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jklm | 3 years ago
Ended up going to what I thought was my safety school and rejected/waitlisted at every reach school I applied to. I sometimes wish colleges mandated name/ethnicity-blind application reviews - not to sound ungrateful, but I’m still incredulous to this day that the best I could do was a public state school (still top 50 admittedly).
It ended up being a great experience in that it was a forcing function and made me realize most of these rules and expectations around admissions were meaningless. But I probably could have saved years in high school exploring things that mattered rather than optimizing for a college application process that didn’t ultimately end up feeling very fair.
testfoobar|3 years ago
This is the President of Stanford speaking out of both sides of his mouth:
2022-10-12: "Stanford apologizes for admissions limits on Jewish students in the 1950s and pledges action on steps to enhance Jewish life on campus". Stanford President Marc Tessier-Lavigne apologized on behalf of the university and pledged action on recommendations in a task force report confirming Stanford limited the admission of Jewish students in the 1950s.
https://news.stanford.edu/report/2022/10/12/task-force-repor...
2022-08-02: Amicus brief filed in support of Harvard and University of North Carolina “A diverse student body enriches the academic experience for all Stanford students,” said Stanford President Marc Tessier-Lavigne. “Considering race as one part of holistic review helps us foster a diverse campus community, one in which all students have the opportunity to learn from each other’s experiences and to think critically about their own views and preconceptions. It also means that Stanford graduates from all backgrounds can go on to bring their unique insights to leadership roles in the government, business, and nonprofit sectors.”
https://news.stanford.edu/report/2022/08/02/amicus-brief-fil...
Guess which race/ethnicity Stanford is limiting now?
pannSun|3 years ago
It seems Jewish life is already thriving on campus - despite being just ~2% of US population, they are 7/11% of Stanford's undergraduate/graduate students [1]. To put that into perspective, and excluding from analysis the 10% international students, they are 3.9x over-represented among non-international undergraduates, relative to their US population.
In contrast, white (including Jewish) undergraduates are only 32.6% of undergraduates, but 57.8% of US population [3]. Meaning non-Jewish whites are 25.6% of undergraduates, making them 0.49x under-represented.
So despite a Jewish person having a 7.9x greater chance of getting into Stanford than a non-Jewish white, Stanford's president is apologizing that this disparity isn't even greater.
[1] https://www.hillel.org/college-guide/list/record/stanford-un...
[2] https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/stanford-university/...
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Us_demographics
unknown|3 years ago
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unknown|3 years ago
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golemiprague|3 years ago
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qwerpy|3 years ago
My (Asian) kids are going to face the same challenges when they apply for college. When the time comes, I'm tempted to ease off the whole tiger parent thing, let them have a more well-rounded high school experience, and go to a public state school. It's what I did. Had to spend a few years clawing my way into a FAANG compared to graduates from fancier schools, but in the end it worked out.
bcrosby95|3 years ago
The main thing I want for my kids (they're still young - 7 & under) is to find things they're passionate about - things that makes them want to work hard and overcome a challenge. That could be school, sports, music, games, or whatever.
Of course, I'm just a random internet stranger, why would anyone listen to me :)
csa|3 years ago
The comments below on how to get into an elite university (like Harvard or Stanford) have a fairly high hit rate when all of the boxes are checked. This is a fairly detailed and actionable list, but I am sure I left some important parts out (esp. regarding edge cases and corner cases). Feel free to ask follow-up questions if you have any.
My comments/suggestions:
-Strong grades and strong test scores will get a student into most state schools. This is a very solid baseline goal, imho. These same grades and test scores will be table stakes at elite schools -- more will be required in order to be admitted.
- Make sure your kids are actually interested in going to an elite school and making the extra effort that entails. If they are not, then steer them towards state schools. The comments below assume that they want to go to an elite school and are willing to make the extra effort.
- Take a challenging curriculum and get As with maybe a B or two -- the goal is to be top 5% of the graduating class, ideally the top 1%. Note that Bs (more than two) can be overlooked very easily if the rest of the application is strong. Note that the grade criterion can absolutely suck if your kids go to a high school that thinks that AP/honors classes just means that the students should be assigned more busy work. The busy work will take time away for them to do something that is actually interesting (see below).
- Learn how to write well. This will serve the student well in the application, HS classes, college classes, and life in general. Note that students will probably be rated on their writing skills by their references, and they will need to rate extremely highly (e.g., top 1% ever for this teacher).
- Do solid on the SAT. Contrary to popular belief, you do not need a perfect score. That said, a strong score is table stakes. Specifics below.
- My main advice for folks is to prepare for the SAT, mainly by taking practice tests with recent old tests at the same time and a similar location that the student will be taking the real test. The SAT is a marathon, and most people perform below their potential due to fatigue. Getting used to the long slog and the pacing of taking the test helps most people a lot. They will also be able to find gaps in their test-taking skills, and these are usually fairly easy to address when not under time pressure to do so.
