Hyundai/Kia seems to be doing a great job with their electric cars, in terms of design, fast charging, etc.
But it appears they are only selling them in a few states, and in pretty small quantities. With dealer markup problems in some cases.
The Genesis version is the most appealing to me. I'd strongly consider buying it... except they are not offered where I live, in the middle of the country.
If they can increase quantities, it would be great to reach where Tesla has been for years: fill in a form on your phone anywhere in the US (and various other countries) and pick one up for the published price in after a (sometimes short, sometimes not so short) delay.
People get triggered when I say this but I’m holding out for something over 400 miles in range.
By the time you account for the range being exaggerated, then that you’re not supposed to charge to 100%, and then that you want to be able to drive fast on the highway, your available range is dropping fast.
My goal would be only making one charging stop a day on a road trip for going at least 600 miles.
But how often do you actually make a 600 mile trip? (and how often in a day? That's a good 10 hours of driving) Carrying around all that extra battery weight for your daily 20 mile round-trip commute doesn't seem very efficient (energy or moneywise). And if you did make a 600 mile trip in a day, well, you've gotta stop to eat, right? The car can be charging while you're eating.
> People get triggered when I say this but I’m holding out for something over 400 miles in range.
I have almost the opposite desire! I want something that is maybe 100-200km range at a much lower price point. If I could buy something like an electric Mazda 3 with that sort of range at anything like the price point of the ICE version I'd buy one tomorrow. It would suffice for 99% of my driven distance, easily.
I think this car will sell for over $70k here in Australia, from a quick websearch. This pushes it straight into luxury car [tax] territory; I am not a car person & have no interest in dropping that much on a car.
Consider: your car can charge at some maximum rate. Let’s call it 200kw. That means you can add so many miles of range per minute of charging. Is it really that important whether that charging occurs during one thirty-minute stop or two fifteen-minute stops?
When you make the battery really big, you increase the weight of the car. The number of miles of range per kWh goes down.
Actually, it’s not optimal to use the entire range between each stop, because the battery car charge faster between (very roughly) 20% and 80%.
The most important thing is to have a lot of charging stations in spots that you can very quickly access from the highway. Then you can stop when optimal and minimize the amount of wasted time (your car’s navigation should tell you when).
At some point, putting even more batteries in the car will not get you there faster. Barring some big breakthrough in battery tech (or swaps), gas cars will have the advantage in miles per minute added during fueling.
There are cars with 400 mile range, but think hard about whether that is really what you want. It’ll cost you more to buy and charge, and the utility you get may not be worth it.
I don't doubt that this is what you prefer, but for the foreseeable future it's going to be a heavy and expensive car. You'll be paying a pretty high price to save about 20 minutes on a 10-hour trip.
Currently leading solutions for fast road trips are rapid charging or battery swaps, but you will have to stop a couple of times.
The Lucid Air meets and the Mercedes EQS very nearly meets your 400 mile benchmark. The BMW iX xDrive50 did 345 miles, so a 600 mile trip could be done with only one charging stop with enough buffer to find a charger.
Due to the nature of EV charge curves it can be faster to stop multiple times and charge from a low state of charge to a maximum of 80%. The remaining 20% will charge slower to protect the battery pack.
The ideal would be a battery pack capable of a high and flat charge curve. A 100 kWh pack that could sustain 500 kW for the whole curve would charge 0-100% in 12 minutes. Still not as fast as fueling, but 12 minutes for a full charge would be very practical.
The reason people will say that sounds unreasonable is the fact that the vast majority of people will probably be discomforted more by having to drive almost 1000 km with only one stop compared to having to stop two or three times to take bathroom breaks or eat. Not to even mention the fact that it is not safe for you or others to drive that long just one break.
I did SF to LA on one recharge with my Model Y. Wasn't very pleasant (physically painful) and I was following faster cars to get in their wind shadow. It works. I was going as fast as the fastest cars this way. Add hills though and it wouldn't work.
I wouldn't hold out if I were you. 400 miles range will eventually come but what's the point in waiting? EV cars are more pleasant to drive than ICE ones, full stop. Don't hold up, just upgrade to the 400 miles one when it comes out.
I’m actually the opposite but thought I’d reply to your comment since they’re opposing ends of needs.
I have a Spark EV that did 130 miles new, now ~100 highway miles after 6 years.
The warranty on the battery lasts another two years and they don’t make that battery anymore anyway. Replacement car would be a $27K Chevy Bolt, which is much longer range and way more expensive than I need.
