Is any of this much different from pop boy bands of the 00's? You make generic, catchy songs that are hard to resist. Then have a group of four or five attractive teens perform the song. And then Highlight each individual so people form a parasocial relationship with the band members. The fanaticism follows quite easily from there.
As someone who enjoys both kpop and western pop I feel there's definitely something that about kpop that creates a more intense fandom, but it's not easy to put one's finger on why exactly. One reason might be that in the western music industry there's more of an assumption that the product is the music whereas in kpop the artist is the product. Kpop artists put out a lot of material that makes you feel close to them and makes them relatable. I'd say that the culture of Korean media is more intimate in general. Kpop stars appear on a lot of tv shows where they just play games, share stories, spend time with at their home, work, coffee shop, restaurant. If you have a favorite western pop star you might see them on a talk show or read their Twitter feed, but it doesn't really feel like you're spending personal time with them week after week.
It’s wildly different. Not a sports guy but it’s like NFL vs CFL. Sure they’re both football but the industries built around them are millions of miles apart. Kpop has the support and resources of a nation state with an explicit objective to become the world’s leading exporter of culture.
The behaviours of the K-pop fans in my life don’t resemble anything like the fans of boy bands growing up. Do you remember vast swathes of wealthy, intelligent 30-40yr olds listening to Backstreet Boys, selling and trading merch, building shrines, etc
It seems the K-pop industry has come up with a somewhat repeatable machine for churning out these bands: they manage everything from scouting young talent and training them, writing the songs, merch, events, etc?
These days, the members get involved more in every facet, including doing their own choreography & writing / producing their own songs.
Seventeen in particular pushed their choreography to the point where it feels like they made it a new sub-genre. Kinda feels like a concentrated Broadway show.
As I was reading the article I was thinking the same thing. This is just the most recently evolved version, now including things like social media and online communities. It was still an interesting analysis to read. I wonder how the numbers compare for the biggest boybands of 2002, 2012, and 2022.
many (most?) kpop members are contractually required to adhere to the image built for them. There have been cases of a kpop member's storyline being around their love of someone and when the actor/actress is found to be cheating they lose the contract.
I know of one kpop member who attempted to keep their marriage a secret as a result.
Real reason for K-pop success: hire the best Swedish pop songwriters in the world and give them carte blanche to create any crazy songs they want. Same with Korean car companies and hiring the best German and Italian designers. Start with money, import talent, then cut them loose.
This is absolutely true and I wish more people knew.. They even imported several New Jack Swing producers (the type of HipHop/RNB 90s dance style that was popular in the 90s.. Think Bobby Brown/Keith Sweat/GUY).. Korea is the ONLY nation on earth still making NJS, and where NJS is still relatively popular, pleading out into several kpop tracks. The producer who created that, Teddy Riley, and several others have been going there and producing KPOP for decades now..
You know, the best Swedish pop songwriters in the world could probably do a really good job on the musical accompaniment to a K-pop song, but they're likely to be among the worst possible people to write the song. Any three-year-old Korean kid would be a better choice.
K-pop bands are really are great at building loyal followings, but this article doesn't feel to me like the right resource for learning how they manage it.
Eg, it's mostly generic 'focus on personal stories,' 'lower barriers to entry,' and 'foster a good community' advice advocated everywhere you look in the blog-o-sphere (is that still an expression?)
Does anybody have any other articles they would recommend on the topic? Eg, about the details that make these groups actually excel at this compared to say the average blogger?
kpop has the highest number of jargons: nugu, sasaeng, maknae, pak, lead vocal, main vocal, black ocean, relay dance, aegyo, fancam, girlcrush, visual, bias
I think kpop artists spend more time building an emotional connection with their fans. In Korea kpop stars are on TV a lot, usually doing things like playing games together, sharing stories, hanging out at home, at work, at a cafe or restaurant. It makes you feel like you know them personally. With social media there are more people doing things like this, and those people have similarly devoted fans (e.g. the Kardashians). In the west artists still expect and want some degree is privacy, they want to make music but don't necessarily want to be a "professional famous person". My understanding is that for a kpop artist that's basically part of the contract.
