IMO the data privacy angle is not super important. There isn't that much that TikTok can collect from you anyway. IMO much more important is that the videos that are shown to you while you mindlessly scroll for that next dopamine hit are controlled by the CCP.
> There isn't that much that TikTok can collect from you anyway.
- GPS Location
- Wifi connections
- Social graphs (phone contacts, as well as inference through locality)
- Dynamic Social interests (how long you watch a video, what videos you tend to watch the most, adapts over time)
- There's a keylogger in the in-app browser
- They are able to influence certain ideas (i.e. propaganda) because they control your feed and can target propaganda and a near personal level
This is a lot of important information that has a lot of power. But you come back and say
> IMO much more important is that the videos that are shown to you while you mindlessly scroll for that next dopamine hit are controlled by the CCP.
So I just want to make sure that we connect the bridge. The privacy angle and propaganda angle are one in the same to the privacy community. It is the information gathered that is used to dictate the dopamine hit/propaganda. We need to be clear about these being being part of the same system or else people mindlessly state "nothing to hide, nothing to fear." Data collection is about influence. After all, what are ads if not attempts to influence you? (ads don't just sell products either. Another common misconception)
While there is the concern about invasion of privacy the nuance of the conversation is that the invasion of privacy erodes our free will as it is used to influence us. Obviously there's a complicated part of what is good and bad influence but surely we can agree that influence from a foreign nation that doesn't have our best interest in minds is not a good influence.
> There isn't that much that TikTok can collect from you anyway. IMO much more important is that the videos that are shown to you while you mindlessly scroll for that next dopamine hit are controlled by the CCP.
The way they're so successful at the latter is by being really good at the former. If you've used it, they've (at minimum) built a psychographic profile used for content and ad targeting.
Not only what videos are shown, but also what videos /topics are suppressed, which is also a useful tool for swaying public opinion as Meta has demonstrated: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32607698
"IMO much more important is that the videos that are show to you while you mindlessly scroll for that next dopamine hist are controlled by the CCP."
To clarify, is the concern
(a) that the videos are chosen by a third party organisation not the user,
(b) that the third party in this case is TikTok under pressure from CCP, instead of, say, Google under pressure from US Government, or
(c) both.
IMO, the so-called user should be in control of choosing videos, not treated like a test subject^1 by third parties, i.e., "tech" companies, trying to profit from data collection and advertising services.
Consider that without the data collection, e.g., metadata, the "automatic video selection service" provided by the "tech" company would not work very effectively. It must be targeted. And for that, data collection is essential.
IMO, "data privacy", despite the name, is not simply a matter of whether a person desires to have "privacy", it is a matter of whether a person wants to voluntarily give data to a "tech" company at no cost to enable effective targeted manipulation for the benefit of the company's customers, i.e., commercial or political advertisers, and consequently the company.
I agree that we're focused on the wrong danger. The same way we tried to push the marijuana narrative toward physical harm when the real danger was in co-opting our goal system.
I'd go further than you and say it's not even important that it's controlled by the CCP. An unlimited supply of the most interesting 30-second videos in the world is dangerous regardless of who's determining "interesting."
Absolutely true; but, for example, YouTube search results also employ a variety of finely tuned parameters that uprank or downrank certain videos, with zero transparency or oversight. YouTube Trending and Twitter Trends are heavily editorialized, and nothing shows up before it is manually approved by an employee. You might have even seen Twitter "trends" that, when you click on them, only show you 5 tweets by a single verified Twitter account, and nothing else; no discussion is shown. Twitter Search results (the "Top" tab) show popular tweets mixed in with 60-likes tweets, to prevent you from accurately gauging "the mood" or the predominant opinion. These companies feel perfectly entitled to decide what you'll see.
Every social media is founded on an algorithm, and they are all black boxes. TikTok constitutes unique challenges (if they want to dumb people down, they can), but most of the criticism is true of every platform.
