In Which magazine, EVs were about as reliable as normal cars, however if you removed tesla from the ratings, then EV reliability jumped significantly to way above standard petrol/diesel.
https://www.which.co.uk/ has the details, but you need to be a member to find out. Basically the fit, finish and reliability of the accessories were trash.
Teslas the majority? I always assume Tesla was a more luxury brand of EVs.
Is there any ranking of amount of EVs by brand sold to date?
AFAIR Nissan Leaf was selling quite well some time in Europe. And in 2022 I see BYD sold more vehicles than Tesla, but I can't find data for all the EVs sold in the past.
Is it not just the case that there simply hasn't been enough time to work out the kinks?
The Tesla Model S is only ten years old. So my 20 year old bulletproof Japanese petrol car is twice the age of the entire class of modern day EVs.
My petrol car could probably have done the first ten years of its' life with oil changes and nothing else at all. I mean, it's done the last few years that way. But there's been a century of serious engineering work to get it to that place.
And yeah, having owned a Tesla, the earlier models at least were designed to be fun luxury toys. Even something like the windows - frameless, auto-retracting things that can freeze in winter, vs a mechanical wind down thing on a Civic or whatever.
The EV drive trains are simpler, but they've come along with some silly bits like having to electronically open the glove box from the infotainment screen. Is that mechanism going to last 20 years? How about the pop-out door handles? I'm not optimistic.
I'm sure the police are going to love that one. "License and registration?" "Sorry officer, they're in the glove compartment and when I tap the button it just makes an angry grinding noise."
It's interesting that Tesla, one of the newest automakers, has far more issues than the EVs made by the established players. So it may be less that the Model S is only 10 years old and more that Tesla itself is relativley young and inexperienced.
For issues with drivetrain etc -- absolutely. But it seems that a lot of the problems center around fit and finish of the body of the vehicle, trim, accessories etc -- stuff the industry has decades of experience with. It really sounds like quality was sacrificed for efficiency there.
> Is it not just the case that there simply hasn't been enough time to work out the kinks?
Obviously. Any such report (accurate or otherwise) would show you a snapshot of how things are right now. It won't tell you why or predict how the reliability might change.
It makes perfect sense that Tesla would still need to iron out issues related to build quality (unlike automakers who have been working on those for decades), and that other automakers would have to iron out issues related to the electric drive train (less experience in that front).
Obviously anecdata but I've had an EV (Jaguar I-Pace) for a year and a bit now and it is by far the best and most reliable vehicle I have ever owned.
I've driven over 8000 miles in it and have not had a single issue. Contrast it to my new diesel Mercedes, which I think I had to service 4 times over the first year I owned it. It just makes sense that they'd be far more reliable - there are far fewer moving parts that can break.
If you don't need the >300 mile range regularly then an EV is by far the best choice. They're also cheaper over the lifetime of the vehicle.
If you exclude Teslas and plug in hybrids then most EVs are incredibly reliable. Yes, power electronics wear out and break on occasion but that’s nothing in comparison to the complexity of an internal combustion vehicle. And car manufacturers only have a few years experience mass producing EVs. Once they gain experience there will be no competition from fossil fuel cars. The future is not internal combustion.
Yet, the original article specifically refers to the fact that hybrids seem to be more reliable on average than EVs currently. Might have something to do with the fact that the big Japanese powerhouses (Toyota, Honda and Mazda) haven't really spent any time developing high-power EV powertrains yet. But the atkinson-cycle and (relatively) small battery and elmotor combo has been around for 20 years and it's well honed in now.
The only reason Tesla drivetrains are reliable is because they've basically spent 10 years on developing not much else besides the drivetrain.
>that’s nothing in comparison to the complexity of an internal combustion vehicle.
Some days I dream of leaving the complexity and sheer scale of the software world and going to something simpler and more relatable, like mechanics.
>Once they gain experience there will be no competition from fossil fuel cars.
This is so bogus. The only reason that most people will end up driving EVs will be because of govenment mandates. Most people were happy with ICE cars (and mostly are, even now).
