I am a South African. We have lived through some of the most draconian Orwellian autocratic measures in the world. Furthermore, our journey to democracy has not been smooth - the last 10 years were marred by massive corruption.
Through all of this, our constitutional rights to freedom of expression, and freedom of press, has stayed sound. We have had multiple instances where journalists reported on some nefarious action and were intimidated or even legally threatened by authorities. However, our courts have, for the most part, sided with our freedom of expression and press rights. The South African government has had quite a couple of punches on the nose in our courts ;-).
I have read most of the comments in this thread. I think I understand most of the viewpoints, and I always try and have an open mind. I am also not an American citizen. However, like every Earth citizen I have a keen interest (possibly forced...) on USA issues. "If America sneeze the world catches a cold".
This is clearly a very contentious topic, and I will reply with some specific thoughts on specific comments. I just wanted to give the perspective of a citizen in a country where this is a serious history of government abuse. We cannot take these things likely. Now that I think about it, I think the Germans feel the same way (living through the Gestapo and Stasi years could not have been fun....).
One of my more memorable encounters in my taxi was with an older fellow who was moving cars to sell at auction (in Scottsdale, Arizona).
"How'd you find your way to the desert?" Phoenix was half-way between the labs in Los Angeles, the labs in New Mexico, and the testing sites in Nevada.
For a young single man, life on the secret bases in Nevada was pretty sweet. All the meals were the same price (steak, lobster, etc), ammunition was cheap, etc. The married guys didn't like it so much, but he was not married at the time.
Ooohhhh... Interesting. There are rumors on the internet about the federal government having extensive underground infrastructure in the western United States. This made sense to me: if you want to hide something, you put it underground. So I asked my passenger about this.
"Oh yeah, but there's way more stuff underground at Area 12 [0], than at Area 51."
I'm partial to the idea that nothing important happens at Area 51 anymore, just your average everyday testing of the latest thermodynamics-compliant military hardware. All the interesting R&D is now done somewhere else.
Ingo Swann [1] said in his Art Bell interview (iirc), w.r.t. his self-published book [2], that the secret program he was involved with, which he couldn't prove, never even got to the point where it needed to be 'classified'.
I mean all eyes have been on Area 51 for decades now, it makes sense they would move more sensitive stuff elsewhere. I never heard of Area 12 or any other "area" so those are still obscure enough for the mainstream.
I always thought one of the more interestingly codenamed nuclear tests was Mission Cyber, the weapon effect portion of Operation Touchstone which was conducted at the Rainier Mesa test site. From what I can tell it was an investigation into the effects of an underground nuclear blast on various nearby electronic and fiber optic systems. But they couldn't have picked better names to fuel conspiracy theorists.
I'm not convinced there isn't something more than drone flights adjacent to secret facilities. In the below link a private pilot describes:
The first time I ventured into the Nellis Ranges was on a flight from Tonopah to Rachel via R4807A where I went down to the edge of that side of 4808A [also known as "The Box"] and got some good views of Groom [Area 51] from the north. After departing Rachel, I was given permission to enter R4806W enroute to Henderson and proceeded to fly the perimeter of The Box and R4808N basically to Yucca Lake.
Link to website in question, which also happens mention what to me is one on the more notable aspects of Area 51 - that being some people working there are flown in and out daily from Las Vegas via private airplanes:
> My girlfriend was led out into the street barefoot and only in her underwear in full view of our neighbors; I was led outside, handcuffed and only in t-shirt and sweats in sub-freezing temperatures.
> Each home was searched by 15-20 agents in full riot gear, causing further damage in both homes besides the broken front doors
> I was very surprised how forceful the search warrant was executed and how rough we, both unarmed senior citizens, were treated.
> Even my phone was taken, leaving me in Rachel with two broken doors and no way to communicate or call for help.
I don't care what the hell he did, this kind of abuse is not acceptable. It's no wonder Americans have lost respect for law enforcement: the people enforcing the law are often committing worse crimes than the supposed criminals.
Taking his electronic shit I get. But not letting the poor woman get dressed? That's just a bunch of thugs having a playday with their toys.