> But activism on unrelated issues, even important ones, puts up barriers for no good reason.
It’s interesting framing. Some might view this as pure to your values, some might view this as lacking in values, but it certainly got my attention. Reducing this quote down, the claim is “activism on unrelated important issues has no value [to your business].”
I hate corporations being activists so much. That's individuals' role, if you don't vote you don't get to be an activist. In reality this means corporations have loud voices and fat wallets drowning out the small guy's voice and effectively changing democracy to corporocracy. Maybe companies should run for office too then since they are now persons.
But that quote I think is just saying to pick and choose your battles wisely.
You can't blame half of america feeling alienated in their own country when bigcorpo uses their might in every avenue possible to oppose their views (conservatives), despite what you may think of them you still have to share a country with the people you disagree with. People shouldn't have to fight or have political discourse against companies, it should be individuals that debate, discuss and influence political outcomes in a democracy.
No doubt the post is correct but I wish "make good products and show them off" was there. Quality of product should in an ideal world be what attracte people who support a company. In tech at least, that seems to be why people support products, you hear about a myriad of products for any vertical but which one is good and cheap?
Question about not getting involved with politics in your fandom: how does this apply to pop stars like Lizzo, Lady Gaga, Lil Nas X, Nicki Minaj? They all have huge, highly fervent fandoms too. And they're pretty darn political all the time.
I feel like I have to comment. I can't speak to the others, but Lil Nas X is hardly political. He is just black and gay. And people don't like that, because it undermines cultural expectations of black people and gay people at the same time. He doesn't fit into an advertisement checkbox. This makes people with narrow viewpoints uncomfortable. And so his very existence becomes 'political'.
He does regularly troll on twitter, but it isn't like he is pushing an agenda other than trying to exist /how he exists/ and not for /how you would like him to exist/.
If Lil Nas X is political, then so is Kieth Urban. Both of them are just writing songs about what they know, but somehow only the less mainstream artist is considered 'political'.
But even though Asia has a lot of rappers, they’re not allowed to do anything interesting or illegal, and if you ever do drugs you’re instantly blacklisted and all your work is erased from stores forevermore.
I’ve liked Azealia Banks for ages even through her politically incorrect meltdowns and her music just keeps getting better.
A zoomer I was at a party with recently said “yaaa she’s good but like sooo controversial” in a hushed and nervous way like we were in high school and about to go smoke a cigarette.
Tbf the authors comment was don't take political action outside of your main mission. Political activism from all those artists are arguably part of their culture, the same culture that underscores the subversivesness of American pop culture in general, cemented in the 60s as very anti establishment. Different ball game in East Asia
- Keep in mind these bands are disposable. They're typically tied to a generation, a slice in time, and then they fade away. Perhaps that's by design because sustaining such a high sugar diet isn't possible?
- That said, ultimately it's about connecting with your audience. Marketing is typically about awareness and/or driving sales. But these bands go further and connect with their audience. They give the audience what they want *and then some* and do that on the appropriate platforms.
- But easier said than done. There's a connection I have on LinkedIn. She's always posting - nearly always video - about her (SEO) agency. Dogs in the office, someone's birthday, etc. I don't remember a single time she's posted something of use to me. Maybe that would work if she was a K-Pop band? But for who I suspect her audience is, it often feels off target.
> Keep in mind these bands are disposable. They're typically tied to a generation, a slice in time, and then they fade away.
That applies to most media. There are some art/music/games/tv/movies that stand the test of time, but that's not the rule and you can't really create assuming you're going to last forever, even if you're hot for fifteen minutes.
How many people are still doing Wordle right now? I bet it's less than 5-10% of how many people were doing it at its peak near the beginning of the year, and that was huge at the time, seemed like pretty much everyone on social media were doing it (and/or one of its variants).
For music, how many people can keep creating hits for more than a generation? Pretty much just Weird Al and Madonna, isn't it?
You missed use the most mentally ill teenagers you can find to work 24/7 into creating tweets with your hashtag so it reaches top 10 worldwide or at least in a few countries, K-pop bands do that, a lot: https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/the-stans-who-post-so-mu...