- Math -- I would definitely aim for a perfect score in the Math (since it is fairly basic), but a slightly less than perfect score in Math is fine. Engineering people and folks who apply to MIT tend to have perfect or one tick below perfect.
- Verbal -- Most people try to game this a month or two before the test. Big mistake. My suggestion is to read well-written newspapers like NYT, WaPo, and WSJ as well as "high brow" magazines like The New Yorker, The Atlantic, and/or National Review. They should make note of every word that they don't know, and they would do well to learn them. This is easy to do over three or four years and tougher to do over one or two months. Bonus points if you, as a parent, discusses these articles with them so that they are reading critically rather than just casually. The text structures are the same types of (edited and abbreviated) text structures that they will see on the SAT.
- More than grades and SAT scores, the student should be able to impress one or two teachers that they are in the top 1% of students that the teacher has ever seen. Why? This is a common question on the reference letter form. I strongly encourage the student to check out the reference letter forms early in their high school career to see the manner and extent to which they need to impress the people who write them references. The student can do this by showing interest in one or more areas and really going deep into the subject beyond what is in the high school material -- basically, have passion for the topic.
- Also note that there are schools and teachers who know understand how the admissions game is played. The two things that these folks do that help a lot are: 1) to round up their rating of the student (e.g., if top 1%, maybe rate them "best I've ever taught"), and 2) to give detailed examples of outstanding work the student has done. The recommendations give credence to whatever it is that the student writes in their application. Picking who writes recommendation letters is a very important decision that I think many applicants put very little thought into. Not only do these teachers/people need to know you well, but they need to be able to write a good recommendation letter as well (this is a rare talent, imho, unless you attend an elite university feeder school).
- Related to grades/subjects, I would personally encourage students who can do it to enroll in a joint hs/jc program. There will be much less busy work, and one or more of the professors will know how to write a good recommendation.
- Try to figure out one or more areas in which they can do something notable at a national or international level. There is a wide scope of what this can look like, but this is where most people have a substantial gap in their application. This area can be social/leadership (probably the "easiest"), sports, arts, or academics (probably the toughest). I buried this relatively deep in the list assuming most people won't read this far, but this is the one thing that really sets aside exceptional applicants from threshold applicants who have great grades and test scores.
- Examples of "notable" (social/leadership): Start a successful business (ideally in an interesting area), start a non-profit that does meaningful work, develop a community program that makes meaningful change (esp. in under-served communities), develop some ongoing development aid project abroad (often seen in church missions), amazing Eagle Scout service projects. Note that all of these are starting or leading a group to new levels of success. Just participating is not enough (anyone can do that).
- Examples of "notable" (athletics): Be a recruited athlete, be an athlete that is not recruited but would be competitive on the university varsity team and expresses an interest to play at the university, win a state championship, be chosen as "all state" in your state (preferably first team), be on an Olympic team or on the short list development squad, win a regional (or wider) event in an "Olympic sport" (e.g., figure skating, ice skating, diving, swimming, etc. that might not be covered in HS sports). On a personal level, I would probably encourage folks to look at less common sports that can be excelled in at a young age -- competitive shooting, obscure martial arts (Japanese sword drawing, anyone?), noodling, etc.
- Examples of "notable" (arts): Be a published author, have an exhibit in a gallery, win a national/international competition (this might be easier than it seems if you're clever), be a national/international touring artist. Note that this can be combined with social/leadership by doing something like creating a highly regarded arts competition, creating a successful touring music group, etc.
- Examples of "notable" (academics): high placement in a nationwide math contest, be selected for the international science fair (a series of competitions), win a Westinghouse competition, publish a research article (as primary or a significant contributor). Note that this is the toughest category to stand out in, imho. The people who apply to elite schools are absolutely crushing this category. "Placed 3rd in state with HS trivia team", while commendable, won't really look that impressive or unusual when compared to a Westinghouse winner.
- With regards to the "do something notable" point made above, this something should be referred to in one or more of the student's references, otherwise it looks like it is completely made up and will probably be discounted. Supporting documentation helps (e.g., awards, newspaper articles, published papers, etc.), and be sure to send in this documentation as "supporting materials". If your kid is doing something special, I hope that they reach out to the press to have their special thing covered -- local news outlets love stuff like this, and it looks great in an application.
- Note that there are weird edge cases in admissions. As an example, UPenn is a private school, but they have to accept a certain number of PA residents per year. While there are extremely strong students from PA at UPenn, there are also some students who are relatively weak (and it shows). Also at UPenn, each of the four schools has an independent applicant pool, so the Wharton pool (9% admission rate) is different than the Nursing pool (25% admission rate). Not to pick on UPenn, but I happen to know details about these two examples.
- When applying to a school, the applicant should have a good reason for going to that school. "Because it is #1" or whatever doesn't cut it. The access to resources at elite schools is amazing, and the applicant should show that they have at least considered how they might utilize some of those resources.