I'm totally with you on this. Who doesn't want to control global influence marketing? Prioritize certain content in certain locations, boost their economies...
Obviously, I'm speculating, which doesn't necessarily help anything nor is true, but... my gut is with you.
Data gathering does have its dangers. But giving a not so friendly power the ability to directly influence your citizens is the real danger. There is no way to minimize that other than to have control over the whole enterprise.
Right now the EU is feeling the shock of giving Russia control over its fuel needs. Something that many people thought could happen but at least in that situation Russia does not have the ability to directly influence the EU's citizens. If it could influence minds directly, Russia could be confident that it would win the conflict. Tik Tok is that influencing machine that can be used against the US. We need to do something before it becomes a problem.
I can't tell the last time I sat and watched a movie or a series. You work, go to the gym, hop out of the shower and start scrolling and when you look up, 2 hours have passed. It's insane.
> IMO much more important is that the videos that are shown to you while you mindlessly scroll for that next dopamine hit are controlled by the CCP.
Better to be controlled by a large corporation that, by explicit design, acts like a psychopath and will direct you to destroy the very fabric of your society if this increases “engagement” more often than not.
Exactly, Tiktok can algorithmically identify a few 100k persuadable voters in a few battleground states and feed them the political viewpoint they favor. Thus CCP can influence our elections. Its easy do this in stealth and there is no way to prove from outside that it happened!.
We already have laws that restrict majority foreign ownership of traditional media, why cant we extend it to new media?
People like to say this with basically no evidence. It's basically a conspiracy theory at this point. In fact, I've had TikTok videos, in the app itself, claiming the same thing.
Man, those CCP folks are just really, really good! They knew I'd be an inherent skeptic! Yes, or perhaps you are just anti-china conspiracy theorist.
I'm open to changing my mind on the subject, but I have not seen a single iota of evidence on the matter.
Google and Facebook would LOVE to have TikTok banned because TikTok is eating their lunch right now, attracting advertising money at a rate that is an existential threat to them both.
Having worked in the Chinese tech sector I have honestly no idea where this cartoonish idea comes from that the Chinese government magically runs every tech company in the country. I seriously question if anyone who says that has any personal experience with the country at all. This is some strange techno-orientalism where Asian governments apparently have superpowers nobody else possesses. Does anyone here think the American government is physically able to own or run every technology company or even one?
The Chinese tech sector, including TikTok (which is a distinct western entity anyway, the Chinese app is called Doujin) faced comparatively little oversight, and regulators usually aren't exactly competent. Chinese entrepreneurs navigate laws and regulations just like they do everywhere else, with the added difficulty that they tend to be even more confusing than anywhere else. There is no mastermind sitting in a dark room smoking a cigar controlling entire sectors of the economy, because only the tech companies actually know how to operate themselves, same as anywhere else.
The government in China considers its own tech sector to be a competing power center, not some extended arm of the party, which is why they brought the hammer down on significant parts of the industry recently, wiping out ungodly sums of money in the process. You don't do that to an asset. Chinese tech tends to attempt to skirt the rules (usually for its own benefit) whenever possible.
Ah yes, “magic” and “cigar-smoking masterminds“, those two classic implements of state control. What’s actually of concern is the legal and regulatory environment and the way it is deployed/abused:
Remember, if you can be arbitrarily thrown in jail for pissing off the state then you can be damn sure that you’re going to going to find out what the state does and does not want you to do.
Having worked in the Chinese tech sector I have honestly no idea where this cartoonish idea comes from that the Chinese government magically runs every tech company in the country. I seriously question if anyone who says that has any personal experience with the country at all.
Reading through that thread and then a bit more of his twitter, just seems like yet another wannabe Dan Price style philosopher, acting like the enlightened person residing at the center of every debate. None of his arguments are particularly concerning or unique considering how much every other company lobbies and evades governments.
