the other functions run by local governments actually are. Take a region as prominent as the SF Bay Area and regardless of your position, everyone likely has a strong opinion on inefficiencies in the market and how they don’t really need to persist in a free market.
In short, the biggest opportunity right now is a technological revolution in government and a challenge to the traditional form of local government that has proven so ineffective in a highly networked society.
This will never happen though because of the inherent self interest of the present structure in keeping things the way they are.
[+] [-] kevincox|3 years ago|reply
Of course I'm sure people will get creative with "optional" upsells, the $50 ticket is in the building but highly obstructed, but I think this is at least a huge step forward.
[+] [-] silvestrov|3 years ago|reply
The product you sell must be fully usable at the advertised price.
[+] [-] ericd|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shepherdjerred|3 years ago|reply
https://youtu.be/XbC0-tuYE2o?t=114
[+] [-] refurb|3 years ago|reply
When you take on a mortgage today, every mortgage has a standard coversheet that is identical between all lenders and lays out all the costs, interest rates and monthly payment in the exact same way.
That's a positive - increased transparency for consumers with minimal burden on businesses.
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] grecy|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 3np|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gmarx|3 years ago|reply
Then I searched and discovered that of course some scumbag was actually doing it. Hehe
[+] [-] wincy|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jandrewrogers|3 years ago|reply
When the interior of the tire can become very hot, such as due to compressive loading in heavy construction equipment, there is a risk of accelerated oxidation and weakening of the tire material. In more extreme cases, the oxygen can react with atomized tire bits inside the tire causing an explosion via the same mechanism by which a Diesel engine works. It is exceedingly unlikely that the tires on a normal road car will ever become hot enough for this to matter.
[+] [-] mister_tee|3 years ago|reply
in case anyone does want to use nitrogen in their tires, I think at least US Costcos with tire centers have free self-service nitrogen inflators for members.
[+] [-] jacobr1|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Gracana|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tmh88j|3 years ago|reply
Are dealerships claiming to use nitrogen and just pumping in regular air, or are you talking about the unnecessary upselling of it? It's common in racing to use nitrogen, but yea, totally unnecessary for a Camry or whatever. One of my cars displays a warning telling me to visit the dealer when the tire pressure is low because the manufacturer recommends using nitrogen. I laughed the first time I saw the message on my gauge cluster before I knew the reason...still a ridiculous thought going to the dealer to top off my tire pressure even for nitrogen.
[+] [-] chasebank|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] colpabar|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ryeights|3 years ago|reply
Perhaps most frustrating is the complete uselessness of posted prices, as many dealerships note in very fine print that their advertised prices are only valid for purchases financed through the dealership (no doubt at ridiculous APRs.) "Doc fees" are also something I would love to see eliminated—sometimes upwards of $500 for the dealer to submit some online forms to the DMV...
[+] [-] andrew_|3 years ago|reply
I contacted the sales manager to tell him why I'd never be back. They couldn't care less. It must mean that enough people fall for these scam fees or don't pay attention to the line items that they can afford to not care.
It looks like that rule would address this, and I'm for it.
[+] [-] gamblor956|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] joosters|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] intrasight|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fshbbdssbbgdd|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chucksmash|3 years ago|reply
Response to my online quote request came back with "we don't have any of that model/year in stock" and then thus far, 15-20 marketing follow-up emails trying to sell me other cars, following up on my experience, etc, in addition of course to the modern marketing "guilt trip" emails ("Hi chucksmash, I sent you an email the other day with a few other models you might be interested in but never heard back, hope everything is okay, please let me know" 3x times). When all I did was click an "email me a quote" button because the web page didn't show a price.
Adding insult to injury, the page for unsubscribing cannot process a "+" in an email address.
At least when I walk into a showroom I can also walk out. Giving anybody your email address in 2022 is basically subscribing to CatFacts.
[+] [-] yardie|3 years ago|reply
Dealers have gotten savvy to internet pricing so there isn't as much haggling on price as there used to be. You occassionally find a good deal online only to find out it was a ruse to get you to come in.
[+] [-] tmpz22|3 years ago|reply
Further, in the last two years there have been a strong demand and low supply for vehicles. Many dealerships were selling out of cars months before they were even delivered - meaning they're bought sight unseen. Finally they get marked-up 10% or more. So even the cheapest bid is still well over the sales price established by the manufacturer.
Source: Bought a car in 2021, did a lot of research.
[+] [-] bombcar|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xenadu02|3 years ago|reply
Parts shortages are just now clearing up so even in a recession situation it may take a year or two to clear up the backlog and get back to stable inventory levels. As that happens dealerships will go back to being flexible and working to make their sales.