Maintenance is planned. Reliability issues are unplanned failures.
An EV may have brakes that last longer and no oil changes, but some EV manufacturers are adding gimmicky and buggy electronics, or poorly designed body hardware that fails.
I've had a few minor unplanned maintenance issues on a Tesla. Maybe slightly more than my gas cars now that I think about it, but not often enough that I'm thinking about it. Each one was handled at my house so it never really struck me as a significant inconvenience. In one case, they were the ones who showed up to replace a battery before I even knew there was an issue.
Overall, planned maintenance is significantly less on my Tesla than on my gas cars. It's a pretty easy car to own and drive. As others have pointed out, build quality isn't the greatest - at least not commensurate with the price. Now that other options are available, I think it's pretty hard to recommend Tesla, but I wouldn't call it a bad car. It's better than most out there despite its flaws.
Without a doubt, EV is better than gas in most situations. They are just easier, drive better, lower cost to operate, etc. I'm not buying what this article is selling.
That makes sense, but I can't imagine that brake wear in particular moves the needle very much. I typically just change the brake pads every 60,000 miles or so and that's like a $50 expense if you buy the nice pads and new hardware set for my car. Of course, I don't drive some exotic car with carbon ceramic stuff that costs $8K to replace (my car seems to stop well enough regardless).
A quick google search shows that average age of a car in USA is ~12 years... oldtimers and crashed newish cars skew that number away from the median, but generally batteries will lose capacity way sooner than that, and replacement is currently either very expensive or even impossible in some models.
This has been very contrary to my experience. We have had a fully EV Kia for almost a year now, and it is the most low-drama new car that we have owned by far. Literally zero issues with it (unless you count the slow leak in a tire from a nail). 10 years ago we had a Subaru that came with so many factory defects, we swore off Subaru forever. We have had many VWs, none of which ever broke down. They took a ton of maintenance compared to our EV, though.
We were able to install a level 2 charger in our garage, and this had made the car completely worry free. Also, the experience of driving an EV is so much better than driving a gas powered car. I can't stress enough how much of an upgrade going full EV has been for us.
I guess you need to be careful which specific model you buy, and we avoided Tesla because I felt that I had enough buggy software to deal with in my life, but I would guess that the most reliable EVs are much more reliable than the most reliable legacy gas engine cars. After having our EV, Ithink that they are simply just better, and a complete take over in the industry is inevitable.
> We have had a fully EV Kia for almost a year now, and it is the most low-drama new car that we have owned by far.
"Almost a year" is hardly enough time to see what the long term reliability will be! Need to track realiability over 20-30 years to see how these models turn out.
> "Consumer Reports surveyed owners of more than 300,000 vehicles from model years 2000 to 2022 and used that data to make predictions about the reliability of 2023 model year vehicles."
It'd be useful to see the spread over time, as EV's produced over a decade ago are probably not as reliable as EVs being produced today. As far as Tesla:
> "Fisher said Tesla is a "standout" regarding electric powertrains compared with legacy automakers. However, Tesla owners continue to report problems with body hardware, paint and trim in their vehicles across all models, according to Steve Elek, program leader for auto data analytics at Consumer Reports."
My favorite EVs are all modified ICE cars where the internal combustion system has been pulled out and replaced with a Tesla powertrain.
I don't understand why automakers aren't taking traditional small ICE vehicles and throwing the electric components in it. Besides having to spread the weight of batteries out a bit, is it really much harder (I'm not an engineer by any means)?
I'd love to see an EV version of the boring Corollas; Civics; Fits; Imprezas; or Yaris out there, instead of them doing... whatever it is they're doing (mostly redesigning everything bigger and, in my opinion, uglier). I think to me, and to a lot of people, a car is just a car to get them from A to B, and don't want it to set them back $30-$40k.
Except for a few Chevy Bolts and Nissan Leafs out there, the vehicles on the road seem to be Teslas and larger, fancier makes from traditional ICE manufacturers.
I drive a Ford Focus Electric. All of the non-drivetrain parts are standard focus stuff, and are fine. The same mostly-physical-controls UI that non-electric focus has. The usual wear parts wear out just like an ICE car, but the brakes need done a little less often.