> Arnu said both his homes were raided “without warning” on Nov. 3 “by 15-20 agents in full riot gear.” The agents broke open the doors while Arnu was in the Rachel home and his girlfriend at the Las Vegas one, and then they “were detained and treated in the most disrespectful way.”
I realise that flying drones over restricted airspaces is not allowed. At the same time it doesn't feel like this kind of treatment was justified. Wouldn't three or four police officers (and no riot gear) be enough?
Let me play devil's advocate here, I've known a number of law enforcement/military individuals and have asked them the same question. Here's the situation they paint to me. Imagine you have to go arrest someone, essentially using force to limit their freedom. You know virtually nothing about this person, except that they are the type of person who will break laws serious enough to get arrested. Now, do you want some protection from a gun, or no? And do you want to go there with 1 other person? Or as many as you can get.
It seems very excessive from the outside, because we have full knowledge of the situation at the outcome. When you go into these situations, you're essentially blind, so you're exposing yourself to the entire risk profile.
What where they even hoping to find? Since this was about publicly distributed video, they should have already had all the evidence they need.
Most civilized places the only thing coming through his door would've been a letter informing him about his upcoming appointment at a local police station.
My understanding is that as long as they (the security forces) have already bought that equipment then they might as well use it. It doesn’t really matter if said equipment is best suited for the task at hand or not.
You cannot just fly drones over airspace you are not allowed to, take pictures of a classified base, and expect nothing to ever happen. This isn't a free speech issue like many are making it out to be in this comment section. The pictures were forbidden from distribution in the first place, and gathered illegally.
And this doesn't have anything to do with Area 51 in particular either. If someone did this to any Air Force base, the same thing would happen. Drones are banned from all bases for obvious reasons.
A US citizen documenting aircraft seen from publicly accessible land onto an internet forum isn’t really espionage. The article didn’t mention that he was colluding with foreign government officials and most importantly he was never charged with a crime.
Thanks to civil forfeiture, he’ll likely never get his stuff back from the Government MAFIA’s attempt to terrorize him into silence.
I mean, there are super simple rules to follow. Like don't take pictures of restricted objects. Just follow them and you are golden.
If a person doesn't understand the importance of secret military bases and that all us power and influence in the world (and dollar purchase power) is like 70% resulted form their military, then I don't even know what to say.
I mean they are to a degree, it's just that the US holds the most influence in it (veto powers and such). They don't have zero accountability, they exist under the auspice of the government, Supreme Court and the President. It's just that they have approved of the things they do.
I don't know about this one, but there's been at least a couple projects mentioned on HN in the last year or so that I suspected were probably more valuable to non-US intel efforts than they were to their ostensible users.
(And one of them appeared to oops while juggling a sockpuppet account on HN to help promote -- which was a little suspicious because that tactic seemed incongruent with the goal they claimed. I suppose, with that project, the non-US intel value could've been intentional. It's much easier to imagine a lot of people being motivated to follow Area 51, just out of curiosity and the mystique, and not seeing any harm in it.)
Which prompts the thought: with all sorts of geopolitical tensions going on right now -- as much as we Internet-age techies can be global citizens who extend fellowship (through HN, open source, research communities, companies, etc.) -- maybe we should try to be aware when actions we are considering doing would stray into delicate global balances that we don't understand. We don't know enough to know everything to avoid, but maybe sometimes we can guess, so it seems worth the occasional thought.
- You see John, Area 51 was my department idea. Best security measure
we ever come up with! It's getting expensive now..
- What you mean Paul?
- Well you know...All these thousands of people we fly in every
day, the random events, its an expensive facade to maintain!
But the department demands it!.
- I see Paul. I guess it's worth it no? Anything to keep
their attention focused on it. Last thing we want is them
finding out about Areas 52 and 53!
"I am Joerg Arnu, owner and webmaster of the Dreamland Resort web site (www.DreamlandResort.com). The subject of the web site is Area 51. I have operated that web site since 1999.