No need to call them mentally ill. It's fun to create a large amount of attention to the thing you're a fan of.
I'm from a smaller country and around 2010-2012 smaller bands did this as well. It was hilariously easy to create a 'trending topic' in a country back then, so it happened quite a lot.
It's just fun to create attention for the thing you love. The same way people on Hacker News like to share certain (open source) projects and upvote it.
How about build a product people love? There are so many reasons listed in the article, and there are so many counter examples where companies did the opposite and still built a rabid fan base. The only unifying thread is that people will deify products they love.
I regularly use archive.org to avoid the distorting and invasive pop-ups that regularly litter web pages these days, but I feel this is a bit of an overreaction in this case. I suppose they could position the sign-up area at the top of the page (or even in the middle). But tbf, the point of Substack is for readers to stay in touch with their favorite writers and for writers to build a readership. Thus, prompting the reader to subscribe is highly relevant. In that way, though I dislike the intrusiveness of pop-overs, it doesn't seem grossly offensive to me in this case. Certainly not to the point of "fku substk".
Everyone going to ignore the fact that these 'bands' are highly controlled. They can't have a normal social life. Forced plastic surgery, etc. I don't think it's very healthy to have so much fake social content from artists for both fan and artist.
>For a startup, it’s not enough to have followers. If you want people to evangelize for you, stand up for you, and stick with you long term, you need fanatics.
When did people start advocating deleterious to society suggestions, openly and shamelessly?
Not of the "I thought it was a good ideology" kind, which always existed, of the "everybody should recognize that this is bad", like here...
tldr: be consensual to mainstream tastes, jump on every viral bandwagon you notice, encourage frenzieness and addictive behavior. Thanks but no thanks. Thus article is how to destroy any kind of cultural diversity 101. And create vast rigid borderline fanatic groups that upend any systemic stability and routinely create unpredictable cataclysmic events.
I'm half-amused half-shocked that this article is so frank in explaining how this works, without a hint at any consequence.
ziml77|3 years ago
jojok|3 years ago
jorgesborges|3 years ago
The behaviours of the K-pop fans in my life don’t resemble anything like the fans of boy bands growing up. Do you remember vast swathes of wealthy, intelligent 30-40yr olds listening to Backstreet Boys, selling and trading merch, building shrines, etc
jenny91|3 years ago
treme|3 years ago
These days, the members get involved more in every facet, including doing their own choreography & writing / producing their own songs.
Seventeen in particular pushed their choreography to the point where it feels like they made it a new sub-genre. Kinda feels like a concentrated Broadway show.
Timpy|3 years ago
kevin_thibedeau|3 years ago
P5fRxh5kUvp2th|3 years ago
I know of one kpop member who attempted to keep their marriage a secret as a result.
77pt77|3 years ago
carabiner|3 years ago
poisonarena|3 years ago
unknown|3 years ago
[deleted]
thaumasiotes|3 years ago
andrekandre|3 years ago
any interesting articles/videos about that?
barbariangrunge|3 years ago
Eg, it's mostly generic 'focus on personal stories,' 'lower barriers to entry,' and 'foster a good community' advice advocated everywhere you look in the blog-o-sphere (is that still an expression?)
Does anybody have any other articles they would recommend on the topic? Eg, about the details that make these groups actually excel at this compared to say the average blogger?
ergocoder|3 years ago
kpop has the highest number of jargons: nugu, sasaeng, maknae, pak, lead vocal, main vocal, black ocean, relay dance, aegyo, fancam, girlcrush, visual, bias
Guess what they mean.
jojok|3 years ago
oarsinsync|3 years ago
It’s interesting framing. Some might view this as pure to your values, some might view this as lacking in values, but it certainly got my attention. Reducing this quote down, the claim is “activism on unrelated important issues has no value [to your business].”
0cVlTeIATBs|3 years ago
badrabbit|3 years ago
But that quote I think is just saying to pick and choose your battles wisely.