And the car is responsive and fun to drive.
The new parts of the design have some rough edges; hopefully these are solved with the newer generation of EVs intended for mass production and making a profit:
- Just like a Tesla, there is a traditional 12V battery that runs accessories when the car is off. This can be drained by rogue modules not shutting down properly. See https://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4302 . I've had this happen several times. It's really annoying to need jump start when the main battery is at 100%.
- This year after 5 years and 50K miles something went wrong with the main battery. Replaced under warranty and apparently uncommon.
Mechanical complexity is just one type of the overall complexity of a car. There are plenty examples of even ICE vehicles having poor electrical reliability. Now we have lots of software added into the mix. And EVs are pretty new technology too. Cars where at first less reliable than horse and buggy.
Never bought the "moving parts" marketing. But I don't see how it could have gone different either. And early addopters taking a hit does speed progress a lot. So I guess overall there is no news or info here, things are as they could only be.
My issue with CR for a long time is that I don’t trust their weighting. I’m much more worried about major drivetrain issues than flaky accessories in general, and it’s always seemed like they don’t distinguish between these categories the way I would. Their detailed breakdown is more useful but doesn’t impact these kinds of broad lists.
I know that the Twitterpolaypse is a separate discussion, but I think it directly impacts Tesla EV's as well.
If Tesla goes bankrupt, your cars will *NOT* work, given how tightly they are integrated with servers at Tesla.
When Musk was forced to buy Twitter, he used significant leverage from SpaceX and Tesla to do so. And from his actions as of recent, he's opening significant legal liability to him and the company, and appearing that he's operating a scorched earth model to "punish" that fact he was forced to buy Twitter.
If the Twitter situation does come to a head vs Eli Lilly and all the other companies that substantially lost billions in blue-checkmark manipulation and the FTC consent decree - I can see an eventuality that Tesla is also substantially harmed.. Leading to vehicles that no longer work.
Your definition of "forced" is comical, if not delusional.
> If Tesla goes bankrupt, your cars will NOT work, given how tightly they are integrated with servers at Tesla.
My Model 3 works just fine whether it can reach Tesla's servers or not. I've driven to places with zero connectivity to anything, charged fully, and continued driving without issue for over 100 miles before having service again. The worst thing that happened is an empty navigation screen.
I own an EV since too little BUT I've already have:
- failed to start once, "High Voltage battery disconnected" error. Detached the 12V battery, reattached it, works again. As ALL modern crapware no logs, no clue of whats going on are available to the formal but not substantial owner...
- still wait for the vendor to DISCONNECT some of it's workers phones so I can bound MY car to MY phone, to surveil charge, activate AC/heating from remote etc instead of someone else I do not know. Of course since all works through the OEM server the OEM can do anything on "my" EV...
I'm very satisfied in terms of driving comfort, very dissatisfied in terms of range, even if it's sufficient in general terms, BUT I call for a collective action: we MUST IMPOSE all OEM to use ONLY FLOSS software AND ONLY personal/authority access to vehicles. It's damn crazy to allow private entity controls of fleets of private vehicles behind their formal owner.
It's not just a risk for the owner h{im,er}self BUT also for a country who can potentially suffer traffic paralysis or multiple accidents on it's territory caused by a single private entity who in reality own all vehicles it have sold formally.
No blackboxes MUST be allowed on sale. Those who try to sell them must be sanctioned so badly no one would even try doing so again.
There must be a better way to report these numbers. If Tesla picks a shoddy trunk latch supplier that may reflect poorly on Tesla as a brand, but it tells us nothing about the reliability of EVs. I would be more interested in seeing the reliability of components that are critical to the propulsion of the car.
> And they found that for Tesla in particular, issues with body hardware, steering suspension, paint and trim, and climate systems on the models were of most concern. Rick and I tested the Model 3 a few years back and we found a lot of issues with fit and finish and parts on the inside of the car
I wish they'd separate cosmetic issues from functional ones. IMO it's pointless to lump "paint is uneven" in with "steering doesn't work." Maybe they do in the actual report but it's paywalled.