The thing that bothers me the most about TikTok is how it's allowed to operate with little restriction in the US but US-based companies do not have nearly the same level of freedom to operate in China e.g. fb is banned in CPP).
I feel it's similar to how medical experiments, and production is done in China, which would be unlawful in the original country. I think everyone just exploits as much as they can.
> 80 million Americans now spend 20% of their free time scrolling through an algorithmic content experience owned by the Chinese Government.
As opposed to a billion people spending 20% of their free time scrolling through a Facebook feed (back when Facebook was a thing).
Honestly, the more these issues get raised, the more it's clear that there's really no difference between a government and a corporation except one spends money and the other makes money.
We have been slowly moving into a post-Democratic version of globalism for decades. Consumerism is not a bulwark against oppression, and we've mostly only had the illusion of choice or control in our political process, with oligarchs deciding everything rather than the "δῆμος". Totalitarian empires have been the dominant model of human civilization for the past couple thousand years; there's no reason to believe it wouldn't continue. China will be leading the new global status quo, which will combine heightened entertainment with heightened totalitarianism. Orwell was a prophet, a century early.
I don't really understand how this is any different from any other social media platform besides the entity your data is being sent back to. Is the Chinese government really any worse than Google, Meta, etc.? I think if you really feel passionately about this specific instance, then you should also feel the same passion about any other social media platform that collects your data and does with it what they please.
This is hilarious. Social media is a threat to national security. The Internet is a threat to national security. People have a desire to be seen and see others. So long as we have that desire, and the Internet makes it possible, there will always be a TikTok.
The only reason they’re really saying it’s a national security threat is because of how big it’s gotten. What about Facebook? I would say Facebook represents a far greater threat to national security than TikTok.
Hi, uh.... OP here (from twitter). Didn't realize someone posted this! And honestly I was expecting like 20 likes total.
Anyways, want to clarify a couple things:
- All of the information presented is accurate. And the questions are fair.
- I am not defending FB or other tech companies broadly. I'm pro data locality.
- China is an authoritarian mass surveillance state that forcibly squashes detractors and limits individual freedoms. The US has made many mistakes, but it still doesn't come comparably close to this.
- Please for the love of God don't compare me to Dan Price. Please? lmao.
I'd be interested to know what kind of reception this has had in the US, given the reputation of tiktok, regardless of however it actually is for privacy and security
People would take this whole situation more seriously if it weren't always discussed in such evasive terms as "US Data". What data, exactly?
The truth is that every cell phone is a tracking device, and the US government loves this. The only thing they're upset about is anybody other than themselves having all this tracking device data. So when a China-based company gets a hold of it, they're upset, but they can't really articulate why they're upset, because it would amount to an admission of how much they love their precious surveillance economy/state. Instead they just sort of stammer and sputter about "US Data".
I feel a certain Schadenfreude about this situation.
Tik Tok is a garbage dumpster filled with junk. It’s no more a threat than an empty can of tomato soup. It is hated because it can’t be bought and controlled by Facebook as it’s a China company.
A lot of the sentiment in this thread makes it clear that Social Media (Google/FB/TikTok) is a tool capable of exerting power, a weapon.
The great firewall of china prevents American "weapons" from running rampant on Chinese citizens. Meanwhile America has no digital border, so Chinese weapons are able to run rampant on us. If you ask just about anyone "Is it ok for China to store bombs in our cities, while they prevent us from putting bombs in theirs" the answer is obvious.
Despite this America has chosen a "one internet" strategy to prevent the balkanization of the internet and generally has an anti-protectionism strategy.
The far more interesting question is "despite the obvious national security risk posed by TikTok, why might it be preferable to not block it?"
If there is a market for domestic video-based social networks, then it should be low-hanging fruit for a US-based provider to offer a competitive product. If there isn't then the market has spoken, and consumers have voted with their attention.