Last week Thursday (11/3/22) in the early morning my homes in Rachel (just outside of Area 51) and in Las Vegas were searched by a joint force of FBI and AF OSI. This happened without any warning. The doors were broken open and I in Rachel and my girlfriend in our Las Vegas home were detained and treated in the most disrespectful way. My girlfriend was led out into the street barefoot and only in her underwear in full view of our neighbors; I was led outside, handcuffed and only in t-shirt and sweats in sub-freezing temperatures.
Each home was searched by 15-20 agents in full riot gear, causing further damage in both homes besides the broken front doors. Despite my repeated requests for an explanation, I was only told that the search was related to images posted on my Area 51 web site.
I was very surprised how forceful the search warrant was executed and how rough we, both unarmed senior citizens, were treated. I have to believe that someone gave them bad information about us. All my laptops, phones, backup drives, camera gear and my drone were seized. With the equipment I lost all my medical records, financial and tax records, passwords, email and phone contacts, photos etc. Even my phone was taken, leaving me in Rachel with two broken doors and no way to communicate or call for help.
Not counting my expected legal expenses my losses so far include over $20k in equipment taken and over $5k in damage.
There are 40 pages missing from the search warrant I received and the case records are sealed. So, I cannot look up the reason for the search and I do not want to speculate. I left several messages with the FBI agent in charge but he has not returned any of my calls. At this point I have no choice but to take legal action to try and get my equipment back and to seek reimbursement for the damage.
In an effort to defuse the situation I have removed some material from my Dreamland Resort web site although I believe that it was legally obtained and legal to publish. I am not sharing anything on my web site that cannot be found on dozens of other web sites and news outlet publications. Considering how this went down I have no intention of removing any more material unless ordered to do so by a federal judge.
I believe the search, executed with completely unnecessary force by overzealous government agents was meant as a message to silence the Area 51 research community. The question now is: How far will they go?
"
This should serve as a gentle reminder that the police, the FBI, and other law enforcement are not your friends and that you should run encryption on all of your devices.
If the USAF don't want UFO crazies trying to find out about their secret testing station, maybe they should move it to somewhere that isn't famous for UFO myths. Then they could open the gates to Area 51, perhaps charge for entry, and offer guided tours. They could even build a hotel (you can imagine the style of architecture) and a golf-course (Oops! Water shortage, so scrap that).
I am sure this were joint Air Force and FBI raids, but the optics of the phrase "U.S. Air Force and FBI recently raided homes ..." is really not that great. Maybe just me, but few want to hear of the Air Force raiding homes in America. They should really leave the domestic law enforcement to the FBI, both literary and in public perception.
Domestic law enforcement is left to the FBI. Posse comitatus makes the military doing it illegal without some serious political situation - think Congress allowing it or a governor requesting the National Guard. I'd imagine the situation is either "the USAF was involved in tracking down a crime was committed on an Air Force Base" or, more likely, the real headline is "the FBI, with Air Force personnel in attendance as advisors, kicked in the door"
[+] [-] ortusdux|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] AlbertCory|3 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mApBa2qKVDM&list=PL4ugKP-T4L...
[+] [-] ethbr0|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jbegley|3 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlrHNKatHMc
[+] [-] rantingdemon|3 years ago|reply
Through all of this, our constitutional rights to freedom of expression, and freedom of press, has stayed sound. We have had multiple instances where journalists reported on some nefarious action and were intimidated or even legally threatened by authorities. However, our courts have, for the most part, sided with our freedom of expression and press rights. The South African government has had quite a couple of punches on the nose in our courts ;-).
I have read most of the comments in this thread. I think I understand most of the viewpoints, and I always try and have an open mind. I am also not an American citizen. However, like every Earth citizen I have a keen interest (possibly forced...) on USA issues. "If America sneeze the world catches a cold".
This is clearly a very contentious topic, and I will reply with some specific thoughts on specific comments. I just wanted to give the perspective of a citizen in a country where this is a serious history of government abuse. We cannot take these things likely. Now that I think about it, I think the Germans feel the same way (living through the Gestapo and Stasi years could not have been fun....).