Anecdotally I've seen quite a few minor cosmetic non-driving-related issues with Teslas but overall they've been very reliable (not requiring any motor, brake steering, or suspension maintenance) for everyone I know who owns one.
It might match what others are asking, "what is reliable to the automaker/customer" but they talk about reliability and then start talking about flaking paint and trim that doesn't stick properly? Not really my definition of reliable which would be "it drives in an expected way".
Quality is something else and since lots of EVs are currently high-price items, it doesn't surprise me that shortcuts are made to make everything as cheap as possible so that's fine.
Then on my diesel Skoda, which has had 100 years to perfect, the auto-stop system frequently doesn't start the engine again. Anecdata maybe but my boss has had no problems with his Tesla Model X.
They neglected to mention the biggest problem of all. EVs in Florida randomly catching fire after a hurricane. It turns out salt water is not so good around EVs.
"Fires are not just a concern in the presence of floods. Batteries can overheat, and crashes may damage the batteries, causing fires."
Salt is also pervasive on roads that get a lot of snow and ice. UPS is about to implement EV trucks here and I talk to the drivers all the time so I guess time will tell how that works out. AFAIK none of the locals own an EV but they do pass through here on their way to Yellowstone.
I seriously question their methodology. I still daily drive a 2012 leaf, which has never been to a shop in its existence. 2 years on the Tesla and likewise zero issues.
Tesla is(was?) the mover and shaker, basically forced the big makers to adopt and ramp up EV production and engineering operations. As many others here note, the decades of designing ICE vehicles (inhouse or sourcing/sharing designs/materials), and multiple generations of vehicles of various types is all adding up to inform their final product design in ways no engineering team (however highly paid or talented) can compete with. The grocery-getting person in Ohio is not going to think twice when it's an 60k for a buggy used Tesla when Hyundai puts out something for 30 that works and lasts twice as long.
[+] [-] KaiserPro|3 years ago|reply
https://www.which.co.uk/ has the details, but you need to be a member to find out. Basically the fit, finish and reliability of the accessories were trash.
[+] [-] mgadams3|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] socialismisok|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] krzyk|3 years ago|reply
Is there any ranking of amount of EVs by brand sold to date?
AFAIR Nissan Leaf was selling quite well some time in Europe. And in 2022 I see BYD sold more vehicles than Tesla, but I can't find data for all the EVs sold in the past.
[+] [-] throwaway22032|3 years ago|reply
The Tesla Model S is only ten years old. So my 20 year old bulletproof Japanese petrol car is twice the age of the entire class of modern day EVs.
My petrol car could probably have done the first ten years of its' life with oil changes and nothing else at all. I mean, it's done the last few years that way. But there's been a century of serious engineering work to get it to that place.
And yeah, having owned a Tesla, the earlier models at least were designed to be fun luxury toys. Even something like the windows - frameless, auto-retracting things that can freeze in winter, vs a mechanical wind down thing on a Civic or whatever.
[+] [-] wlesieutre|3 years ago|reply
I'm sure the police are going to love that one. "License and registration?" "Sorry officer, they're in the glove compartment and when I tap the button it just makes an angry grinding noise."
[+] [-] standardUser|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] btbuildem|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] laserbeam|3 years ago|reply
Obviously. Any such report (accurate or otherwise) would show you a snapshot of how things are right now. It won't tell you why or predict how the reliability might change.
It makes perfect sense that Tesla would still need to iron out issues related to build quality (unlike automakers who have been working on those for decades), and that other automakers would have to iron out issues related to the electric drive train (less experience in that front).
[+] [-] eckesicle|3 years ago|reply
I've driven over 8000 miles in it and have not had a single issue. Contrast it to my new diesel Mercedes, which I think I had to service 4 times over the first year I owned it. It just makes sense that they'd be far more reliable - there are far fewer moving parts that can break.
If you don't need the >300 mile range regularly then an EV is by far the best choice. They're also cheaper over the lifetime of the vehicle.
