I think the simplest answer to all of this is a cage match.
Specifically, a Faraday Cage.
Magnus believes that Niemann is cheating via communication with a computer. Fine, let's completely remove the ability to communicate with a computer. Both men are searched on the way in. Heck, for fun lets have them play in tight sporting outfits so it's very clear what they are carrying and doing.
If Magnus destroys Niemann, he'll be able to pretty handily claim that Niemann can't win without communication to computers. If Niemann is competitive, or wins, it will be hard for Carlsen to make any more such claims.
And also, the sport will have a spectacle like we've never seen before. Tell me you wouldn't pay to watch that match!
You joke, but the only tournaments Hans has performed well in (2700+) are coincidentally the ones where the boards are sharing the moves live online. He performs at a 2400 level when the games aren't available online.
I think the answer is not that difficult really. All Hans Niemann's moves, all his games, are public information.
People can analyze them and form their own opinions about whether he has been cheating or not. The question "how" need not even be considered.
Carlsen has of course already looked at the games, with the experience of having preiviously looked at millions of games between humans, and millions of analyses from computer engines. And he must have realised that Niemann has achieved something unique, he has conducted many absolute masterpieces, sometimes one after the other in the same tournament, while being rated 2400-2500. Performances so perfect, that no other human has ever accomplished.
> If Magnus destroys Niemann, he'll be able to pretty handily claim that Niemann can't win without communication to computers. If Niemann is competitive, or wins, it will be hard for Carlsen to make any more such claims.
I don't think that's very conclusive.
The thing is, there's still an element of luck[1] in chess. A lower-rated player can beat a higher-rated player, and a higher-rated player can dominate an even match.
I attended the EM wave propagation lectures years ago at my Uni, so my knowledge is rusty, and the following might not be something that is true in practice.
The faraday cage tries to equalize electrical field potential over space. It does so by allowing electrons to move more or less freely, typically inside a metal mesh.
But
a). metals (unless we use superconductors) have electrical resistance
b). electrons themselves have rest masses (i.e. don't accelerate infinitely quickly in response to force).
So, the movement of electrons is not instantaneous, therefore the electrical field cannot be equalized ideally. in effect we achieve attenuation of the signal, and not its complete blockage.
Secondly, the mesh must have some relation to the signal frequency (the wave-length), probably at 1:1 or 1:2 ratio. At some frequencies (terahertz, infra-red, visible, xray) you'll need pretty much a solid box to attenuate those.
And there's obviously tech which you cannot block/attenuate, like neutrinos. Producing and receiving such signals is however non-trivial and requires particle accelerators and large cavities filled with mineral oil and bulky detectors, so we can probably skip this :). Gravity waves belong to the same category.
You can also probably try to send and receive particles, like electrons or alpha particles if you use non-solid meshes.
This is a terrible mythbusters way to test a hypothesis. What’s the variance and how many samples are needed for say 95% confidence in disproving null hypothesis?
WCC is a dozen+ rounds. Even then if you were watching it in the 9th game, it may appear the one player is stronger than the eventual champion.
The funny thing is that at this level, if a player is told they are losing or winning in a very complex position, they are often capable of figuring out how they are losing or winning precisely. The bits of information a top player needs to cheat are so few that for the average viewer it is inconceivable.
Why not just let him play and run analyses on the moves? Surely they can, for example, input all the moves into known chess engines and see if there's a match with the alledged cheater's moves. Then the match will be annulled and the guy ousted.
Faraday cages don't block many types of communication, for example visible light, sound or low freq magnetic fields. And there are organic non metal receivers for that (eye, ear, bird magnetic navigation)
How much of all this could be just building-up the hype that'll end with a bigger payday for both?
You may gladly pay, and I'll bet they'll happily take the money you'll now pay.
There have been instances in chess where cheaters get caught and they receive light bans and many top players say the punishment is too weak. It's intuitive, if you've been caught cheating then you should be banned from competitive chess. I think that's more likely what Magnus thinks.
It should suffice that you can be proven not to be cheating right here and right now. Unlike doping, getting assistance helps you only exactly as long as you continue getting it.
I've been trying to follow chess events for the last couple years and I enjoyed it. Right now I have completely lost all the interest in chess because of this 16 and Pregnant level of drama.
I feel that Magnus has become so important in the world of chess that other top level chess players are too afraid to intervene in this "cheating" scandal. Even Hikaru who seemingly has equal(if not bigger) media share of the chess world chooses to make silly videos instead of actually having strong stance against this bullying.