Der_Einzige|3 years ago
cr4nberry|3 years ago
Only got into flagship state schools that were well below my average SAT
The one thing I've learned from this (a valuable lesson): never, ever do the self identification. You'll always get fucked. Self identifying is always a mistake
User23|3 years ago
0x00000000|3 years ago
HyperSane|3 years ago
jancsika|3 years ago
I love how the GPA requires a decimal place of precision, yet musical achievement requires nothing more than listing the plural of "instrument."
readthenotes1|3 years ago
We all care about different things, I guess
Aunche|3 years ago
csa|3 years ago
The "why this college" essay can trivially be addressed by looking through the university website.
Most applicants don't even do this.
A simple formula for this essay is:
- $APPLICANT has a demonstrated interest in $TOPIC(S).
- $ELITESCHOOL has $RESOURCES about $TOPIC(S) that $APPLICANT would like to explore.
This can obviously be iterated, expanded, and refined, but that's the basic formula for knocking it out of the park on that sort of essay.
Touring colleges has little to no impact on this essay.
Ghost-written essays also come across as shallow unless the parents also pay off teachers to write recommendation letters that corroborate the BS. It happens, but it's not common.
selestify|3 years ago
barry-cotter|3 years ago
Columbia? A public school in a state that mandates acceptance of Community College graduates with good enough grades?
hindsightbias|3 years ago
googlryas|3 years ago
rayiner|3 years ago
Prop 16 failed, but that won't stop them. Asians at Meta and Alphabet look to your left and look to your right. One of you will be gone when corporate American implements the same policies as Harvard (which cuts Asian numbers in half). And who is standing in the way of that future? Republican judges.
testfoobar|3 years ago
We're no where near such draconian decisions. But if we get there, the decisions will be based entirely on the financial contribution of an employee/team/project/department to the company's bottom line. I don't believe tribal/race/group affiliation will matter.
trh0awayman|3 years ago
csa|3 years ago
Some things that may have gone wrong:
- Maybe your GPA was too low for your high school. If it put you outside of the top 10% or so of your class, then that hampers your chances substantially.
- Maybe your references did not know how to write good reference letters for elite schools. I think this limits a lot of people, since tepid reference letters from people who don’t know better can kill an application.
- Conversely, maybe you went to an elite university feeder high school. If so, maybe you didn’t compare well against other folks who did get into elite schools other than test scores.
- You applied based on academic prowess, and maybe your academic prowess was not enough for elite schools. Elite schools typically want national or international levels of success in something (especially academics, which is hyper-competitive), so maybe your state competition results combined with a relatively low GPA (for elite schools) didn’t really match up to the other 100-200 or so people at each school who got in on the back of academics.
- Maybe you didn’t have much/any significant community involvement and/or leadership experience. This may seem soft, but it makes applicants stand out, imho.
Fwiw, I don’t think your ethnicity played as much of a role as you think it did. Those killer test scores you have are basically table stakes at elite schools (i.e., you need a lot of something else to get in), but they are a meal ticket at large state schools. Many/most people think that test scores and above average grades alone should be enough for elite school admission, but this hasn’t been true for many, many decades.
For reference, “top 50 state school” is something like University of Georgia or Ohio State University, both the type of school that will not slow down someone who would have fit in at Harvard or Stanford, imho.
> But I probably could have saved years in high school exploring things that mattered rather than optimizing for a college application process that didn’t ultimately end up feeling very fair.
I guessing that you optimized incorrectly.
I’m curious about where you got your information on how to optimize for elite school admissions. Most people will say something like “have great test scores and great grades”, and they would be wrong for elite schools but very accurate for most state schools.
I don’t want to say that elite school admissions are perfect (or even good), but people who have never been able to see the processes from the inside (e.g., actual applicant pools) usually make very unreasonable criticisms of the processes.
Fwiw, every elite school tells applicants exactly what they want in their recruiting materials. It’s just that different people interpret those materials in different (usually inaccurate) ways.
All that said, I’m glad it worked out for you.
jklm|3 years ago
At the same time - if I'd gotten 300-400 points less on the SAT, I likely still would have ended up at the same school. So in that vein my gut says the test scores were close to irrelevant. Or maybe not, I guess I wouldn't know.
Separately I think it's valuable to evaluate this through another lens. It sounds like you have some experience with the admissions process, and something I've been curious about for the longest time is this: if I had been in a slightly different segment, e.g. first-generation immigrant of non-East-Asian ethnicity, how would that have affected my chances?
Is it that test scores mattered less for me in this particular case, or is it that there's generally a higher bar because of competition from peers with similar East Asian backgrounds? In both cases it feels like test scores matter less overall (even if paradoxically the bar is generally higher!).
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> For reference, “top 50 state school” is something like University of Georgia or Ohio State University, both the type of school that will not slow down someone who would have fit in at Harvard or Stanford, imho.
This was the only piece I felt differently on. There's a significant advantage to attending a top school - the alumni network and a generally stronger and more well-connected student body for starters. Going to a state school didn't necessarily prevent me from finding success later in life, but I definitely took the long way around.