I don't understand why they got rid of the F-keys.
The keyboard is a beast; no one is using it for portability. Why make it smaller by losing a row of keys? (Do the opposite — add another couple of rows, for kicks! Moonlander adds a column [1])
Same for Bluetooth — I don't get the attraction — when are you taking your giant keyboard away from your desk? If you never needed to plug it in, that would be slightly better, but it still needs to be charged. Even if it's only a few ms of extra latency, what's the upside?
This is more idiosyncratic, but I put a Magic Trackpad in the center of the Advantage2 [2] — highly recommended — so losing that center piece is worse for me.
The advantage360 loses the function key row but does add two interior columns, similar to the moonlander's.
I'm less concerned with the F keys but I'd miss the Esc key in the upper-left, and the printscrn and volume buttons.
I don't put anything in the vast middle space of my advantage2 but I appreciate the single piece design and the physical cable. Not sure if the advantage360 is right for me either.
I could see Bluetooth being useful if the keyboard allows for easily switching between devices: your significant other texts you on the phone, so you quickly switch it to your phone to type out a message, then switch back. (I don't know if this keyboard can do that though.)
I bought a wireless Microsoft ergonomic keyboard a decade ago, with the idea that I could kickback in my chair, with my feet on the desk, and type away with the keyboard in my lap. I've done that maybe five times in the ten years of owning the keyboard. It was not worth the dropped/overly-repeated keypresses over the years (though it was wireless, but not Bluetooth).
I'm looking forward to getting my glove80 in the next month or two, which supports multiple devices via Bluetooth or one device via USB.
No function keys is a complete deal breaker for me. I do not care about layers or whatever ergonomic arguments that arise. I want to be able to mash F5 and start the debugger whenever I need it.
Also, $439 is a very stiff price. I thought my Freestyle Pro at ~$150 was already luxurious.
Layout layers are the future. Mapping more than three keys per finger is unergonomic. You want to switch between layers quickly with modifier keys actuated by your thumb. With this approach you can ergonomically access 204 symbols (34 (pads) * 3 (layers) * 2 (shift)) with 34 keys.
Heck even three pads per finger is too much imo and I need to devote more research into two pad per finger layouts which rely on multi-pad press combos (stenography) to avoid using the bottom row and pinkies.
Till then you'll probably catch me using MTGAP 30 on an ANSI.
OP here. The function keys can be accessed via the FN layer. I’ve added new keymap images where you can see each individual layer. The old Advantage2’s FN keys were not good, so they get rid of it. If you start using layers, you’ll see that most key combos or keys are not actually that useful.
I used to feel the same. So when I was looking for some relief and an ergonomic layout, I picked the X-Bows. It has fn keys and was a nice introduction into the non-standard layouts. It made a big difference for me.
Then I picked up a keyboardio atreus. It took me a few weeks to get comfortable with it. But now using layers feels natural- I don’t have to leave the home row!
The keyboard's firmware is very flexible- you can remap all of the keys, and also do things like "mod tap" or "layer tap"- for example, when I tap the backspace key (one of the thumb buttons), it sends a backspace. If I hold the key down, it puts they keyboard into a layout where I can more easily access the symbols used commonly in programming. I have the delete key (which is next to it in the thumb cluster) act as an extra Ctrl key when held down.
I've also got the freestyle pro, I can't really imagine wanting a fancier keyboard (but if anyone wants my F-keys they can have them, the things are useless mostly).
With layers, you mash the F5 key even faster, without moving your wrists. Usually you press a layer selection key with one hand, and the F5 on that layer with the other, in one fluid movement.
Looks good! A customizable split keyboard was one of the better investments I've made recently. No more hand pain after my work day.
Retail options like the Kinesis and Moonlander are perfectly fine products, but there is also an abundance of (typically open-source) keyboard designs these days:
There are exactly three main things ergonomic keyboards need in order to be correctly ergonomic:
1) Split (so the distance is adjustable for your body, depending on your shoulder width)
2) Two axes of adjustable tilt (sides tented down, far side angled down)
3) Palm rests for when not typing
It's shocking to me how many ergonomic keyboards get the first two wrong -- they're not split, and/or the axes aren't adjustable at all or only one is.
