[thetli8]

not to make this political but this is more political than not. people vocally want certain things (eg. prevailing wages) more than they want efficient costs so there's little incentive to make things cheaper.

a good case is always california's railway vs. florida's brightline. the differences are stark:

- $1B per mile vs. <$20M per mile [1]

- prevailing wages vs. market wages

- politics and nimby-ism vs. privatized project

- delayed to maybe 2030 vs. opening 2023

[1] https://fee.org/articles/florida-company-shows-california-ho...

[mushbino]

Labor costs are between 20-40% of the cost of construction. The Florida brightline project uses existing rail. The california project is all new rail and requires the purchase of land. It's also worth noting that private sector contractors in CA know how to game the bidding process and often politicians or their families have stock or personal relations with the contractors.

[thetli8]

you're right that labor is only a part of it. but part of the reason why the CA project saw huge rises in costs is because of project planning and scope increases in the planning -- both of which are politically driven.

part of the politically driven issues stem from NIMBY-ism but the other (arguably more heinous) part is how the cities can force the plan to be re-routed [1]. not only do costs rise and opening dates delay, the hypothetical "high speed" nature no longer rings true.

[1] https://youtu.be/S0dSm_ClcSw?t=129

[themitigating]

"It's also worth noting that private sector contractors in CA know how to game the bidding process and often politicians or their families have stock or personal relations with the contractors."

This is something that only occurs in California?

FLORIDA CONTRACTS GO TO COMPANIES THAT FLOODED RON DESANTIS CAMPAIGN FUND

https://theintercept.com/2022/09/27/florida-ron-desantis-cam...

[bombcar]

The California project didn't have to be sold the way it was - but that was the whole point, get the boondoggle started.

They could have spend a fraction of the money on improving the capital corridor and the Santa Barbara - San Diego corridor instead, but that wasn't sexy enough.

[artificial]

The French company SNCF that originally was helping California with the high speed rail left in 2011 because the state wasn't listening to it's recommendations. They build a high speed rail in Morocco which took 7 years to complete and launched in 2018. They left saying that California is politically dysfunctional. https://www.yahoo.com/news/company-hoping-help-california-hi...

[masklinn]

I expect the Moroccan project was a bit easier with respect to right if way tho.

Then again the LGV Est took a similar time per distance (took 12% longer but covers 25% more distance).

Then then again, the LGV est was largely in the “empty diagonal”…

[blamazon]

Although I'm a fan, Brightline also leveraged a bunch of existing rail, whereas the California project is almost entirely new right of way. That makes it hard to compare the projects apples to apples in my eyes. It seems intuitive that building a new rail line from scratch is going to cost more and take longer than building off an existing rail line.

I believe this is also the core of why Brightline has so many level crossings, and thus accident casualties as Floridians become accustomed to at-grade high speed trains. California high speed rail probably won't ever have to reckon with that grim issue, as it's been engineered out.

[Grimburger]

> people vocally want certain things (eg. prevailing wages) more than they want efficient costs so there's little incentive to make things cheaper

If you look the database they linked you'll see that there's no correlation at all with GDP/capita and $/km of rail line built. Some of the most efficient on costs are countries like Finland, Korea, Spain, Switzerland, It's clearly not all about the wages.

https://transitcosts.com/new-data/

[UniverseHacker]

Brightline is basically a conventional (slow) train, whereas the CA project goes 2-3x as fast... totally different design constraints. Amtrak in California is already as fast as the Brightline.

[willyt]

Paris-Bordeaux was €15m per mile for electrified 200mph capable line. $20m / mile doesn't sound amazing for a non electrified line that operates at 79mph now and might have sections that operate at 125mph in the future.

[bombcar]

Brightline goes exceptionally faster than the CA line, right now.

[pj_mukh]

Other than government interference in the route planning, all private projects seem to be susceptible to all the same issues as government projects in North America. Like, NIMBY-ism affects private projects too (see: all home construction).

Sidenote: California HSR is slated to travel at about twice the speed as Brightline, I'm guessing that has some non-linear ramifications on cost.

[atoav]

Without even looking into it I am going to say huge price differences between different rail projects are something I really would expect to see. Building, planning and permitting a meter of track in a dense urban center is going to cost magnitudes more than building the same track with the same people through a more rural route even if it was done by the same people in the same system and state.

That aside the trains might run through different terrain and might have to run at different speeds. Building a dirt path through a flat desert is surely more cheap per meter than building a tunnel through a mountain.

So to compare such projects to each other in way that you can draw meaningful insights from the comparison means you have to ganular data science and compare how much of each track is going through which type of environment.

I am not saying your point is not valid, but just comparing the final numbers is not going to cut it here.

[thescriptkiddie]

This certainly is a political issue, but privatization isn't the solution, it is the problem. US governments at all levels are so ideologically opposed to the idea of doing anything in-house that they overpay for consultants and contractors to do even the most basic things.

[sleepymoose]

> $1B per mile vs. <$20M per mile

Once again, California inflating the national average to insane proportions.

I understand that the issue you're speaking to is farther reaching than just California, but I think we can all agree that it's one of, if not the absolute worst offender.

[bluGill]

NYC second avenue subway is worse by far. CA almost looks reasonable

[foota]

That rail line is half the speed and built in one of the flattest parts of the country?

[pkaye]

Is the Brightline also high speed rail?

[pencilguin]

It is not about legitimate costs. It is about legalized corruption. Projects are super-expensive because the overwhelming majority of money spent goes to line pockets instead of building.

The US's innovation has been to make corruption wholly legal, proof against indictment