It will be interesting to see what Magnus does with other players around that 2600-2650 level who have been made to occasionally take breaks from online tournaments, e.g. Maghsoodloo. Or if this stance is only reserved for those who win against him as black.
There are two possibilities. Either Hans Niemann cheated, or he didn't. If he cheated, we will never know, unless he confesses. If he didn't cheat, it would be humiliating for Carlsen.
In any case, chess tournaments need to increase their security to make even the mere appearance of cheating impossible.
I was under the impression it's really hard to have a communication device that's not discoverable on you.
In Vegas you could make a lot of easy money playing poker if you can communicate with the other players, people have done just this and got caught. which leads me to believe a tournament of this much importance could also prevent it.
I don't know much about chess so maybe I've got this all wrong, but I don't see how this can be anything but a dick move by Magnus. What information could he possibly have obtained in that amount of time that would informed him of whether Has was cheating? And if he didn't obtain that information in real time, why did he agree to the match in the first place? It makes no sense.
This is so interesting in many ways. One there may be no cheating in IRL games so there's a new up challenger for the crown. Two we're seeing a "prove you're not an AI" being asked of a human who doesn't seem to adequately explain their play in a way that seems convincing to other experts. Thirdly, it brings up the whole Deep Blue vs Kasparov rematch which may not have been adequately resolved depending on which circles you speak.
Will artists also have to prove that their artwork is not machine-assisted (how?) or else become devalued? Where is this all heading?
He has been suspended from chess.com online tournaments due to cheating in the past.
Furthermore, when analyzing the game in the post-game interview he claimed he had happened to look at this exact line on his computer earlier the same day, a line that Magnus has never played in his career. And when analyzing he suggested alternative moves that lost on the spot.
The issue is there isn't even a cheating accusation. Magnus conceded here and quit another tournament but hasn't actually said he thinks Hans is cheating.
Perhaps Magnus (center of the chess world) knows more than we do, and this is his form of silent protest to force the hands of the people that can actually do something about it (FIDE).
I say this, because there are some pretty insidious rumors at the highest levels of chess concerning coverups and numerous examples of suspicious things happening over the past two years (not just from Hans). I can see a scenario where Magnus is up against something larger than himself.
They scan bicycles for hidden motors any more, before and after important bicycle races. Maybe X-Rays are needed for chess, such as for airplane boarding?
[+] [-] neonate|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mabbo|3 years ago|reply
Specifically, a Faraday Cage.
Magnus believes that Niemann is cheating via communication with a computer. Fine, let's completely remove the ability to communicate with a computer. Both men are searched on the way in. Heck, for fun lets have them play in tight sporting outfits so it's very clear what they are carrying and doing.
If Magnus destroys Niemann, he'll be able to pretty handily claim that Niemann can't win without communication to computers. If Niemann is competitive, or wins, it will be hard for Carlsen to make any more such claims.
And also, the sport will have a spectacle like we've never seen before. Tell me you wouldn't pay to watch that match!
[+] [-] ninepoints|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] oldstrangers|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] radiator|3 years ago|reply
People can analyze them and form their own opinions about whether he has been cheating or not. The question "how" need not even be considered.
Carlsen has of course already looked at the games, with the experience of having preiviously looked at millions of games between humans, and millions of analyses from computer engines. And he must have realised that Niemann has achieved something unique, he has conducted many absolute masterpieces, sometimes one after the other in the same tournament, while being rated 2400-2500. Performances so perfect, that no other human has ever accomplished.
[+] [-] aqme28|3 years ago|reply
I don't think that's very conclusive.
The thing is, there's still an element of luck[1] in chess. A lower-rated player can beat a higher-rated player, and a higher-rated player can dominate an even match.
[1] luck, not chance.
[+] [-] awill|3 years ago|reply
Niemann might be cheating, but still capable of playing 2700+ without cheating. They can both be true.
[+] [-] serf|3 years ago|reply
>And also, the sport will have a spectacle like we've never seen before. Tell me you wouldn't pay to watch that match!
Magnus wearing one of those Speedo swimmer speed-suits would be worth the price of admission without the chess just for the sake of absurdity.
[+] [-] jagrsw|3 years ago|reply
The faraday cage tries to equalize electrical field potential over space. It does so by allowing electrons to move more or less freely, typically inside a metal mesh.
