[mryan]

I am reminded of something I first read on Schneier's blog [0]:

Back in the 1980s, Yosemite National Park was having a serious problem with bears: They would wander into campgrounds and break into the garbage bins. This put both bears and people at risk. So the Park Service started installing armored garbage cans that were tricky to open—you had to swing a latch, align two bits of handle, that sort of thing. But it turns out it’s actually quite tricky to get the design of these cans just right. Make it too complex and people can’t get them open to put away their garbage in the first place. Said one park ranger, “There is considerable overlap between the intelligence of the smartest bears and the dumbest tourists.”

0: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/08/security_is_a...

[Cerium]

That ranger's quote reminded me about a time I learned about the overlap in abilities between cats and raccoons.

When I was a child my family had a cat that preferred to spend most of the time outside. When we went on vacation, we would leave it inside and come home to an annoyed cat. We couldn't leave it outside, since the raccoons would steal all the food. My dad had an idea that since we had a house on a hill with a wrap around balcony we could find a way to enable the cat to reach the balcony but not the raccoons.

First we tried putting a long narrow board between the ground and the balcony on the theory that cats have better balance than raccoons. False, raccoons are fine at climbing across a narrow bridge.

Then we decided that cats are smaller than raccoons, so we would make a gate with a cutout matching the exact dimensions of our cat's head and body. In some ways this worked, the adult raccoons could not access the food. Unfortunately raccoons are not stupid, they sent a child raccoon to fetch the food to the door and then scooped it through the small opening.

The cat remained indoors during our trip.

[narrator]

Having dealt with an owner away on vacation indoor/outdoor cat and racoon situation, I found the optimal way to handle it. It was a rental, so I couldn't install a microchip cat door.

1. Get feeders that run on a timer and release a fixed amount of food.

2. Duct tape the feeders very securely to a metal box. Put something very heavy in the box to keep the raccoons from flipping the box over.

3. Set the timers so they release enough food for the cat. Have them set to go off a few hours after sunrise. Raccoons hate going out during the day.

4. The cat eats all the food and when the raccoons come at night there is nothing for them.

5. Point a motion activated camera at the feeders so you can fix and make improvements to the duct taping to respond to those clever raccoons and to make sure the cat has enough to eat.

[Ma8ee]

Nowadays there are cat doors with micro chip readers to make sure that only your cat can get in.

[bee_rider]

“There is considerable overlap between the intelligence of the smartest bears and the dumbest tourists.” is of course a great quip. But in defense of us dumb human tourists, it should also be noted that bears have a much higher personal incentive to get into the garbage, and they sometimes can simplify parts of the puzzle by brute force.

[mrpopo]

"no personal incentive to throw away the trash" is not such a good defence to the dumb tourist's intelligence as you make it seem.

[ggm]

Also the bears are usually not holding a baby, and a bottle of rum, and a deckchair and their backpack in one hand, trying to drop the rubbish in with one hand. So you have to at least try to design this for one handed human opening, where the bear has two paws to bring to bear (so to speak)

[SilasX]

Yes, humans might spend an hour and give up, and complain about the time the spent getting the container to work, while a wild animal will spend every waking moment to bypass the container's defense mechanisms.

[phreeza]

Great point, even within humans there are studies that show motivation plays a great role in the measured IQ, eg https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1018601108

[Cthulhu_]

Yup; or paraphrasing, one man's trash is another bear's dinner.

[walrus01]

the bear proof garbage cans installed in Whistler, BC (and Vancouver's north shore mountains) seem to be pretty successful as a design.

thankfully, bears can't read written instructions yet

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chuytron/2484618352

[TylerE]

Having to stick your hand into a hidden handle on a public trash can…eww.

[cpcallen]

Wow, they're using one-latch bins now? As far as I can recall from back when I cycled through the Rockies in the summer of 2000, the bins in the national parks all had two such latches that needed to be operated simultaneously to open the lid.

Maybe that design proved too challenging for the tourists.

[mechanical_bear]

The same exist in US parks, including Yosemite.

[brudgers]

Not to deny the big point.

Bear proofing is pretty good these days. The standard anti-bear latch relies on the physiological difference between human hands and paws.

Bear country street furniture has the latch recessed beneath a metal guard where a hand will fit and a bear paw won't.

Indeed the problem is well solved enough that you can buy a bear safe cooler at Walmart.

[JoeAltmaier]

I encountered complex garbage can lids in a Texas state park. The ranger said it was to keep out raccoons. Did it work? Sort of, he said.

I suggested if they put cable-lock on them, the raccoons would be out all night trying combinations.