There aren't any other interpretations that don't deprive the invisible hand of the market from delivering providence to consumers. These are rational actors making voluntary choices. Foreign policy should simply stay out as any intervention is necessarily a market distortion. If market actors are consuming it, it's good definitionally.
> [Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, Snapchat, Twitter] is a national security threat.
That's a lazy thing to say. It's obvious that TikTok is qualitatively different from the perspective of the US and its allies.
It's like this: a gun in my hand could be a threat to me because I could accidentally shoot myself in the foot; but that's very different threat than a gun in the hand of a mugger who's pointing it at my head.
Can't think of a bigger dissonance between most people and a typical HN commenter than this. Its a good intersection of infosec and geopolitical nerdom in general, but mostly it allows programmers to think that their expertise has bearing on something so seemingly serious and huge, when their work doesnt usually give them that opportunity. So I understand the fervor that way only because it just can't all be the typical superiority dynamic presented here a lot with layman's consumption habits, its just so extra with anything about software and China. I hope you guys get a fight worth your time one day.
Can anyone point to something that TikTok is doing that FB/Google/Twitter aren't already doing, that we should be concerned about?
All the anti-tiktok takes seem to be rooted in sinophobia and nationalist sour grapes. I don't like megacorps slurping my info up, but these conversations seem to have huge blinders around what has become standard practice for American web companies - especially when handling the data of foreign users.
What data does the CCP have? The people I follow? The kind of videos I like to watch. My favorites? Videos I "liked"? How exactly is this a national security threat?
I'm all for pushing back against the CCP but it's not clear what "data" they have
[+] [-] aftbit|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] godelski|3 years ago|reply
- GPS Location
- Wifi connections
- Social graphs (phone contacts, as well as inference through locality)
- Dynamic Social interests (how long you watch a video, what videos you tend to watch the most, adapts over time)
- There's a keylogger in the in-app browser
- They are able to influence certain ideas (i.e. propaganda) because they control your feed and can target propaganda and a near personal level
This is a lot of important information that has a lot of power. But you come back and say
> IMO much more important is that the videos that are shown to you while you mindlessly scroll for that next dopamine hit are controlled by the CCP.
So I just want to make sure that we connect the bridge. The privacy angle and propaganda angle are one in the same to the privacy community. It is the information gathered that is used to dictate the dopamine hit/propaganda. We need to be clear about these being being part of the same system or else people mindlessly state "nothing to hide, nothing to fear." Data collection is about influence. After all, what are ads if not attempts to influence you? (ads don't just sell products either. Another common misconception)
While there is the concern about invasion of privacy the nuance of the conversation is that the invasion of privacy erodes our free will as it is used to influence us. Obviously there's a complicated part of what is good and bad influence but surely we can agree that influence from a foreign nation that doesn't have our best interest in minds is not a good influence.
[+] [-] CharlesW|3 years ago|reply
The way they're so successful at the latter is by being really good at the former. If you've used it, they've (at minimum) built a psychographic profile used for content and ad targeting.
[+] [-] yogenpro|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 1vuio0pswjnm7|3 years ago|reply
To clarify, is the concern
(a) that the videos are chosen by a third party organisation not the user,
(b) that the third party in this case is TikTok under pressure from CCP, instead of, say, Google under pressure from US Government, or
(c) both.
IMO, the so-called user should be in control of choosing videos, not treated like a test subject^1 by third parties, i.e., "tech" companies, trying to profit from data collection and advertising services.
Consider that without the data collection, e.g., metadata, the "automatic video selection service" provided by the "tech" company would not work very effectively. It must be targeted. And for that, data collection is essential.
IMO, "data privacy", despite the name, is not simply a matter of whether a person desires to have "privacy", it is a matter of whether a person wants to voluntarily give data to a "tech" company at no cost to enable effective targeted manipulation for the benefit of the company's customers, i.e., commercial or political advertisers, and consequently the company.