FWIW: our current vehicle is a Tesla. I put an order in on the website, got a simple quote with about 5 optional extras I could click on or not. Waited 3-4 months and the vehicle arrived as described for the quoted price. In other words a completely normal buying experience with no stress or question marks. The one time I needed service I scheduled it in the app with pictures, they quoted me, then a tech showed up and did the work at my house for the price quoted.
I will NEVER EVER go back to the dealership "experience".
[+] [-] mcguirep|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nradov|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sagarun|3 years ago|reply
Says these rules will stifle innovation and some car makers are doing direct sales so rule is not really needed.
[+] [-] nerdponx|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] toomuchtodo|3 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_S._Wilson
[+] [-] throw10920|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 1970-01-01|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alphanumeric0|3 years ago|reply
I've been car-free for at least five years. To be fair, I live in a city that is friendly towards alternate transportation. I bike or use my own electric scooter. I plan ahead and book a rental when I know I'll need a car. So far it's been cheaper than owning, and has saved me thousands of dollars.
It's these sorts of shenanigans that I'm glad I don't have to deal with. Paying outrageous amounts for insurance is another. Not to mention parking headaches, the constant threat of high-speed, potentially fatal, accidents, or expensive maintenance.
[+] [-] HeyLaughingBoy|3 years ago|reply
Good for you. Most of us don't; that's why we buy cars.
[+] [-] eweise|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] notch656a|3 years ago|reply
Owning a car was literally the only asset I had that appreciated from 2020-2022. Everything else got inflated to hell or burst in the stock crash. My new vehicle was worth more with 20k on the dash than before I drove it off the lot.
[+] [-] nimbius|3 years ago|reply
I once had a dealer advertise a two year old but new Yamaha, on paper, for six grand less than the wheelbarrow of fees that showed up after I asked for a quote in person. The "documentation" meeting was nearly an hour of upsells for special wax, special accessories, "racing nitrogen" in the tires on a touring bike, a 3000 mile care package, you name it. and each "document" was literally trying to get me to sign an agreement to purchase until the very end where I signed the receipt and state title forms.
[+] [-] colpabar|3 years ago|reply
Damn. This is exactly what happened to me when I bought my current car a few years ago. I found it used on the dealer website, it had everything I wanted and had <20k miles. I setup an appointment to see it on a friday, called thursday night just to make sure, "oh we just sold it, but we have a new one you can look at." I never even considered that they could just be lying.
Oh well, lesson learned I guess. It's paid off now, but I am looking at upgrading, and I'm gonna assume everything anyone at the dealership says is a lie until I see paperwork.
[+] [-] 1970-01-01|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] inspector-g|3 years ago|reply
I have tried this once with one of the very few brokers I could find, and it was definitely better but it was obvious there were several areas of the experience that could be massively improved. I chalked it up at the time to a lack of competition between brokers, since there really aren’t many.
[+] [-] anm89|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] arwhatever|3 years ago|reply
But a quick search for “FTC” suggests this might be an agency I’m interested in supporting.
But how does one go about doing so? How does one go about providing some sort of support to a one-or-more level removed regulatory agency?
[+] [-] DisjointedHunt|3 years ago|reply
It is not. Not by a long shot.
From buying a car to getting medical treatment, America has a very UNIQUE template of the way people think, talk, behave and deal with each industry that is radically different from the rest of the world.
“Healthcare”?: They actually mean “Insurance”. The term has nothing to do with medicine, treatment, personal care or well being, but simply refers to this massive series of legislation over the decades that has enshrined government protection against competition in free markets leading to the extreme inefficiencies driving up prices.
“Dealerships”?: They mean Govt protected localized monopolies with the mandate to abuse said market power against any known free market ideal.
Energy Markets: Same story. Try building a transmission line, nuclear plant or any energy infrastructure in America and you’ll be lucky if you only go bankrupt and lose everything financially. Entities with the innovative courage to attempt such projects have terrible outcomes.
“Housing”: This continues to amaze me with how selective, arbitrary, corrupt and inefficient permits, zoning and all the other functions run by local governments actually are. Take a region as prominent as the SF Bay Area and regardless of your position, everyone likely has a strong opinion on inefficiencies in the market and how they don’t really need to persist in a free market.
In short, the biggest opportunity right now is a technological revolution in government and a challenge to the traditional form of local government that has proven so ineffective in a highly networked society.
This will never happen though because of the inherent self interest of the present structure in keeping things the way they are.
[+] [-] encryptluks2|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spaghettiToy|3 years ago|reply
No idea what to do. Wait? Used are the same price as new.
[+] [-] andrew_|3 years ago|reply
[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/gen-z-millennials-...
[+] [-] mistrial9|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]