A question for laptop manufacturers in general and a variation just for you:
The general question: Why do you make laptop keyboards with the up and down buttons smooshed together?
The up and down buttons are the two most used buttons on my keyboards. I cannot use a regular laptop for more than 30 seconds without becoming incredibly frustrated and I'm certain that I'm not alone.
I'm entirely convinced that half of all ThinkPad laptop sales are because they allow space for their arrow keys to not be smooshed together.
---------------
And a question for you: What would it take for Framework laptops to go the ThinkPad approach with their keyboards?
Congrats on the TB4 certification! If you're ready to talk about it, I'd love to hear more about the battery life improvements hinted at in the blog post. Battery drain when suspended is probably my #1 QOL issue with Linux on a 12th Gen framework (closely followed by the mutual exclusivity of the brightness keys and the light sensor).
Not related to this, but were there any improvements planned for a power loss during sleep on Linux (also possibly mentioning it on the product page)? A laptop losing 40% of it's battery while it's suspended isn't really nice. I know there are work-arounds but this is something I would assume would work out of the box. I've sold my Framework laptop for now, and gone back to my old cheap trusty Dell machine.
It would be nice if you guys manage to take a shot at a laptop more inspired by the Thinkpads/Latitudes rather than the Apple devices.
Anything you can share about the actual process of getting it certified, from say (I assume much earlier) 'we think this is ok' to certified?
I assume it's not self-certification (like CE) from the phrasing, so you sent some units off somewhere? Was there much back and forth with changes required, or was it purely administrative and from a technical standpoint the earlier units are just as compliant?
I didn't expect this to be something where all of the failures could be fixed in firmware. I don't know anything about the subject, I just would have thought it'd require hardware changes.
I'd love to hear an example of what such a certification test failure would look like. I have no experience with hardware, so I have no idea what kind of tests you would do.
Are there any plans to get at least some of the BIOS fixes to the 11th gen? I know it wasn’t sold as Thunderbolt compliant but the experience is pretty rough and I would appreciate anything that could offer hope to address some of the issues I’ve had.
Does it really cost you $9 to ship one of these? It is probably Amazon's fault, but it just kills me to pay that much for shipping (although I'm fine w/ paying some reasonable amount for shipping).
You may want to add information about the display to your product pages; I had to dive into the user manual to find it, It's a very important spec to omit...
Offtopic, it's amusing and really interesting to me how Framework solved the "dongle" gripe by just... integrating the dongles into the frame.
From a HW I/O perspective, they're not much different than a Macbook Pro with all its USB-C ports. But but recessing them and creating a form-factor that gives you the dongle's feature within the laptop's bounding-box, they've effectively solved the problem.
It would also benefit a lot from a dedicated external multiport USB-C Hub with recessed ports so they can be used to plug more expansion cards than the ones the laptop could allow in its own ports. That could also allow to set some standards for the development of bigger expansion cards carrying hardware that needs more space.
Purchased one to try for work (perks of being in the IT department), just arrived today. Personally interested in running FreeBSD on it, and wanted to see how possible that is and what doesn't work (see https://xyinn.org/md/freebsd/wifibox for excellent write-up). Officially I need to test Ubuntu Desktop and Windows on it, but here are my initial impressions to date:
- quality is extremely high; I expected something to suffer for the cost, but it strikes me as a nicely manufactured laptop in every respect
- initial configuration, adding in external ports, memory and nvme drive, took all of 10 minutes from laptop opening to closing again ... amazing job they've done
- every bit of the insides of the laptop is labeled, it's clear and clean and there are 2d barcodes you can scan for all components to get instant documentation
- bios is legit, modern, nicely laid out, simple to configure
- from order to delivery took a few weeks, nothing extreme. Came direct from Taiwan
- the keyboard has nice raised keys, and I'm super comfortable typing on it. Only issue for me coming from a Mac, the function and control keys are swapped on the left side, but that's easy to fix up... overall, one of the nicest keyboards I've seen on a laptop
- weight feels like a current Macbook Air, just a little larger dimensions overall
- switches to hard turn off camera and microphone on the top ... nice!
Overall I'm extremely pleased with this laptop, and I'm thinking there is zero reason I'm spending so much money with Dell (our current standard). I was thinking of using Lenovo, but screw that.. if my testing pans out, this is our new standard.
That's great, but unfortunately I still can't buy one because they still don't ship to Spain. Any ideas when? I'll need a new laptop by Christmas, so after that I'm giving up and buying something else.