But
a). metals (unless we use superconductors) have electrical resistance
b). electrons themselves have rest masses (i.e. don't accelerate infinitely quickly in response to force).
So, the movement of electrons is not instantaneous, therefore the electrical field cannot be equalized ideally. in effect we achieve attenuation of the signal, and not its complete blockage.
Secondly, the mesh must have some relation to the signal frequency (the wave-length), probably at 1:1 or 1:2 ratio. At some frequencies (terahertz, infra-red, visible, xray) you'll need pretty much a solid box to attenuate those.
And there's obviously tech which you cannot block/attenuate, like neutrinos. Producing and receiving such signals is however non-trivial and requires particle accelerators and large cavities filled with mineral oil and bulky detectors, so we can probably skip this :). Gravity waves belong to the same category.
You can also probably try to send and receive particles, like electrons or alpha particles if you use non-solid meshes.
[+] [-] pxtail|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] systemvoltage|3 years ago|reply
WCC is a dozen+ rounds. Even then if you were watching it in the 9th game, it may appear the one player is stronger than the eventual champion.
[+] [-] PartiallyTyped|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] seydor|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Cthulhu_|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] asddubs|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] InCityDreams|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] QuantumGood|3 years ago|reply
(1) Niemann should not have been allowed into the tournament
(2) Due to sufficient cheating evidence, and that he
(3) Does not wish to make a statement to avoid any legal jeopardy.
His approach so far can be seen as better than skipping tournaments or trying to force tournaments to not include Hans if they want Magnus to attend.
Analysis of their last game together: https://lichess.org/broadcast/sinquefield-cup--grand-chess-t...
[+] [-] ejcx|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ncmncm|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] penetrarthur|3 years ago|reply
I feel that Magnus has become so important in the world of chess that other top level chess players are too afraid to intervene in this "cheating" scandal. Even Hikaru who seemingly has equal(if not bigger) media share of the chess world chooses to make silly videos instead of actually having strong stance against this bullying.
Innocent until proven guilty.
[+] [-] soared|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tantalor|3 years ago|reply
> I'm going to resign any game I'm forced to play with him
He resigned because the opponent, not the match.
[+] [-] cool_dude85|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lawrenceyan|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mzs|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] arolihas|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stephc_int13|3 years ago|reply
His silence is not playing strongly in his favor.
[+] [-] oldstrangers|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Victerius|3 years ago|reply
In any case, chess tournaments need to increase their security to make even the mere appearance of cheating impossible.
[+] [-] tomComb|3 years ago|reply
Did Magnus play badly?
[+] [-] mellosouls|3 years ago|reply
https://youtu.be/YktWQrnjPwU
[+] [-] jayski|3 years ago|reply
In Vegas you could make a lot of easy money playing poker if you can communicate with the other players, people have done just this and got caught. which leads me to believe a tournament of this much importance could also prevent it.
[+] [-] lisper|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mellosouls|3 years ago|reply
Alternative coverage on a bigger site as some commenters are having trouble with the original link:
https://www.vice.com/en/article/7k8w7x/magnus-carlsen-resign...
[+] [-] karmakaze|3 years ago|reply
Will artists also have to prove that their artwork is not machine-assisted (how?) or else become devalued? Where is this all heading?
[+] [-] hunglee2|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] silent_cal|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jobs_throwaway|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mongol|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JetSetIlly|3 years ago|reply
The current tournament is an online tournament.
[+] [-] BoardsOfCanada|3 years ago|reply
Furthermore, when analyzing the game in the post-game interview he claimed he had happened to look at this exact line on his computer earlier the same day, a line that Magnus has never played in his career. And when analyzing he suggested alternative moves that lost on the spot.
[+] [-] neaden|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sn0w_crash|3 years ago|reply
As a Magnus fan I have yet to see any convincing evidence (or any evidence at all) of Hans cheating.
Hikaru’s analysis was a waste of time, IMO.
This is starting to look like a massive nothingburger.
[+] [-] oldstrangers|3 years ago|reply
Perhaps Magnus (center of the chess world) knows more than we do, and this is his form of silent protest to force the hands of the people that can actually do something about it (FIDE).
I say this, because there are some pretty insidious rumors at the highest levels of chess concerning coverups and numerous examples of suspicious things happening over the past two years (not just from Hans). I can see a scenario where Magnus is up against something larger than himself.
[+] [-] roflyear|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] smm11|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pmontra|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mellosouls|3 years ago|reply
https://youtube.com/shorts/QkqZxzZ4jD4