You can't blame half of america feeling alienated in their own country when bigcorpo uses their might in every avenue possible to oppose their views (conservatives), despite what you may think of them you still have to share a country with the people you disagree with. People shouldn't have to fight or have political discourse against companies, it should be individuals that debate, discuss and influence political outcomes in a democracy.
Perhaps we are now in a neo-feudalist society?
citizenkeen|3 years ago
thaumasiotes|3 years ago
Negative value, not no value.
badrabbit|3 years ago
PuppyTailWags|3 years ago
zwkrt|3 years ago
He does regularly troll on twitter, but it isn't like he is pushing an agenda other than trying to exist /how he exists/ and not for /how you would like him to exist/.
If Lil Nas X is political, then so is Kieth Urban. Both of them are just writing songs about what they know, but somehow only the less mainstream artist is considered 'political'.
astrange|3 years ago
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/20/world/asia/bts-un-perform...
But even though Asia has a lot of rappers, they’re not allowed to do anything interesting or illegal, and if you ever do drugs you’re instantly blacklisted and all your work is erased from stores forevermore.
mikrl|3 years ago
A zoomer I was at a party with recently said “yaaa she’s good but like sooo controversial” in a hushed and nervous way like we were in high school and about to go smoke a cigarette.
python_fnanatic|3 years ago
zmgsabst|3 years ago
I don’t know that I’ve seen good numbers on that.
bitwize|3 years ago
chiefalchemist|3 years ago
- Keep in mind these bands are disposable. They're typically tied to a generation, a slice in time, and then they fade away. Perhaps that's by design because sustaining such a high sugar diet isn't possible?
- That said, ultimately it's about connecting with your audience. Marketing is typically about awareness and/or driving sales. But these bands go further and connect with their audience. They give the audience what they want *and then some* and do that on the appropriate platforms.
- But easier said than done. There's a connection I have on LinkedIn. She's always posting - nearly always video - about her (SEO) agency. Dogs in the office, someone's birthday, etc. I don't remember a single time she's posted something of use to me. Maybe that would work if she was a K-Pop band? But for who I suspect her audience is, it often feels off target.
cableshaft|3 years ago
That applies to most media. There are some art/music/games/tv/movies that stand the test of time, but that's not the rule and you can't really create assuming you're going to last forever, even if you're hot for fifteen minutes.
How many people are still doing Wordle right now? I bet it's less than 5-10% of how many people were doing it at its peak near the beginning of the year, and that was huge at the time, seemed like pretty much everyone on social media were doing it (and/or one of its variants).
For music, how many people can keep creating hits for more than a generation? Pretty much just Weird Al and Madonna, isn't it?
mattigames|3 years ago
boredpudding|3 years ago
I'm from a smaller country and around 2010-2012 smaller bands did this as well. It was hilariously easy to create a 'trending topic' in a country back then, so it happened quite a lot.
It's just fun to create attention for the thing you love. The same way people on Hacker News like to share certain (open source) projects and upvote it.
unknown|3 years ago
[deleted]
astrange|3 years ago
uup|3 years ago
idiocrat|3 years ago
Be young and beautiful. Stop being old and ugly.
If you are insist on your right to be old and ugly, then stop being poor and be rich instead.
yazzku|3 years ago
And Slipknot fans are maggots. I know some of you motherfucking maggots are around here too.
moron4hire|3 years ago
metadat|3 years ago
https://archive.ph/dEKil
(For those not wishing to be smacked in the face with a wet fish pop-over registration modal dialog upon scrolling down the page; fku substk)
xwowsersx|3 years ago
dncornholio|3 years ago
coldtea|3 years ago
When did people start advocating deleterious to society suggestions, openly and shamelessly?
Not of the "I thought it was a good ideology" kind, which always existed, of the "everybody should recognize that this is bad", like here...
unknown|3 years ago
[deleted]
keithalewis|3 years ago
frozencell|3 years ago
Kiro|3 years ago
nicbou|3 years ago
lapinot|3 years ago
I'm half-amused half-shocked that this article is so frank in explaining how this works, without a hint at any consequence.
baybal2|3 years ago
[deleted]