[+] [-] taxicabjesus|3 years ago|reply
"How'd you find your way to the desert?" Phoenix was half-way between the labs in Los Angeles, the labs in New Mexico, and the testing sites in Nevada.
For a young single man, life on the secret bases in Nevada was pretty sweet. All the meals were the same price (steak, lobster, etc), ammunition was cheap, etc. The married guys didn't like it so much, but he was not married at the time.
Ooohhhh... Interesting. There are rumors on the internet about the federal government having extensive underground infrastructure in the western United States. This made sense to me: if you want to hide something, you put it underground. So I asked my passenger about this.
"Oh yeah, but there's way more stuff underground at Area 12 [0], than at Area 51."
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Area_12_(Nevada_N... (Redirect is to "Rainier Mesa", "one of four major nuclear test regions within the Nevada National Security Site (NNSS)".)
I'm partial to the idea that nothing important happens at Area 51 anymore, just your average everyday testing of the latest thermodynamics-compliant military hardware. All the interesting R&D is now done somewhere else.
Ingo Swann [1] said in his Art Bell interview (iirc), w.r.t. his self-published book [2], that the secret program he was involved with, which he couldn't prove, never even got to the point where it needed to be 'classified'.
[1] my earlier comment about Swann: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33295488
[2] Penetration: The Question of Extraterrestrial and Human Telepathy - https://books.google.com/books/about/Penetration_the_Questio...
[edit: added [1] & renumbered links] [edit2: added clarification to wikipedia's redirect link.]
[+] [-] Cthulhu_|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dwringer|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TedDoesntTalk|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fluoridation|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tomphoolery|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adolph|3 years ago|reply
The first time I ventured into the Nellis Ranges was on a flight from Tonopah to Rachel via R4807A where I went down to the edge of that side of 4808A [also known as "The Box"] and got some good views of Groom [Area 51] from the north. After departing Rachel, I was given permission to enter R4806W enroute to Henderson and proceeded to fly the perimeter of The Box and R4808N basically to Yucca Lake.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/32919/pilot-takes-amaz...
[+] [-] O__________O|3 years ago|reply
https://www.dreamlandresort.com/info/janet_terminal.html
[+] [-] bragr|3 years ago|reply
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_(airline)
[+] [-] kevinmchugh|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pjc50|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] _trampeltier|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mclightning|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] tarboreus|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] prirun|3 years ago|reply
> Each home was searched by 15-20 agents in full riot gear, causing further damage in both homes besides the broken front doors
> I was very surprised how forceful the search warrant was executed and how rough we, both unarmed senior citizens, were treated.
> Even my phone was taken, leaving me in Rachel with two broken doors and no way to communicate or call for help.
I don't care what the hell he did, this kind of abuse is not acceptable. It's no wonder Americans have lost respect for law enforcement: the people enforcing the law are often committing worse crimes than the supposed criminals.
Taking his electronic shit I get. But not letting the poor woman get dressed? That's just a bunch of thugs having a playday with their toys.
[+] [-] thih9|3 years ago|reply
I realise that flying drones over restricted airspaces is not allowed. At the same time it doesn't feel like this kind of treatment was justified. Wouldn't three or four police officers (and no riot gear) be enough?
[+] [-] nscalf|3 years ago|reply
It seems very excessive from the outside, because we have full knowledge of the situation at the outcome. When you go into these situations, you're essentially blind, so you're exposing yourself to the entire risk profile.
[+] [-] pionar|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chmod775|3 years ago|reply
Most civilized places the only thing coming through his door would've been a letter informing him about his upcoming appointment at a local police station.
[+] [-] paganel|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] alexb_|3 years ago|reply
And this doesn't have anything to do with Area 51 in particular either. If someone did this to any Air Force base, the same thing would happen. Drones are banned from all bases for obvious reasons.
[+] [-] GartzenDeHaes|3 years ago|reply
- Secret aircraft and drones (F117, HavBlue)
- Testing of Soviet aircraft and equipment (Red Flag)
- Strategic Defense Initiative (Star Wars) projects, such as laser tagging of satellites
It's also a active USAF bombing range used by Nellis AFB.