Apparently HP also makes an easy to disassemble laptop these days.
Picked up a System76 for a Linux work laptop earlier this year just to have a beefier CPU compared to the Framework (this was before their CPU refresh), and it's actually been fantastic (surprisingly good compared to the last desktop Linux machine I had a decade ago). However, I love the idea of the Framework so much that I'm still trying to find any excuse to pick one up anyway. You know how important work/life balance is in the remote era, so that means I should really have one machine for work and one machine for personal use, right...?
Call me crazy, in this world of constant technological treadmills, but I'd be ecstatic if I had a laptop that I could ship-of-theseus for the next two decades or more.
If this helps ... Framework have refurb models which are extremely reasonably priced.
Personally I tried the System76 but I found the keyboard layout obnoxious. I'm not sure it was all models, but the one I picked up was unusable for me, coming from a mac. They tried to shove everything on the keyboard, like num pad, which wasn't necessary IMHO. Not sure if it was just a bad pick, or every model.
I do wish, however, they took the time they used to release a Chromebook and focused it into other product releases (Ryzen, better screen.) The Chromebook play has also left me wondering if they've lost their way on core strategy.
I'm pretty happy with the Chromebook thing even though I'll probably never buy one, as apparently passing Google's test suite for Chromebook certification led to several firmware fixes that will help power consumption during sleep for the non-Chromebook models, which is my biggest annoyance with mine.
My Framework is the first machine I've owned that seems to appreciate in personal value over time rather than leaving me longing for something shinier and newer. It's like an inverse of buyer's remorse.
Since I assume some Framework product people are in here— my framework won’t go to sleep which is an absolute dealbreaker. Dead battery every time unless I fully shut it down. Forums are no help. Advice?
I’d love to support your mission and recommend this laptop to others, but you need to get the fundamentals working!
See my comment history for other similar reports from other (former) Framework owners.
These look cool but I just don't find Intel processors appealing anymore after Apple spoiled me with M1. The idea of buying another space heater Intel machine just stops me from entertaining any other laptops right now. Am I the only one?
I agree, but it will take some time before ARM/SoC-based laptops completely overtake existing architectures. Framework might be the best upgradable/repairable laptop of its kind, but it might be in a shrinking product segment.
No, the performance/watt of these ARM64 machines is just in a whole other category from Intel or even AMD. We'd need a much more power efficient x64 machine or a switch to ARM to interest me.
I am tempted to give my 2019 MBP to my partner and switch to a Framework laptop. I'm cautiously optimistic it'll become a perfect hackintosh target (though I know the Framework folks would never go out of their way to condone that).
I'd wish you the best of luck, but at this point investing into a hackintosh setup seems a bit like booking a ticket on a sinking ship -- what with support for Intel-Macs ending in the coming years.
I definitely understand prioritizing repairability and supporting a small company doing cool things as well... but maybe not well enough to pay the same money for what feels like a much worse CPU architecture for MacOS and mobile devices at this point. shrug.
When I make Linux my daily driver once the Linux sleep issues are straightened out on the Framework laptops, I will try out running macOS in a VM with sosumi to help with the transition for anything that simply cannot be done natively on Linux. Once I reduce that envelope of non-Linux applications to just the Microsoft Office suite, I plan on switching to a VM running Windows when untethered.
Offtopic - I really love the concept of this product. I hope they provide 4k screen options and keyboard with happy-hacking keyboard layout by licensing the design from Fujitsu (with fully modifiable keymapping by open firmware.)
I had mine shipped to Germany and then forwarded to Switzerland by one of the many parcel forwarding companies.
They usually forward the shipment for about US$ 15, and keep the German VAT. They pay the Swiss VAT from those earnings.
But: there was a problem with the commercial invoice by Framework (it was missing the VAT rate iirc) and I had to pay some penalty fee to the importers.
[+] [-] nrp|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spartanatreyu|3 years ago|reply
The general question: Why do you make laptop keyboards with the up and down buttons smooshed together?
The up and down buttons are the two most used buttons on my keyboards. I cannot use a regular laptop for more than 30 seconds without becoming incredibly frustrated and I'm certain that I'm not alone.
I'm entirely convinced that half of all ThinkPad laptop sales are because they allow space for their arrow keys to not be smooshed together.
---------------
And a question for you: What would it take for Framework laptops to go the ThinkPad approach with their keyboards?
[+] [-] Rebelgecko|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] as1mov|3 years ago|reply
It would be nice if you guys manage to take a shot at a laptop more inspired by the Thinkpads/Latitudes rather than the Apple devices.