I’d love to see a standard battery back that was around 100 miles range that cars would use 1-4 of them to achieve whatever range is desired.
Not to mention a standard form factor that would be available for 2-3 decades to prevent a car like my Spark EV with just 50K km from becoming landfill in a few years.
I don’t know all your circumstances, but I have found good charging options matters significantly more than extra capacity. 300 mile range is enough to go 150 miles out into the woods and back, which is a good distance. A midway charge at, say, an RV park along the way brings you up to 300 out and 300 back.
Further, when traveling along the freeway, a large battery just gets you a little further off the initial charge. It’s really your charging speed that sets your trip time.
I will still shell out for high range models, because I do stretch things, but I shop the charge network more than I do the range.
edit: everything I said below is moot, as BMW's iX offers 600 mile range! I presume parent commenter will be promptly purchasing one, as the only thing stopping them from going EV was the inability to buy a 600 mile range EV /s
I think the reason people "get triggered" is because you're throwing around a lot of claims about EVs that at best are not any different from mileage/range numbers in ICE vehicles and at worst are not true...not just because you want over 400 miles of range. I mean, dude: Tesla drivers aren't speed demons but they're no hypermiling prius drivers. Every time I see one, it's being driven unremarkably - ie just like everyone else.
Also, there's such a thing as buying based off the vehicle you need +99% of the time, and renting for the 1%. I know someone who owns an SUV that doesn't get great gas mileage, and they rent a more fuel-efficient sedan for when they have to drive on a long business trip, saving miles on their own car and also making the writeoff really easy.
>My goal would be only making one charging stop a day on a road trip for going at least 600 miles.
Averaging 70mph (which is generous given traffic and probably having some travel on slower secondary roads) that's 8.5 hours. That's a lot of driving for just one stop. My car warns me around 2 hours in that I should take a break, for example. Around the three hour mark, I'm usually ready for a leg-stretch, bathroom break, and giving my brain a bit of a rest.
Given humans generally like 2-3 meals a day, maybe, just maybe, "I wanna drive for 8-9 hours with one stop and until I can do that in an EV, I'm not buying one" is just a tad on the side of excuse-making?
An Ioniq 5 (and most other 800v architecture cars) will recharge 80% of its range in under 20 minutes on a 250kw charger (which are spreading pretty rapidly, even in the US)...that's not a lot more than what "everyone hit the bathroom, grab some food/drink, stretch your legs, and meet back at the car" takes.
Given most EVs these days come with lots of trip planning and there are numerous websites to help with it as well - allowing you to specify you want to stop at chargers near certain amenities, for example - I really don't get the concern.
People seriously need to get over this range anxiety stuff.
Honestly, it sounds like you want a plug-in-hybrid, unless you're only doing long trips. I looked at getting one with about a 35 mile range, which would cover >90% of my days driving, but I found it too expensive (because 2021 and because I prefer older used cars.)
The E-GMP platform shared by this car, as well as Ioniq 5 and Kia EV6 is great.
The 800V battery can charge really quickly, making these cars viable for road trips. In summer temperatures they really need only 18 minutes to recharge for 2-3 hours of driving, and the 300kW charging networks already exist across western Europe.
Expect these teardrop Porsche 911-esque designs with long slopes on the back to become more common in EVs since they minimize drag to help maximize range.
For even more extreme examples see the Aptera or the Light-Year.
Those drop too quickly, the air separates near the top. It doesn't buy you anything. Compare to the first Honda Insight; that's about as perfectly aero as a practical car can be.
But I don't see that being a priority. They're selling well as-is.
I hope the Aptera gets made. Being able to charge with 110v and get a decent amount of range overnight seems like a good thing, especially or renters who may not have access to a quick charger where they live.
These cars from Hyundai/Kia/Genesis are super cool, but there’s a catch. One must wait years to get them. Kia EV6 in average 15 months in Germany. This corporation wasn’t ready for success. On the long run this will heavily damage image of the brand. Looks like they prioritize Genesis car s delivery, so grab GV60 if possible.
For anyone wondering about the practicalities of an EV: cost trade-offs, home charging, and more, this entertaining video goes into extreme depth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iyp_X3mwE1w
This makes me even more pissed about the EV tax credit changes (only US-made vehicles count). Still don’t understand how it was legal for that to become effective immediately in mid-August.
I'm glad to not have my tax dollars subsidizing import car sales personally, so fine by me to limit that EV tax credit to domestic vehicles.