This keyboard is split (yay!) but appears to be adjustable only along one axis (boo).
All three of these are dwarfed by key wells (i.e. do the keys sit in an indentation, or do you have to tilt your wrists upwards?) for me. It's always subjective.
For me, the most important thing by far is to not have to extend my pinkies to another column. A good thumb cluster and mod-tap implementation dwarf any of what you listed for my needs.
Another obvious thing that few keyboards get right is to use the thumb in opposition to the fingers. Practically that means chords should involve the thumb and another finger. The Kinesis thumb keys aren’t bad for this.
Anyone wanting to design a keyboard or even just remap an existing one should read John Napier’s excellent book Hands[1].
Any recommendations for a keyboard that does everything well?
I have found Microsoft Sculpt to be pretty decent. In particular, it has negative tilt which I think is the most ergonomic option. Build quality is not very good, though. And I would prefer a wired option for a lower latency. Also, I have heard they are no longer produced and they are just selling stocked items. Interestingly, I do not dislike their shallow keyswitches. I find them much less tiring in the long run, and I type much faster.
I’ve been an Advantage user for almost eight years and I can’t imagine using anything else. I type with it on my lap and it feels perfectly comfortable so I probably won’t rush to buy this model. But if I did, the portability would be an immediate win. The original Advantage is massive and its comfortable typing shape makes for an awkward size in backpacks. This would be a huge win for any Advantage user who likes to work from different desks.
I'm designing an extended (i.e. no layers) version of Atreus that's still portable by having some smaller keys, will eventually talk about it more on https://reddit.com/r/ergomobilecomputers
people don't understand the typing on the lap thing. I can use the keyboard in a variety of different positions (including lying down), and my wrists never come in at a strange angle.
I'd love bluetooth, but have two separate units in the 360 doesn't really work for me...I guess I could make something like their bridge that's a little more sturdy and adjustable.
I entertained buying the advantage (maybe 2?) before ultimately buying a keyboardio model 1. The main things I didn't like about the advantage was the fixed geometry and small/awkward function keys. Had this been out, it would have been strongly considered, looks like it addressed my primary concerns.
That said, I loved the keyboardio so much that I recently received the updated model 100, and love it more than the original. The hot swappable switches are great, and the layout is really efficient for me (admittedly, took a frustrating few weeks to get proficient).
Knowing what I do now, I'd personally choose the keyboardio 100 over the kinesis 360, but I'm glad there is another flexible high quality split kb on the market.
I recently switched to the Advantage 2 (after trying the Kyria, Ferris, and Freestyle Edge). And now I feel that there is no way back after having experienced the Advantage’s key wells. They are just fantastic. So, I think from now on, the Advantage 2/360, Dactyl, and perhaps Glove80 are the only options for me.
I don’t really use function keys, but if I did, I’d just map them to the second layer.
I got the Kinesis Advantage2 last year. I got used to it, almost reaching my laptop typing speed. But I actually don't find it super comfortable.
To be honest, no keyboard matches the comfort of my macbook with the keyboard being under the level of the palms.
I also more recently got the keychron K3 (low profile) and realized that the thing I don't like in the KA2 is my wrists being locked.
I think it's not enough to consider a keyboard without a complete setup, including where the hands / arms will rest and where the mouse is positioned.
For example even the distance of my laptop stand makes a huge difference because it affects how far my keyboard can be from my torso, hence whether where my arms rest on the table.
The Advantage360 feels like Kinesis' answer to the DIY Dactyl keyboard — which has a Kinesis-like layout, but which you would have to download, 3D-print, build and solder yourself. Being open-source (parametric SCAD), there are also a bunch of derived designs out there.
I’ve been enjoying this keyboard a lot as well. Unfortunately, it seems to randomly keep waking up my MacBook every several minutes and the only fix I’ve been able to find is to manually turn the switch off when I’m done using the computer.
I’m also not a huge fan of having to charge both sides individually although so far the battery life seems quite good. I don’t move my computer often and use a dock so it would be nice to be able to just leave it plugged in without worrying about battery, but doing that requires both sides to each have a cable plugged into a power source.