[+] [-] idrathernot|3 years ago|reply
Thanks to civil forfeiture, he’ll likely never get his stuff back from the Government MAFIA’s attempt to terrorize him into silence.
[+] [-] risyachka|3 years ago|reply
If a person doesn't understand the importance of secret military bases and that all us power and influence in the world (and dollar purchase power) is like 70% resulted form their military, then I don't even know what to say.
[+] [-] indymike|3 years ago|reply
Maybe, but I suspect the Streisand effect will be strong here, and there will be some enterprising lawyer willing to enhance the brand.
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] untech|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] phpisthebest|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Cthulhu_|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] neilv|3 years ago|reply
(And one of them appeared to oops while juggling a sockpuppet account on HN to help promote -- which was a little suspicious because that tactic seemed incongruent with the goal they claimed. I suppose, with that project, the non-US intel value could've been intentional. It's much easier to imagine a lot of people being motivated to follow Area 51, just out of curiosity and the mystique, and not seeing any harm in it.)
Which prompts the thought: with all sorts of geopolitical tensions going on right now -- as much as we Internet-age techies can be global citizens who extend fellowship (through HN, open source, research communities, companies, etc.) -- maybe we should try to be aware when actions we are considering doing would stray into delicate global balances that we don't understand. We don't know enough to know everything to avoid, but maybe sometimes we can guess, so it seems worth the occasional thought.
[+] [-] belter|3 years ago|reply
- What you mean Paul?
- Well you know...All these thousands of people we fly in every day, the random events, its an expensive facade to maintain! But the department demands it!.
- I see Paul. I guess it's worth it no? Anything to keep their attention focused on it. Last thing we want is them finding out about Areas 52 and 53!
[+] [-] shiftpgdn|3 years ago|reply
"I am Joerg Arnu, owner and webmaster of the Dreamland Resort web site (www.DreamlandResort.com). The subject of the web site is Area 51. I have operated that web site since 1999.
Last week Thursday (11/3/22) in the early morning my homes in Rachel (just outside of Area 51) and in Las Vegas were searched by a joint force of FBI and AF OSI. This happened without any warning. The doors were broken open and I in Rachel and my girlfriend in our Las Vegas home were detained and treated in the most disrespectful way. My girlfriend was led out into the street barefoot and only in her underwear in full view of our neighbors; I was led outside, handcuffed and only in t-shirt and sweats in sub-freezing temperatures.
Each home was searched by 15-20 agents in full riot gear, causing further damage in both homes besides the broken front doors. Despite my repeated requests for an explanation, I was only told that the search was related to images posted on my Area 51 web site.
I was very surprised how forceful the search warrant was executed and how rough we, both unarmed senior citizens, were treated. I have to believe that someone gave them bad information about us. All my laptops, phones, backup drives, camera gear and my drone were seized. With the equipment I lost all my medical records, financial and tax records, passwords, email and phone contacts, photos etc. Even my phone was taken, leaving me in Rachel with two broken doors and no way to communicate or call for help.
Not counting my expected legal expenses my losses so far include over $20k in equipment taken and over $5k in damage.
There are 40 pages missing from the search warrant I received and the case records are sealed. So, I cannot look up the reason for the search and I do not want to speculate. I left several messages with the FBI agent in charge but he has not returned any of my calls. At this point I have no choice but to take legal action to try and get my equipment back and to seek reimbursement for the damage.
In an effort to defuse the situation I have removed some material from my Dreamland Resort web site although I believe that it was legally obtained and legal to publish. I am not sharing anything on my web site that cannot be found on dozens of other web sites and news outlet publications. Considering how this went down I have no intention of removing any more material unless ordered to do so by a federal judge.
I believe the search, executed with completely unnecessary force by overzealous government agents was meant as a message to silence the Area 51 research community. The question now is: How far will they go?
"
This should serve as a gentle reminder that the police, the FBI, and other law enforcement are not your friends and that you should run encryption on all of your devices.
[+] [-] denton-scratch|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wollsmoth|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jahewson|3 years ago|reply
Yep, that’ll work.
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] balozi|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alexb_|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] HWR_14|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]