[+] [-] OJFord|3 years ago|reply
I assume it's not self-certification (like CE) from the phrasing, so you sent some units off somewhere? Was there much back and forth with changes required, or was it purely administrative and from a technical standpoint the earlier units are just as compliant?
[+] [-] gibsonf1|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] noveltyaccount|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spiffytech|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] newaccount74|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] javajosh|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Terretta|3 years ago|reply
Setting aside power, how many independent full bandwidth TB4 devices can run at once?
[+] [-] kkielhofner|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] duck|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kayson|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] newaccount2021|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] AceJohnny2|3 years ago|reply
From a HW I/O perspective, they're not much different than a Macbook Pro with all its USB-C ports. But but recessing them and creating a form-factor that gives you the dongle's feature within the laptop's bounding-box, they've effectively solved the problem.
Brilliant.
[+] [-] AceJohnny2|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kube-system|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adgjlsfhk1|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] squarefoot|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] frellus|3 years ago|reply
- quality is extremely high; I expected something to suffer for the cost, but it strikes me as a nicely manufactured laptop in every respect
- initial configuration, adding in external ports, memory and nvme drive, took all of 10 minutes from laptop opening to closing again ... amazing job they've done
- every bit of the insides of the laptop is labeled, it's clear and clean and there are 2d barcodes you can scan for all components to get instant documentation
- bios is legit, modern, nicely laid out, simple to configure
- from order to delivery took a few weeks, nothing extreme. Came direct from Taiwan
- the keyboard has nice raised keys, and I'm super comfortable typing on it. Only issue for me coming from a Mac, the function and control keys are swapped on the left side, but that's easy to fix up... overall, one of the nicest keyboards I've seen on a laptop
- weight feels like a current Macbook Air, just a little larger dimensions overall
- switches to hard turn off camera and microphone on the top ... nice!
Overall I'm extremely pleased with this laptop, and I'm thinking there is zero reason I'm spending so much money with Dell (our current standard). I was thinking of using Lenovo, but screw that.. if my testing pans out, this is our new standard.
[+] [-] vatral|3 years ago|reply
Apparently HP also makes an easy to disassemble laptop these days.
[+] [-] kibwen|3 years ago|reply
Call me crazy, in this world of constant technological treadmills, but I'd be ecstatic if I had a laptop that I could ship-of-theseus for the next two decades or more.
[+] [-] frellus|3 years ago|reply
Personally I tried the System76 but I found the keyboard layout obnoxious. I'm not sure it was all models, but the one I picked up was unusable for me, coming from a mac. They tried to shove everything on the keyboard, like num pad, which wasn't necessary IMHO. Not sure if it was just a bad pick, or every model.
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] chimerasaurus|3 years ago|reply
I do wish, however, they took the time they used to release a Chromebook and focused it into other product releases (Ryzen, better screen.) The Chromebook play has also left me wondering if they've lost their way on core strategy.
[+] [-] gaganyaan|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yellowapple|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brendanmc6|3 years ago|reply
I’d love to support your mission and recommend this laptop to others, but you need to get the fundamentals working!
See my comment history for other similar reports from other (former) Framework owners.
[+] [-] theshrike79|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Hackbraten|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] artursapek|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jerlam|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] api|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sschueller|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jamesfmilne|3 years ago|reply
There's a lot of supporting circuitry, and quite a lot of power to dissipate.
[+] [-] herpderperator|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ndneighbor|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] djbebs|3 years ago|reply
Btw does anyone know of any good replacement for powerbi on Linux?
I would like to move fully to Linux on this laptop, but a project I've been tinkering on is heavily dependent on powerbi, which is windows only AFAIK.
Ideally something free, open source and fully local (no web applications) would be great.
[+] [-] shmerl|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mmastrac|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RistrettoMike|3 years ago|reply
I definitely understand prioritizing repairability and supporting a small company doing cool things as well... but maybe not well enough to pay the same money for what feels like a much worse CPU architecture for MacOS and mobile devices at this point. shrug.
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] yourapostasy|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yrgulation|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] botplaysdice|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nopenopenopeno|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sschueller|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Lukas_Skywalker|3 years ago|reply
They usually forward the shipment for about US$ 15, and keep the German VAT. They pay the Swiss VAT from those earnings.
But: there was a problem with the commercial invoice by Framework (it was missing the VAT rate iirc) and I had to pay some penalty fee to the importers.
[+] [-] pcdoodle|3 years ago|reply