> I've used the Apple Magic Keyboard wirelessly for years with no latency issues.
I think the logic here is subtly wrong. I think it’s pretty likely that Apple thoroughly test their keyboards to make sure Bluetooth works well and that they have low end to end latency. I think most other keyboard makers don’t test these things, even if they claim to be fast. Though Apple also have an advantage from the small travel decreasing time between touching a key and the switch closing, which may be part of the measured latency depending on the methodology
“ During these eleven months of waiting, the customs law here in Turkey changed numerous times. Because the keyboard cost more than 150 euros, I could no longer withdraw it from customs, and I had to arrange a company specialized in importing goods from customs. After some time preparing notarized documents and paying almost %50 of the base price I paid for the Advantage2 360 Pro”
I can understand somewhat the import duties, but why the rigamarole?
I backed the Dygma defy https://dygma.com/products/dygma-defy earlier this year. Iirc it was just days or weeks before the kinesis360 announcement. But I don’t care, I’m just so excited for there to be 2 very high quality boards that are really pushing the envelope. Looking forward to comparisons between the two
I used kinesis advantage for about two months. Ended switching to Ultimate Hacking Keyboard and have never been happier - haven't switched the keyboard since - about 4 years now. Coding on Kinesis was just such a pain in terms of usual keys - braces et all: weird, up down arrows: weird. I thought I would adjust after two months, but did not happen for me. YMMV
I'm convinced they used such a weird placement of some things like that to prompt/goad people into exploring the built-in remapping.
The bizarre separation of the arrow keys into left-right and up-down on two different hands was the very first thing I fixed. Now the bottom four keys on my right keywell are left, down, up, right (and I moved the square brackets to the left hand where the left/right were).
(This isn't really ideal because now [] requires a lot of finger travel to type compared to how often I type them. I was excited for the 360 supporting ZMK but I've sworn off bluetooth where it can be avoided, so I'm probably going to just keep my plain-old Advantage until it dies and see if they're "fixed" the 360 line.)
This looks excellent, but I was hoping for something other than Bluetooth.
I have sworn by Logitech wireless accessories for years because of their integrated wireless which presents to the OS as a regular USB device driver, so I can use the accessories in BIOS, during OS installations, etc without any hassle.
I also like the Logitech USB dongles because I find the Windows Bluetooth keyboard support to be very much a second class citizen, with slow performance and the keyboad noticeably lags both randomly and when the system is under load, unlike a USB device.
This got me wondering if there was some solution for this, such as having a Bluetooth keyboard communicate with another piece of hardware that replayed the inputs as USB. Or perhaps Windows has upped their game in the couple of years since I last tried a Bluetooth keyboard?
I know on Mac it just works (tm) but sadly I cannot escape Windows at work at the moment.
Having just built a small PC after having used Macs for years, I was _astounded_ how reliant they are on plug-in keyboards. It's like I'm in the late 1990s again!
There are forum comments like "wait, what are you trying to do, bluetooth keyboards are only for mobile devices and Macs, aren't they?", like that's an acceptable thing. I'm not sure about Windows, but you can't even wake Linux from sleep with a bluetooth keyboard or mouse!
Sounds like you can always just plug it in as well. I’ve heard lots of stories of the Logitech stuff causing interference (I think it’s 2.4ghz IIRC?), and then you also need a dongle. I understand your windows needs (versus say a laptop), but why not just be wired when you need to access the bios?
the lack of F-keys is baffling. The vertical real estate is non-issue on a desktop, you win nothing by getting rid of the F-row.
the lack of "]" and "\" keys is a deal-breaker for non-English layouts. The moment you have more letters in the alphabet than 26, you have to readjust your typing habit for the other language.
In the world of fully-custom DIY keyboard that's way too much to compromise on for a high-end keyboard
> the lack of F-keys is baffling. The vertical real estate is non-issue on a desktop, you win nothing by getting rid of the F-row.
It's not too outlandish considering the rest of the keyboard, compared to a standard keyboard.
It looks like the Kinesis Advantage 360 is really intended for you to use it with two hands on home row. So, compared to a common layout:
- it's symmetrical & isn't row-staggered,
- lacks the numpad/cursor keys/etc. (which would require your hand moving some distance),
- it lacks a giant spacebar, and instead offers more keys the thumb can reach.