However, I would have preferred the fed not bailout big auto (or banks, or what's the latest socialized losses situation... Intel?). Either let it burn down when they fail or nationalize them and where's our national dividend?
I am sure it is against the wto rules; hopefully diplomatic efforts by Europe and others will have it stopped before implementation otherwise we will likely enter another unconstructive trade war.
I have to say that in the current economic climate EVs win against petrol vehicles so esaily when it comes to running costs that the tax credit is not needed in countries with a healthy amount of resale EV market. Discounts for city toll traffic due to no emissions should still stay in place to help protect air quality but running a reliable budget EV is definitely a winning strategy.
Although they've improved from their early days, Hyundai/Kia have never been one of the brands with a reputation for long term reliability, like Toyota and Honda. Any reason to believe they'll do better with their electric models?
And Hyundai/Kia like ruining their reputation by skimping in costs in ridiculous ways, like deciding to leave out basic hot wiring prevention that’s universally standard on cars these days. The result, TikTok videos demoing how to steal the cars for “lolz” and a rash of Hyundai/kia thefts.
Edit: although to be fair Tesla has a terrible reputation for weird part substitutions
I'm impressed with the risks Hyundai has been taking with their design language, especially on the EVs. This car is striking. Love it or hate it, boring it's not.
Looks like an Audi. Perhaps a bit of Porsche in there (i.e. more Audi). Makes sense when you consider the Audi people they hired.
I certainly agree with the sentiment that it is an improvement though. And that modern high-volume passengers cars (with some exceptions, like muscle cars) have in the past been so ugly.
> I'm impressed with the risks Hyundai has been taking with their design language, especially on the EVs. This car is striking. Love it or hate it, boring it's not.
Sure, in the sense that ripping off the Porsche Cayenne is risky at being sued for IP theft; it's sad but as it turns out the EV automotive design is about as stale as ICE is. That Dolorean Prototype Hyundai have been playing with was very reminiscent and likely borrowing off the polarizing hype of the Cybertruck--and since both are prototypes they don't need to do much other than the one off for PR reasons.
I disagree, Hyundai is doing what the Japanese started to do in the late 60's, that is apply their Industry know-how to European and American counterparts auto design, because quite frankly if you buy a Hyundai or a Kia it's quite likely it's for the cost and newly found reliability rather than the aesthetic aspect of the car.
This isn't to put down Hyundai, they were late enough to the automotive game that platform sharing was a thing and could pivot to EV in earnest; but the truth is that automotive design is simply a dead art and there is very little to no innovation going on, it's just rehashes of everything else.
I suspect if we fed any of these image based AIs all the cars and prototypes we've ever had we'd come up with something rather more unique than what we have now, the sad thing is because of standardization they would remain prototypes because of the costs and labour to get something like that to mass production.
Toyota is the best example of this, in that they are very visually boring cars but have optimized for QC and reliability to such an extent that you don't mind that much for what you get.
Personally speaking, I'm looking forward to the Hot-rod era re-birth when they will start to sell low cost EV swaps for old cars with minor fabrication kits: like how you can drop LSX into most chassis now. Because seeing a resto-mod 1940s Buick or Cadillac with a Model S Plaid power train seems way cooler than anything the OEMs will come out anymore.
I really want this car but I live in a full size SUV or F150 and above dominated area. Kind of need to be on guard. Plus charging is still too rare to just go and not worry about accommodating.
[+] [-] kylecordes|3 years ago|reply
But it appears they are only selling them in a few states, and in pretty small quantities. With dealer markup problems in some cases.
The Genesis version is the most appealing to me. I'd strongly consider buying it... except they are not offered where I live, in the middle of the country.
If they can increase quantities, it would be great to reach where Tesla has been for years: fill in a form on your phone anywhere in the US (and various other countries) and pick one up for the published price in after a (sometimes short, sometimes not so short) delay.
[+] [-] bilsbie|3 years ago|reply
By the time you account for the range being exaggerated, then that you’re not supposed to charge to 100%, and then that you want to be able to drive fast on the highway, your available range is dropping fast.
My goal would be only making one charging stop a day on a road trip for going at least 600 miles.
[+] [-] UncleOxidant|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] trog|3 years ago|reply
I have almost the opposite desire! I want something that is maybe 100-200km range at a much lower price point. If I could buy something like an electric Mazda 3 with that sort of range at anything like the price point of the ICE version I'd buy one tomorrow. It would suffice for 99% of my driven distance, easily.
