Last time I tried pointing out objective truth about the conflict and point to UN observers (OSCE) data on the the continuous bombing of Donbass in the past 8 years (14k civillians killed according to western numbers, I don't even know the Russian ones), I was promptly shadowbanned as was every other comment not strictly critical of Russia. People thinking this attack was unprovoked, should check trusted sources(UN observers, non-profits) and immediately stop relying on social media as their information source. Unfortunately that means HN too for everything political.
As a person who studied propaganda as part of my communicology education I have to point out the role social media plays in the current conflict:
- social media moderators are the new gatekeepers of information
- most social media moderators are working for free - they are working for the gratification
- they restrict information according to their own personal biases. They are not the kind of people that check the of information presented. They would rarely go against the will of the community
- the resulting effect is an echo chamber in which everyone is in virtual agreement over important issues. This forces most people to rethink their positions or face being ostracized
- people that persist, will get continuously silenced until they leave the community
- since this is also happening to this forum, expect a drop in comment quality, because many posters are leaving as they are dissuaded from participating in the community
In this thread we're talking about the upswing of the Ukranian economy, right after having a big chunk of their infrastructure destroyed in the past few days of bombing. So in case you're wondering how it's possible people believe such nonsense, this is your explanation. They either don't and leave, or for the sake of inclusion in the community, change their views to whatever is being displayed as the overwhelmingly supported position.
There is only a slim chance this post won't be removed after minutes and I will probably leave after that.
> objective truth about the conflict and point to UN observers (OSCE) data on the the continuous bombing of Donbass in the past 8 years (14k civillians killed according to western numbers
This is a misrepresentation of facts at best. The "14k" figure being cited here is the total sum of all casualties [1], including 4.400 Ukrainian soldiers and 6.500 Russian & pro-Russian militants. The number of civilian casualties during the entire conflict is 3.404, 8.8% of which are actually attributed to a single incident: The shootdown of MH17 in 2014, where all 298 passangers on board were killed after the aircraft was shot down by Russian militants.
"Here in the U.S., the war has also exposed the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of an ideologically diverse set of foreign-policy commentators: the “anti-imperialists” who routinely justify blatant acts of imperial conquest, and the “realists” who make arguments unmoored from reality."
This is actually a nice list of people missing the official narrative:
What's so ridiculous to you about the article? I don't know shit about Ukraine, but when you go to zero there's nowhere to go from there but up, so it doesn't sound insane to me that right now it's going up.
(I agree that something about the framing seems weird, because it talks about "economic success" but then cites things like "a budget deficit of $38bn next year, equivalent to 19% of pre-war GDP," which doesn't really spark joy.)
It's not non-sense. Damage to existing stock and GDP growth are very different things. When Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, it devastated the city. The loss to the US was estimated to be above $100 billion. Still, as far as the GDP was concerned, it was not impacted. GDP is by definition "gross domestic product", and I'll emphasize "product" here.
Do the citizens of Ukraine produce more stuff now than they did 6 months ago, or one year ago, or 5 years ago. Well, for one thing, they probably produce more weapons, munitions and military materiel. They are busy fixing stuff destroyed by the invaders. To me it sounds completely plausible that their GDP is increasing, even as their country is being bombed by Russia.
> People thinking this attack was unprovoked, should check trusted sources
If the attack was indeed provoked, why does Russian government and media constantly needs to lie about the reasons? Nuclear weapons, US-funded biolabs, Crucified Boy story, Ukraine plans to attack Russia/Belarus, etc?
> continuous bombing of Donbass in the past 8 years (14k civillians killed according to western numbers
Russia solution seems to be to bomb Donbass even more with even more casualties in 7 months. No matter how you feel about Ukraine, Russians aren't the good guys here.
Sounds like you're saying that Ukrainians somehow provoked this:
- Russian armed forces have shot at civilians attempting to flee
- summary executions, unlawful confinement, torture, ill-treatment, rape and other sexual violence committed in areas occupied by Russian armed forces
- Children have become the victims of the full spectrum of violations investigated by the Commission, including indiscriminate attacks, torture, and rape, suffering the predictable psychological consequences
- Victims range from four to over 80 years old. Perpetrators raped the women and girls in their homes or took them and raped them in unoccupied dwellings. In most cases, these acts also amount to torture and cruel or inhumane treatment for the victims and for relatives who were forced to watch.
I would recommend everyone saying Ukraine should just concede to read this report. Would you give the same advice if this was happening to your country?
It is very cynic to stipulate a growth when the country lost its industrial regions due to Russian invasion
By the way the historical issue of corruption is not yet answered
The Russians are still actively attacking including destroying infrastructure with loitering munitions. This is so premature as to be either foolish or manipulation.
You listed two options but you're forgetting a third: you have almost no reliable information or context so the actual choices made aren't interpretable by you in any meaningful way
I think that Ukraine's economy is in a war footing and can't reasonably be compared to non-war metrics. I am sure that many or most Ukrainians are working and producing the hardest they've ever done. But the returns they are working for are not financial. Not strictly.
You just can't apply normal standards. Ukraine is bustling; even flaring up. Can they sustain it? I hope they can, long enough. They're certainly managing better than Russia.
You feel very alive and alert when somebody pulls a gun on you; doesn't mean that's a healthy way to live.
Is this literally a joke? We've sent billions of dollars to their country in weapons, the country is literally a war zone and has an elaborate history of corruption.
The only folks economically growing from this calamity are execs at American defense companies.