So, many of the design decisions favour hands resting on home row, and getting rid of keys which require moving the hand some distance. -- Dropping the F-keys is in line with this.
I'd like to try a split keyboard, but I'm just going to come out and say it - I like numpads. I have mine set up to snap windows to different parts of the screen, and it's great.
For whatever reason, moving my hand across a large keyboard feels... fine. More comfortable than pressing multiple modifier keys.
Numpad is essential if you use software that takes advantage of it, like Blender.
I made a split keyboard that put the num pad in the middle since that space is normally wasted, but it wasn't very nice to use. Neither of your hands appear from your gut, which is where it would need to be to use the number pad comfortably (and that's why traditional keyboards put off to one side). I just chord to get the number pad keys now.
There are probably keyboards that put the number pad on your left. That might be the perfect match for a right-handed mouse user. (Left-handed mouse users have been happy for decades, I bet.)
It's mostly a matter of discipline to not run back to what you're comfortable with to get used to unusual layouts. They will become second nature to you if you use them long enough.
I am not suggesting that you must do this, mind you. Just that you almost certainly could get used to it if you forced yourself to. The benefits of doing so may not be worthwhile, though.
[+] [-] maximilianroos|3 years ago|reply
The keyboard is a beast; no one is using it for portability. Why make it smaller by losing a row of keys? (Do the opposite — add another couple of rows, for kicks! Moonlander adds a column [1])
Same for Bluetooth — I don't get the attraction — when are you taking your giant keyboard away from your desk? If you never needed to plug it in, that would be slightly better, but it still needs to be charged. Even if it's only a few ms of extra latency, what's the upside?
This is more idiosyncratic, but I put a Magic Trackpad in the center of the Advantage2 [2] — highly recommended — so losing that center piece is worse for me.
1: https://www.zsa.io/moonlander
2: https://twitter.com/max_sixty/status/1144236070369988609
[+] [-] perrygeo|3 years ago|reply
I'm less concerned with the F keys but I'd miss the Esc key in the upper-left, and the printscrn and volume buttons.
I don't put anything in the vast middle space of my advantage2 but I appreciate the single piece design and the physical cable. Not sure if the advantage360 is right for me either.
[+] [-] redsaz|3 years ago|reply
I bought a wireless Microsoft ergonomic keyboard a decade ago, with the idea that I could kickback in my chair, with my feet on the desk, and type away with the keyboard in my lap. I've done that maybe five times in the ten years of owning the keyboard. It was not worth the dropped/overly-repeated keypresses over the years (though it was wireless, but not Bluetooth).
I'm looking forward to getting my glove80 in the next month or two, which supports multiple devices via Bluetooth or one device via USB.
[+] [-] neuronexmachina|3 years ago|reply
I haven't seen anybody do this yet with the 360, but a lot of split-keyboard users chair-mount them: https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/xgqp7b/s...
I could see Bluetooth being handy for that.
[+] [-] fbdab103|3 years ago|reply
Also, $439 is a very stiff price. I thought my Freestyle Pro at ~$150 was already luxurious.
[+] [-] orangepurple|3 years ago|reply
Heck even three pads per finger is too much imo and I need to devote more research into two pad per finger layouts which rely on multi-pad press combos (stenography) to avoid using the bottom row and pinkies.
Till then you'll probably catch me using MTGAP 30 on an ANSI.
[+] [-] farslan|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jcpst|3 years ago|reply
Then I picked up a keyboardio atreus. It took me a few weeks to get comfortable with it. But now using layers feels natural- I don’t have to leave the home row!
Having an F5 foot pedal would be fun…
[+] [-] cbm-vic-20|3 years ago|reply
https://zmk.dev/docs/behaviors/hold-tap
[+] [-] bee_rider|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] least|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rgoulter|3 years ago|reply
I tend to think this is more a matter of preference, so, sure, this keyboard isn't for you.
But what's your experience with layering? Is it "tried it, reached the same typing speed as before, didn't like it", or?