I think this car will sell for over $70k here in Australia, from a quick websearch. This pushes it straight into luxury car [tax] territory; I am not a car person & have no interest in dropping that much on a car.
[+] [-] fshbbdssbbgdd|3 years ago|reply
When you make the battery really big, you increase the weight of the car. The number of miles of range per kWh goes down.
Actually, it’s not optimal to use the entire range between each stop, because the battery car charge faster between (very roughly) 20% and 80%.
The most important thing is to have a lot of charging stations in spots that you can very quickly access from the highway. Then you can stop when optimal and minimize the amount of wasted time (your car’s navigation should tell you when).
At some point, putting even more batteries in the car will not get you there faster. Barring some big breakthrough in battery tech (or swaps), gas cars will have the advantage in miles per minute added during fueling.
There are cars with 400 mile range, but think hard about whether that is really what you want. It’ll cost you more to buy and charge, and the utility you get may not be worth it.
[+] [-] pornel|3 years ago|reply
Currently leading solutions for fast road trips are rapid charging or battery swaps, but you will have to stop a couple of times.
Here's timing of 1000KM (~620mi) trips:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V6ucyFGKWuSQzvI8lMzv...
[+] [-] clouddrover|3 years ago|reply
- https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/
- Updated with the Hummer EV: https://insideevs.com/reviews/612030/hummer-ev-range-test/
The Lucid Air meets and the Mercedes EQS very nearly meets your 400 mile benchmark. The BMW iX xDrive50 did 345 miles, so a 600 mile trip could be done with only one charging stop with enough buffer to find a charger.
Due to the nature of EV charge curves it can be faster to stop multiple times and charge from a low state of charge to a maximum of 80%. The remaining 20% will charge slower to protect the battery pack.
The ideal would be a battery pack capable of a high and flat charge curve. A 100 kWh pack that could sustain 500 kW for the whole curve would charge 0-100% in 12 minutes. Still not as fast as fueling, but 12 minutes for a full charge would be very practical.
[+] [-] originalvichy|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] AYBABTME|3 years ago|reply
I wouldn't hold out if I were you. 400 miles range will eventually come but what's the point in waiting? EV cars are more pleasant to drive than ICE ones, full stop. Don't hold up, just upgrade to the 400 miles one when it comes out.
[+] [-] jonpurdy|3 years ago|reply
I have a Spark EV that did 130 miles new, now ~100 highway miles after 6 years.
The warranty on the battery lasts another two years and they don’t make that battery anymore anyway. Replacement car would be a $27K Chevy Bolt, which is much longer range and way more expensive than I need.
I’d love to see a standard battery back that was around 100 miles range that cars would use 1-4 of them to achieve whatever range is desired.
Not to mention a standard form factor that would be available for 2-3 decades to prevent a car like my Spark EV with just 50K km from becoming landfill in a few years.
[+] [-] AtlasBarfed|3 years ago|reply
2) charging to max range is bad for the battery
3) the rated range isn't the actual range in real life
4) you want to drive 10mph faster
5) cold is hard on EVs
6) wind
7) less availability of charging
8) you don't take it down to 0 miles
All of a sudden, a 400 mile range car is 280 or worse in effective distance.
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] ip26|3 years ago|reply
Further, when traveling along the freeway, a large battery just gets you a little further off the initial charge. It’s really your charging speed that sets your trip time.
I will still shell out for high range models, because I do stretch things, but I shop the charge network more than I do the range.
[+] [-] KennyBlanken|3 years ago|reply
I think the reason people "get triggered" is because you're throwing around a lot of claims about EVs that at best are not any different from mileage/range numbers in ICE vehicles and at worst are not true...not just because you want over 400 miles of range. I mean, dude: Tesla drivers aren't speed demons but they're no hypermiling prius drivers. Every time I see one, it's being driven unremarkably - ie just like everyone else.
Also, there's such a thing as buying based off the vehicle you need +99% of the time, and renting for the 1%. I know someone who owns an SUV that doesn't get great gas mileage, and they rent a more fuel-efficient sedan for when they have to drive on a long business trip, saving miles on their own car and also making the writeoff really easy.
>My goal would be only making one charging stop a day on a road trip for going at least 600 miles.
Averaging 70mph (which is generous given traffic and probably having some travel on slower secondary roads) that's 8.5 hours. That's a lot of driving for just one stop. My car warns me around 2 hours in that I should take a break, for example. Around the three hour mark, I'm usually ready for a leg-stretch, bathroom break, and giving my brain a bit of a rest.