[WalterBright]

What humans have is leverage, due to having language. This is a giant intelligence multiplier. The next multiplier was writing. The next printing. The next is computer networks.

Communication gives us the ability to coordinate with and teach others, which is an incredible advantage. We can build on what other humans learn, rather than having to rediscover it.

I sometimes wonder why this ability is so limited in other intelligent animals.

For the Park Service, they can print instructions and put them on the garbage can, or a ranger can explain it to the person.

[renewiltord]

They just have a non-locking carabiner clip on the bin on a metal cable. It's actually really easy to use. So whatever was true back in the 1980s or the early '00s is no longer a problem.

[nottorp]

Well, the first thing I thought of when I read the title was "better a cockatoo than a bear in your back yard".

[rickdangerous1]

I've often wondered if it is convenience rather than IQ that is the limiting factor for this. If I approach a bin with two hands full of garbage, how much time am I going to spend using half a hand to open an elaborate lock mechanism? Not much.

[mechanical_bear]

If you won’t spend the requisite time to properly dispose of your refuse, even if mildly inconvenient, then you don’t belong in our parks.

[_ytxa]

Why can’t the parks use electronic means? I can think of a few solutions using connected bins.

1. Have a QR code printed on the bin that simply leads to a website that temporarily toggles the bin to an open state when a button is clicked.

2. Humans can read, bears cannot. Print out simple instructions with a key code, like they have at Starbucks coffee shops for bathroom access.

[smcl]

Falsehoods programmers believe about visitors to national parks:

1. everyone has a phone that has a camera

2. everyone has a phone that has internet access

3. everyone's internet access works at all times

4. everyone's phone has charge at all times

... etc

Sorry that was a bit mean but I couldn't help it :) If you're not familiar with the format, there's a number of "falsehoods programmers believe about X" articles, for example:

- https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-...

- https://www.mjt.me.uk/posts/falsehoods-programmers-believe-a...

For what it's worth I don't think it's a huge ask to request visitors to carry their rubbish away with them when they visit somewhere like this. If you managed to bring it out there you can surely take it back.

[Animats]

Now that's over-complication.

The practical solution to this is based on humans having multiple long fingers, which bears do not have.[1]

[1] https://bearsaver.com/collections/bear-resistant-food-storag...

[bee_rider]

Depends on the park, I guess. Any electronic system will definitely require electricity, at least! Involving a QR code and a website seems to add a lot of complexity (what if the camper's phone is out of juice, what if they just have a flip phone, what if they just didn't bring their phone with them to the garbage? Plus we'll need a network connection).

An electronic keypad might work, still need electricity but it is a lot simpler. IMO you'd want something that doesn't require even simple written instructions -- I mean rarely, but still occasionally you might get a visitor with limited English literacy (people from other countries, etc). But a keypad with a number over printed above it should be kind of obvious... or a combination lock with the same. Although you'll always get somebody who doesn't make the link.

[danbruc]

A website to open a garbage bin? Seriously?

[xani_]

Someone arguing for trashcan needing internet connection and power in middle of forest...

... you know that, fuck this, go ahead and pitch it to some silicon valley VC, I'm sure someone will take a bait

[ballenf]

Because a prankster will replace the QR code with one that pops open a different can just behind you. Hopefully it's on a timer and closes just before you can get there for maximum fun.

[bagels]

That seems like a good way to have people leave trash next to the trash can.

[Cthulhu_]

We have underground trash bins that need a keycard to unlock and open and are designed in such a way that you can't reach in when it's opened; something like that, maybe with a camera with basic facial / human detection. But nothing internet connected or requiring people's electronics, they go there to escape from that.

[dspillett]

> Why can’t the parks use electronic means?

Right now? Cost to implement and maintain. Who is going to fund it?

Back in the 80s when this story & quote comes from? Money may have been relatively flush then, but the tech was not available (at least not in a form that could be realistically rolled out park-wide) no matter the funds offered.

[icelancer]

Because that was written in 2006, referencing something from much earlier than that?

[EGreg]

How do you know that a desperate mama bear can't learn to read?

https://theconversation.com/can-crows-read-3740 hehehehehe

[ClumsyPilot]

> Have a QR code printed on the bin that simply leads to a website

This comment is the perfect specimen of why our industry is a fucking joke. It should be illegal for us to call ourselves engineers.

This is how a vending machine that takes coins gets replaced by a vending machine that requires internet, a smartphone, two apps and three passwords to buy a water bottle.

This is how you get critical infrastructure like elevators where display showing floor number lags (!), it needs wifi and the elevator goes down for software updates.