[+] [-] nine_k|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] platz|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] imoreno|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brenainn|3 years ago|reply
Retail options like the Kinesis and Moonlander are perfectly fine products, but there is also an abundance of (typically open-source) keyboard designs these days:
https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards
https://golem.hu/boards/
Note that anything that runs QMK and Pro Micro MCUs can generally be made wireless using ZMK and nice!nano MCUs.
Be warned that it's a deep rabbit hole. Personally I use and really enjoy the TBK Mini:
https://github.com/Bastardkb/TBK-Mini
[+] [-] crazygringo|3 years ago|reply
1) Split (so the distance is adjustable for your body, depending on your shoulder width)
2) Two axes of adjustable tilt (sides tented down, far side angled down)
3) Palm rests for when not typing
It's shocking to me how many ergonomic keyboards get the first two wrong -- they're not split, and/or the axes aren't adjustable at all or only one is.
This keyboard is split (yay!) but appears to be adjustable only along one axis (boo).
[+] [-] tazjin|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rtlfe|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] User23|3 years ago|reply
Anyone wanting to design a keyboard or even just remap an existing one should read John Napier’s excellent book Hands[1].
[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1082840.Hands
[+] [-] nextos|3 years ago|reply
I have found Microsoft Sculpt to be pretty decent. In particular, it has negative tilt which I think is the most ergonomic option. Build quality is not very good, though. And I would prefer a wired option for a lower latency. Also, I have heard they are no longer produced and they are just selling stocked items. Interestingly, I do not dislike their shallow keyswitches. I find them much less tiring in the long run, and I type much faster.
[+] [-] sickcodebruh|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] seltzered_|3 years ago|reply
Have you considered an Atreus?
I'm designing an extended (i.e. no layers) version of Atreus that's still portable by having some smaller keys, will eventually talk about it more on https://reddit.com/r/ergomobilecomputers
[+] [-] convolvatron|3 years ago|reply
I'd love bluetooth, but have two separate units in the 360 doesn't really work for me...I guess I could make something like their bridge that's a little more sturdy and adjustable.
[+] [-] perrylaj|3 years ago|reply
That said, I loved the keyboardio so much that I recently received the updated model 100, and love it more than the original. The hot swappable switches are great, and the layout is really efficient for me (admittedly, took a frustrating few weeks to get proficient).
Knowing what I do now, I'd personally choose the keyboardio 100 over the kinesis 360, but I'm glad there is another flexible high quality split kb on the market.
[+] [-] microtonal|3 years ago|reply
I don’t really use function keys, but if I did, I’d just map them to the second layer.
[+] [-] ttarr|3 years ago|reply
I really want one, but I'm not sure, I like resting my palm when typing.
Also, are the wells well curved/deep? I can't tell from static images on the web.
Thanks.
[+] [-] Labo333|3 years ago|reply
To be honest, no keyboard matches the comfort of my macbook with the keyboard being under the level of the palms.
I also more recently got the keychron K3 (low profile) and realized that the thing I don't like in the KA2 is my wrists being locked.
I think it's not enough to consider a keyboard without a complete setup, including where the hands / arms will rest and where the mouse is positioned.
For example even the distance of my laptop stand makes a huge difference because it affects how far my keyboard can be from my torso, hence whether where my arms rest on the table.
[+] [-] Findecanor|3 years ago|reply
<https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard>
There is a PCB kit for the Dactyl to reduce the amount of handwiring:
<https://bastardkb.com/product/flexible-pcb/>
[+] [-] alxlu|3 years ago|reply
I’m also not a huge fan of having to charge both sides individually although so far the battery life seems quite good. I don’t move my computer often and use a dock so it would be nice to be able to just leave it plugged in without worrying about battery, but doing that requires both sides to each have a cable plugged into a power source.
[+] [-] dan-robertson|3 years ago|reply
I think the logic here is subtly wrong. I think it’s pretty likely that Apple thoroughly test their keyboards to make sure Bluetooth works well and that they have low end to end latency. I think most other keyboard makers don’t test these things, even if they claim to be fast. Though Apple also have an advantage from the small travel decreasing time between touching a key and the switch closing, which may be part of the measured latency depending on the methodology
[+] [-] ec109685|3 years ago|reply
“ During these eleven months of waiting, the customs law here in Turkey changed numerous times. Because the keyboard cost more than 150 euros, I could no longer withdraw it from customs, and I had to arrange a company specialized in importing goods from customs. After some time preparing notarized documents and paying almost %50 of the base price I paid for the Advantage2 360 Pro”
I can understand somewhat the import duties, but why the rigamarole?