I'll cite Economics Explained video on the subject - this is propaganda plain and simple. It's insane the lengths to which we as America are willing to prop up a war we had no business getting involved in or stoking :(
[+] [-] Garvi|3 years ago|reply
As a person who studied propaganda as part of my communicology education I have to point out the role social media plays in the current conflict: - social media moderators are the new gatekeepers of information
- most social media moderators are working for free - they are working for the gratification
- they restrict information according to their own personal biases. They are not the kind of people that check the of information presented. They would rarely go against the will of the community
- the resulting effect is an echo chamber in which everyone is in virtual agreement over important issues. This forces most people to rethink their positions or face being ostracized
- people that persist, will get continuously silenced until they leave the community
- since this is also happening to this forum, expect a drop in comment quality, because many posters are leaving as they are dissuaded from participating in the community
In this thread we're talking about the upswing of the Ukranian economy, right after having a big chunk of their infrastructure destroyed in the past few days of bombing. So in case you're wondering how it's possible people believe such nonsense, this is your explanation. They either don't and leave, or for the sake of inclusion in the community, change their views to whatever is being displayed as the overwhelmingly supported position.
There is only a slim chance this post won't be removed after minutes and I will probably leave after that.
[+] [-] zarqan|3 years ago|reply
This is a misrepresentation of facts at best. The "14k" figure being cited here is the total sum of all casualties [1], including 4.400 Ukrainian soldiers and 6.500 Russian & pro-Russian militants. The number of civilian casualties during the entire conflict is 3.404, 8.8% of which are actually attributed to a single incident: The shootdown of MH17 in 2014, where all 298 passangers on board were killed after the aircraft was shot down by Russian militants.
[1] https://ukraine.un.org/sites/default/files/2022-02/Conflict-...
[+] [-] hackandthink|3 years ago|reply
This is actually a nice list of people missing the official narrative:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/09/anti-war-c...
[+] [-] mquander|3 years ago|reply
(I agree that something about the framing seems weird, because it talks about "economic success" but then cites things like "a budget deficit of $38bn next year, equivalent to 19% of pre-war GDP," which doesn't really spark joy.)
[+] [-] credit_guy|3 years ago|reply
It's not non-sense. Damage to existing stock and GDP growth are very different things. When Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, it devastated the city. The loss to the US was estimated to be above $100 billion. Still, as far as the GDP was concerned, it was not impacted. GDP is by definition "gross domestic product", and I'll emphasize "product" here.
Do the citizens of Ukraine produce more stuff now than they did 6 months ago, or one year ago, or 5 years ago. Well, for one thing, they probably produce more weapons, munitions and military materiel. They are busy fixing stuff destroyed by the invaders. To me it sounds completely plausible that their GDP is increasing, even as their country is being bombed by Russia.
[+] [-] hbrn|3 years ago|reply
If the attack was indeed provoked, why does Russian government and media constantly needs to lie about the reasons? Nuclear weapons, US-funded biolabs, Crucified Boy story, Ukraine plans to attack Russia/Belarus, etc?
> continuous bombing of Donbass in the past 8 years (14k civillians killed according to western numbers
Russia solution seems to be to bomb Donbass even more with even more casualties in 7 months. No matter how you feel about Ukraine, Russians aren't the good guys here.
[+] [-] hbrn|3 years ago|reply
FYI, UN observers released a report just 2 days ago.
https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/2022-10/A-77-533-A...
Sounds like you're saying that Ukrainians somehow provoked this:
- Russian armed forces have shot at civilians attempting to flee
- summary executions, unlawful confinement, torture, ill-treatment, rape and other sexual violence committed in areas occupied by Russian armed forces
- Children have become the victims of the full spectrum of violations investigated by the Commission, including indiscriminate attacks, torture, and rape, suffering the predictable psychological consequences
- Victims range from four to over 80 years old. Perpetrators raped the women and girls in their homes or took them and raped them in unoccupied dwellings. In most cases, these acts also amount to torture and cruel or inhumane treatment for the victims and for relatives who were forced to watch.
I would recommend everyone saying Ukraine should just concede to read this report. Would you give the same advice if this was happening to your country?
[+] [-] NicoJuicy|3 years ago|reply
Let's be real here.
Gas was found in Crimea in 2008 and it could replace Russian gas.
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/world/europe/in-taking-cr...
Whatever Russia is claiming about NATO, that ain't it.
Fuck Russia.
And I'm saying that as a European citizen who is helping Ukranians where i can in my city.
[+] [-] hulitu|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DanG2Point0|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] karkov|3 years ago|reply
https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/why-is-ukraine-such-an-eco...
[+] [-] Proven|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] nix23|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] LegitShady|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] snapcaster|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kbelder|3 years ago|reply
You just can't apply normal standards. Ukraine is bustling; even flaring up. Can they sustain it? I hope they can, long enough. They're certainly managing better than Russia.
You feel very alive and alert when somebody pulls a gun on you; doesn't mean that's a healthy way to live.
[+] [-] 71a54xd|3 years ago|reply
The only folks economically growing from this calamity are execs at American defense companies.
I'll cite Economics Explained video on the subject - this is propaganda plain and simple. It's insane the lengths to which we as America are willing to prop up a war we had no business getting involved in or stoking :(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCt-jsnUnXo
[+] [-] theropost|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _-david-_|3 years ago|reply
The Ukrainian oligarchs are probably doing pretty well.