[+] [-] abraxas|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eptcyka|3 years ago|reply
The only reason Tesla drivetrains are reliable is because they've basically spent 10 years on developing not much else besides the drivetrain.
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] 543ge4q3|3 years ago|reply
Some days I dream of leaving the complexity and sheer scale of the software world and going to something simpler and more relatable, like mechanics.
>Once they gain experience there will be no competition from fossil fuel cars.
This is so bogus. The only reason that most people will end up driving EVs will be because of govenment mandates. Most people were happy with ICE cars (and mostly are, even now).
[+] [-] rrwo|3 years ago|reply
> All-electric vehicles typically require less maintenance than conventional vehicles because:
> The battery, motor, and associated electronics require little to no regular maintenance
> - There are fewer fluids, such as engine oil, that require regular maintenance
> - Brake wear is significantly reduced due to regenerative braking
> - There are far fewer moving parts relative to a conventional fuel engine.
[+] [-] kube-system|3 years ago|reply
Maintenance is planned. Reliability issues are unplanned failures.
An EV may have brakes that last longer and no oil changes, but some EV manufacturers are adding gimmicky and buggy electronics, or poorly designed body hardware that fails.
[+] [-] HDThoreaun|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jm4|3 years ago|reply
Overall, planned maintenance is significantly less on my Tesla than on my gas cars. It's a pretty easy car to own and drive. As others have pointed out, build quality isn't the greatest - at least not commensurate with the price. Now that other options are available, I think it's pretty hard to recommend Tesla, but I wouldn't call it a bad car. It's better than most out there despite its flaws.
Without a doubt, EV is better than gas in most situations. They are just easier, drive better, lower cost to operate, etc. I'm not buying what this article is selling.
[+] [-] hotpotamus|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ajsnigrutin|3 years ago|reply
A quick google search shows that average age of a car in USA is ~12 years... oldtimers and crashed newish cars skew that number away from the median, but generally batteries will lose capacity way sooner than that, and replacement is currently either very expensive or even impossible in some models.
[+] [-] rickspencer3|3 years ago|reply
We were able to install a level 2 charger in our garage, and this had made the car completely worry free. Also, the experience of driving an EV is so much better than driving a gas powered car. I can't stress enough how much of an upgrade going full EV has been for us.
I guess you need to be careful which specific model you buy, and we avoided Tesla because I felt that I had enough buggy software to deal with in my life, but I would guess that the most reliable EVs are much more reliable than the most reliable legacy gas engine cars. After having our EV, Ithink that they are simply just better, and a complete take over in the industry is inevitable.
[+] [-] jjav|3 years ago|reply
"Almost a year" is hardly enough time to see what the long term reliability will be! Need to track realiability over 20-30 years to see how these models turn out.
[+] [-] photochemsyn|3 years ago|reply
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/15/consumer-reports-new-technol...
> "Consumer Reports surveyed owners of more than 300,000 vehicles from model years 2000 to 2022 and used that data to make predictions about the reliability of 2023 model year vehicles."
It'd be useful to see the spread over time, as EV's produced over a decade ago are probably not as reliable as EVs being produced today. As far as Tesla:
> "Fisher said Tesla is a "standout" regarding electric powertrains compared with legacy automakers. However, Tesla owners continue to report problems with body hardware, paint and trim in their vehicles across all models, according to Steve Elek, program leader for auto data analytics at Consumer Reports."
My favorite EVs are all modified ICE cars where the internal combustion system has been pulled out and replaced with a Tesla powertrain.
[+] [-] quantumfissure|3 years ago|reply
I'd love to see an EV version of the boring Corollas; Civics; Fits; Imprezas; or Yaris out there, instead of them doing... whatever it is they're doing (mostly redesigning everything bigger and, in my opinion, uglier). I think to me, and to a lot of people, a car is just a car to get them from A to B, and don't want it to set them back $30-$40k.
Except for a few Chevy Bolts and Nissan Leafs out there, the vehicles on the road seem to be Teslas and larger, fancier makes from traditional ICE manufacturers.
[+] [-] gdickie|3 years ago|reply
And the car is responsive and fun to drive.