[+] [-] auslegung|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nixlim|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] philsnow|3 years ago|reply
The bizarre separation of the arrow keys into left-right and up-down on two different hands was the very first thing I fixed. Now the bottom four keys on my right keywell are left, down, up, right (and I moved the square brackets to the left hand where the left/right were).
(This isn't really ideal because now [] requires a lot of finger travel to type compared to how often I type them. I was excited for the 360 supporting ZMK but I've sworn off bluetooth where it can be avoided, so I'm probably going to just keep my plain-old Advantage until it dies and see if they're "fixed" the 360 line.)
[+] [-] gtsteve|3 years ago|reply
I have sworn by Logitech wireless accessories for years because of their integrated wireless which presents to the OS as a regular USB device driver, so I can use the accessories in BIOS, during OS installations, etc without any hassle.
I also like the Logitech USB dongles because I find the Windows Bluetooth keyboard support to be very much a second class citizen, with slow performance and the keyboad noticeably lags both randomly and when the system is under load, unlike a USB device.
This got me wondering if there was some solution for this, such as having a Bluetooth keyboard communicate with another piece of hardware that replayed the inputs as USB. Or perhaps Windows has upped their game in the couple of years since I last tried a Bluetooth keyboard?
I know on Mac it just works (tm) but sadly I cannot escape Windows at work at the moment.
[+] [-] jrmg|3 years ago|reply
I did find this DIY solution while hunting for the apparently non-existent real one: https://github.com/houkanshan/arduino-bt-hid-proxy
[+] [-] azinman2|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wahnfrieden|3 years ago|reply
http://xahlee.info/kbd/glove80_keyboard.html
[+] [-] wellthisisgreat|3 years ago|reply
the lack of "]" and "\" keys is a deal-breaker for non-English layouts. The moment you have more letters in the alphabet than 26, you have to readjust your typing habit for the other language.
In the world of fully-custom DIY keyboard that's way too much to compromise on for a high-end keyboard
[+] [-] rgoulter|3 years ago|reply
It's not too outlandish considering the rest of the keyboard, compared to a standard keyboard.
It looks like the Kinesis Advantage 360 is really intended for you to use it with two hands on home row. So, compared to a common layout:
- it's symmetrical & isn't row-staggered,
- lacks the numpad/cursor keys/etc. (which would require your hand moving some distance),
- it lacks a giant spacebar, and instead offers more keys the thumb can reach.
So, many of the design decisions favour hands resting on home row, and getting rid of keys which require moving the hand some distance. -- Dropping the F-keys is in line with this.
[+] [-] ilrwbwrkhv|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] LAC-Tech|3 years ago|reply
For whatever reason, moving my hand across a large keyboard feels... fine. More comfortable than pressing multiple modifier keys.
[+] [-] jrockway|3 years ago|reply
I made a split keyboard that put the num pad in the middle since that space is normally wasted, but it wasn't very nice to use. Neither of your hands appear from your gut, which is where it would need to be to use the number pad comfortably (and that's why traditional keyboards put off to one side). I just chord to get the number pad keys now.
There are probably keyboards that put the number pad on your left. That might be the perfect match for a right-handed mouse user. (Left-handed mouse users have been happy for decades, I bet.)
[+] [-] LegitShady|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pyrolistical|3 years ago|reply
I’m all for moving the modifiers but I couldn’t deal with moving of `, =, [, ]
[+] [-] least|3 years ago|reply
I am not suggesting that you must do this, mind you. Just that you almost certainly could get used to it if you forced yourself to. The benefits of doing so may not be worthwhile, though.
[+] [-] maximilianroos|3 years ago|reply
> The Advantage2 was released in 2002
Advantage2 was released in 2016! Original Advantage was in 2002. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinesis_(keyboard)
[+] [-] VectorLock|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] farslan|3 years ago|reply