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4woPg0-xyAA
[+] [-] Lucent|3 years ago|reply
I'd go further than you and say it's not even important that it's controlled by the CCP. An unlimited supply of the most interesting 30-second videos in the world is dangerous regardless of who's determining "interesting."
[+] [-] concinds|3 years ago|reply
Every social media is founded on an algorithm, and they are all black boxes. TikTok constitutes unique challenges (if they want to dumb people down, they can), but most of the criticism is true of every platform.
[+] [-] wsinks|3 years ago|reply
Obviously, I'm speculating, which doesn't necessarily help anything nor is true, but... my gut is with you.
[+] [-] WheelsAtLarge|3 years ago|reply
Right now the EU is feeling the shock of giving Russia control over its fuel needs. Something that many people thought could happen but at least in that situation Russia does not have the ability to directly influence the EU's citizens. If it could influence minds directly, Russia could be confident that it would win the conflict. Tik Tok is that influencing machine that can be used against the US. We need to do something before it becomes a problem.
[+] [-] iKlsR|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] madmax108|3 years ago|reply
* proceeds to spend whole day reading HN and doomscrolling Twitter instead * ;-)
[+] [-] MiguelX413|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tmaly|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] voisin|3 years ago|reply
Better to be controlled by a large corporation that, by explicit design, acts like a psychopath and will direct you to destroy the very fabric of your society if this increases “engagement” more often than not.
[+] [-] gfdsgfdsf|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gopi|3 years ago|reply
We already have laws that restrict majority foreign ownership of traditional media, why cant we extend it to new media?
[+] [-] voxl|3 years ago|reply
Man, those CCP folks are just really, really good! They knew I'd be an inherent skeptic! Yes, or perhaps you are just anti-china conspiracy theorist.
I'm open to changing my mind on the subject, but I have not seen a single iota of evidence on the matter.
[+] [-] mikece|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] CharlesW|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nova22033|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] commandlinefan|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] elzbardico|3 years ago|reply
This is just plain old protectionism.
[+] [-] Barrin92|3 years ago|reply
The Chinese tech sector, including TikTok (which is a distinct western entity anyway, the Chinese app is called Doujin) faced comparatively little oversight, and regulators usually aren't exactly competent. Chinese entrepreneurs navigate laws and regulations just like they do everywhere else, with the added difficulty that they tend to be even more confusing than anywhere else. There is no mastermind sitting in a dark room smoking a cigar controlling entire sectors of the economy, because only the tech companies actually know how to operate themselves, same as anywhere else.
The government in China considers its own tech sector to be a competing power center, not some extended arm of the party, which is why they brought the hammer down on significant parts of the industry recently, wiping out ungodly sums of money in the process. You don't do that to an asset. Chinese tech tends to attempt to skirt the rules (usually for its own benefit) whenever possible.
[+] [-] jahewson|3 years ago|reply
From 2020:
https://rankingdigitalrights.org/index2020/spotlights/china-...
And two years later:
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-62544950.amp
Remember, if you can be arbitrarily thrown in jail for pissing off the state then you can be damn sure that you’re going to going to find out what the state does and does not want you to do.
[+] [-] ztratar|3 years ago|reply
ByteDance CEO Zhang Yiming has stated on the record that he will ensure his products serve to promote the CCP’s propaganda agenda.
Companies that refuse, such as Alibaba, are stripped of their power and their leader (e.g. Jack Ma) literally disappear for months.
Read more about what happened with WeChat as well: https://chinamediaproject.org/2018/04/11/tech-shame-in-the-n...
[+] [-] nova22033|3 years ago|reply
I just ate...ergo, there's no world hunger...
[+] [-] prh8|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] subroutine|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pessimizer|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] npteljes|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DoItToMe81|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] malshe|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 0xbadcafebee|3 years ago|reply
As opposed to a billion people spending 20% of their free time scrolling through a Facebook feed (back when Facebook was a thing).