The new parts of the design have some rough edges; hopefully these are solved with the newer generation of EVs intended for mass production and making a profit:
- Just like a Tesla, there is a traditional 12V battery that runs accessories when the car is off. This can be drained by rogue modules not shutting down properly. See https://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4302 . I've had this happen several times. It's really annoying to need jump start when the main battery is at 100%.
- This year after 5 years and 50K miles something went wrong with the main battery. Replaced under warranty and apparently uncommon.
[+] [-] trabant00|3 years ago|reply
Never bought the "moving parts" marketing. But I don't see how it could have gone different either. And early addopters taking a hit does speed progress a lot. So I guess overall there is no news or info here, things are as they could only be.
[+] [-] kemiller|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] noasaservice|3 years ago|reply
If Tesla goes bankrupt, your cars will *NOT* work, given how tightly they are integrated with servers at Tesla.
When Musk was forced to buy Twitter, he used significant leverage from SpaceX and Tesla to do so. And from his actions as of recent, he's opening significant legal liability to him and the company, and appearing that he's operating a scorched earth model to "punish" that fact he was forced to buy Twitter.
If the Twitter situation does come to a head vs Eli Lilly and all the other companies that substantially lost billions in blue-checkmark manipulation and the FTC consent decree - I can see an eventuality that Tesla is also substantially harmed.. Leading to vehicles that no longer work.
[+] [-] buffington|3 years ago|reply
Your definition of "forced" is comical, if not delusional.
> If Tesla goes bankrupt, your cars will NOT work, given how tightly they are integrated with servers at Tesla.
My Model 3 works just fine whether it can reach Tesla's servers or not. I've driven to places with zero connectivity to anything, charged fully, and continued driving without issue for over 100 miles before having service again. The worst thing that happened is an empty navigation screen.
[+] [-] frumper|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kkfx|3 years ago|reply
- failed to start once, "High Voltage battery disconnected" error. Detached the 12V battery, reattached it, works again. As ALL modern crapware no logs, no clue of whats going on are available to the formal but not substantial owner...
- still wait for the vendor to DISCONNECT some of it's workers phones so I can bound MY car to MY phone, to surveil charge, activate AC/heating from remote etc instead of someone else I do not know. Of course since all works through the OEM server the OEM can do anything on "my" EV...
I'm very satisfied in terms of driving comfort, very dissatisfied in terms of range, even if it's sufficient in general terms, BUT I call for a collective action: we MUST IMPOSE all OEM to use ONLY FLOSS software AND ONLY personal/authority access to vehicles. It's damn crazy to allow private entity controls of fleets of private vehicles behind their formal owner.
It's not just a risk for the owner h{im,er}self BUT also for a country who can potentially suffer traffic paralysis or multiple accidents on it's territory caused by a single private entity who in reality own all vehicles it have sold formally.
No blackboxes MUST be allowed on sale. Those who try to sell them must be sanctioned so badly no one would even try doing so again.
[+] [-] megaman821|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] njovin|3 years ago|reply
I wish they'd separate cosmetic issues from functional ones. IMO it's pointless to lump "paint is uneven" in with "steering doesn't work." Maybe they do in the actual report but it's paywalled.
Anecdotally I've seen quite a few minor cosmetic non-driving-related issues with Teslas but overall they've been very reliable (not requiring any motor, brake steering, or suspension maintenance) for everyone I know who owns one.
[+] [-] lbriner|3 years ago|reply
Quality is something else and since lots of EVs are currently high-price items, it doesn't surprise me that shortcuts are made to make everything as cheap as possible so that's fine.
Then on my diesel Skoda, which has had 100 years to perfect, the auto-stop system frequently doesn't start the engine again. Anecdata maybe but my boss has had no problems with his Tesla Model X.
[+] [-] starkd|3 years ago|reply
"Fires are not just a concern in the presence of floods. Batteries can overheat, and crashes may damage the batteries, causing fires."
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/electric-vehicle-battery-fi...
[+] [-] LinuxBender|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _ea1k|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] elif|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rnouse|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
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