Given humans generally like 2-3 meals a day, maybe, just maybe, "I wanna drive for 8-9 hours with one stop and until I can do that in an EV, I'm not buying one" is just a tad on the side of excuse-making?
An Ioniq 5 (and most other 800v architecture cars) will recharge 80% of its range in under 20 minutes on a 250kw charger (which are spreading pretty rapidly, even in the US)...that's not a lot more than what "everyone hit the bathroom, grab some food/drink, stretch your legs, and meet back at the car" takes.
Given most EVs these days come with lots of trip planning and there are numerous websites to help with it as well - allowing you to specify you want to stop at chargers near certain amenities, for example - I really don't get the concern.
People seriously need to get over this range anxiety stuff.
[+] [-] tbihl|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aaronbrethorst|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pornel|3 years ago|reply
The 800V battery can charge really quickly, making these cars viable for road trips. In summer temperatures they really need only 18 minutes to recharge for 2-3 hours of driving, and the 300kW charging networks already exist across western Europe.
[+] [-] clouddrover|3 years ago|reply
https://www.genesis.com/us/en/2023/genesis-gv60.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVpLJNNG9Y8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLSIvjCi9_g
[+] [-] danans|3 years ago|reply
For even more extreme examples see the Aptera or the Light-Year.
[+] [-] coryrc|3 years ago|reply
But I don't see that being a priority. They're selling well as-is.
[+] [-] UncleOxidant|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lnsru|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mgrandl|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] solarkraft|3 years ago|reply
Isn't every car and especially every EV hard to get at the moment?
[+] [-] gcanyon|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] miguelazo|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pengaru|3 years ago|reply
However, I would have preferred the fed not bailout big auto (or banks, or what's the latest socialized losses situation... Intel?). Either let it burn down when they fail or nationalize them and where's our national dividend?
[+] [-] throwaway4good|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] originalvichy|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TexanFeller|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mint2|3 years ago|reply
Edit: although to be fair Tesla has a terrible reputation for weird part substitutions
[+] [-] rootusrootus|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] randrews9|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] VBprogrammer|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] UncleOxidant|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xattt|3 years ago|reply
(1) https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38674592/sony-vision-s-02...
[+] [-] JamesianP|3 years ago|reply
I certainly agree with the sentiment that it is an improvement though. And that modern high-volume passengers cars (with some exceptions, like muscle cars) have in the past been so ugly.
[+] [-] germinalphrase|3 years ago|reply
With this, I love a lot of the design choices in isolation - but as a whole package, I’m not quite sure. I’d need to walk around one.
Interior side mirror screens are an interesting UX choice.
[+] [-] Melting_Harps|3 years ago|reply
Sure, in the sense that ripping off the Porsche Cayenne is risky at being sued for IP theft; it's sad but as it turns out the EV automotive design is about as stale as ICE is. That Dolorean Prototype Hyundai have been playing with was very reminiscent and likely borrowing off the polarizing hype of the Cybertruck--and since both are prototypes they don't need to do much other than the one off for PR reasons.
I disagree, Hyundai is doing what the Japanese started to do in the late 60's, that is apply their Industry know-how to European and American counterparts auto design, because quite frankly if you buy a Hyundai or a Kia it's quite likely it's for the cost and newly found reliability rather than the aesthetic aspect of the car.
This isn't to put down Hyundai, they were late enough to the automotive game that platform sharing was a thing and could pivot to EV in earnest; but the truth is that automotive design is simply a dead art and there is very little to no innovation going on, it's just rehashes of everything else.
I suspect if we fed any of these image based AIs all the cars and prototypes we've ever had we'd come up with something rather more unique than what we have now, the sad thing is because of standardization they would remain prototypes because of the costs and labour to get something like that to mass production.
Toyota is the best example of this, in that they are very visually boring cars but have optimized for QC and reliability to such an extent that you don't mind that much for what you get.
Personally speaking, I'm looking forward to the Hot-rod era re-birth when they will start to sell low cost EV swaps for old cars with minor fabrication kits: like how you can drop LSX into most chassis now. Because seeing a resto-mod 1940s Buick or Cadillac with a Model S Plaid power train seems way cooler than anything the OEMs will come out anymore.
[+] [-] gtaylor|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ARandomerDude|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RickJWagner|3 years ago|reply
Great times are ahead for car buyers.
[+] [-] fredestine|3 years ago|reply
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