Honestly, the more these issues get raised, the more it's clear that there's really no difference between a government and a corporation except one spends money and the other makes money.
We have been slowly moving into a post-Democratic version of globalism for decades. Consumerism is not a bulwark against oppression, and we've mostly only had the illusion of choice or control in our political process, with oligarchs deciding everything rather than the "δῆμος". Totalitarian empires have been the dominant model of human civilization for the past couple thousand years; there's no reason to believe it wouldn't continue. China will be leading the new global status quo, which will combine heightened entertainment with heightened totalitarianism. Orwell was a prophet, a century early.
[+] [-] czscout|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Overtonwindow|3 years ago|reply
The only reason they’re really saying it’s a national security threat is because of how big it’s gotten. What about Facebook? I would say Facebook represents a far greater threat to national security than TikTok.
[+] [-] ztratar|3 years ago|reply
Anyways, want to clarify a couple things:
- All of the information presented is accurate. And the questions are fair.
- I am not defending FB or other tech companies broadly. I'm pro data locality.
- China is an authoritarian mass surveillance state that forcibly squashes detractors and limits individual freedoms. The US has made many mistakes, but it still doesn't come comparably close to this.
- Please for the love of God don't compare me to Dan Price. Please? lmao.
[+] [-] version_five|3 years ago|reply
I'd be interested to know what kind of reception this has had in the US, given the reputation of tiktok, regardless of however it actually is for privacy and security
[+] [-] ilrwbwrkhv|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] octoberfranklin|3 years ago|reply
The truth is that every cell phone is a tracking device, and the US government loves this. The only thing they're upset about is anybody other than themselves having all this tracking device data. So when a China-based company gets a hold of it, they're upset, but they can't really articulate why they're upset, because it would amount to an admission of how much they love their precious surveillance economy/state. Instead they just sort of stammer and sputter about "US Data".
I feel a certain Schadenfreude about this situation.
[+] [-] sys_64738|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hayst4ck|3 years ago|reply
The great firewall of china prevents American "weapons" from running rampant on Chinese citizens. Meanwhile America has no digital border, so Chinese weapons are able to run rampant on us. If you ask just about anyone "Is it ok for China to store bombs in our cities, while they prevent us from putting bombs in theirs" the answer is obvious.
Despite this America has chosen a "one internet" strategy to prevent the balkanization of the internet and generally has an anti-protectionism strategy.
The far more interesting question is "despite the obvious national security risk posed by TikTok, why might it be preferable to not block it?"
[+] [-] kelseyfrog|3 years ago|reply
If there is a market for domestic video-based social networks, then it should be low-hanging fruit for a US-based provider to offer a competitive product. If there isn't then the market has spoken, and consumers have voted with their attention.
There aren't any other interpretations that don't deprive the invisible hand of the market from delivering providence to consumers. These are rational actors making voluntary choices. Foreign policy should simply stay out as any intervention is necessarily a market distortion. If market actors are consuming it, it's good definitionally.
[+] [-] yandrypozo|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tablespoon|3 years ago|reply
That's a lazy thing to say. It's obvious that TikTok is qualitatively different from the perspective of the US and its allies.
It's like this: a gun in my hand could be a threat to me because I could accidentally shoot myself in the foot; but that's very different threat than a gun in the hand of a mugger who's pointing it at my head.
[+] [-] hulitu|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ineedasername|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] beepbooptheory|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cwkoss|3 years ago|reply
All the anti-tiktok takes seem to be rooted in sinophobia and nationalist sour grapes. I don't like megacorps slurping my info up, but these conversations seem to have huge blinders around what has become standard practice for American web companies - especially when handling the data of foreign users.
[+] [-] nova22033|3 years ago|reply
What data does the CCP have? The people I follow? The kind of videos I like to watch. My favorites? Videos I "liked"? How exactly is this a national security threat?
I'm all for pushing back against the CCP but it's not clear what "data" they have