When I moved to East TN temporarily years ago, I opened the door to the rental to see a swastika on the doorstep. My first thought was 'oh come on, really', as if every stereotype was right. It was small and in red, maybe lipstick?
So I googled, and realized it was backwards. And that was the apparently the symbol of the article.
I called the owner just to let him know I didn't do it. Really old 'grumpy' white guy. He said 'oh, some sweet Indian family lived here before you, they asked if they could do that and I told them it's theirs to do what they want. You can leave it or clean it off.'
Learned a lot that day, and busted a few common stereotypes in the process. Ended up being an area with a lot of really good people.
FWIW, I ended up leaving it after reading about it. As mentioned, it wasn't big nor offensive looking. I wonder if the next family went through the same thing.
Not relevant just to Asian faiths, as it was a symbol widely used in many Indo-European cultures, particularly Slavic and Roman(and Germanic, but that perhaps hits too close to the problem). You still can see it as ornament carved into wooden beams under a roof and above doors on many old houses in rural areas of Serbia and Romania. Not sure though if it had any real superstitious meaning after the Christianity came, or it was just a traditional ornament that continued to be used purely as a decoration.
Imagine if we decided the letter Z needed to be removed from our language because of Russia’s atrocities.
But I think there’s plenty of room for understanding and nuance rather than just saying, “hey people who are offended by this symbol, read your history books and toughen up!” Millions were exterminated by those wearing the symbol.
There is no such thing as ownership of a symbol. It has different, equally valid meanings to different audiences.
- Anyone can re/claim any symbol
- No other symbols have been banned
You may not like or agree with it, but symbols do have owners and they do matter. Look at today's news around the USA football team and the Iranian flag today for an example.
Someone at my work actually suggested, with a straight face, that we do just that. I think specifically they suggested we stop referring to "gen-z" because there was a letter Z in it.
If the Nazis had used a common letter like Z, there would not be the same stigma attached to the symbol. That this is so obvious suggests your argument has a flaw.
I remember when people would sell various bits of plumbing such as valves and pipe fittings with swastikas on them, claiming them to be WW2 German artifacts, when in fact they were prewar products of the American Crane company:
> “A rose by any other name is a rose,” he said. “In the end it’s how a symbol affects you visually and emotionally. For many, it creates a visceral impact and that’s a fact.”
I'm sympathetic to both sides of this argument, but I think the "rose by any other name" allusion is inapt. The rose by any other name would smell as sweet, because the physical existence of the rose is independent of our social or cultural understanding of the rose. The swastika is a symbol and its offensiveness is due to our cultural understanding of its meaning as a symbol. The swastika is neither inherently a symbol of hatred and murder nor one of peace; it has no objective meaning or reality in itself.
The symbol is going to be associated with nazis so long as nazis keep using it, and people in the west (especially for places and people affected by the nazis) will find it offensive.
An irony is that this symbol coexists in Hindu temples with that other symbol known in the West as the "Star of David" -- which is not, actually, a specifically Jewish symbol.
2.
That this also appears in American indigenous cultures is extremely interesting, because it points either to very old origins (before people crossed the Bering Strait), or to co-evolution (almost like the "discovery" of mathematical abstractions).
Related, there is some evidence that some American indigenous myths, related to the constellations, share a common structure with myths from ancient Greece and elsewhere. Again, this may point to very old origins before the human diaspora across the continents.
I wonder how much culture is shared, dating back to the neolithic.
3.
This then is a second irony: That symbols from closer to the root of the linguistic and phylogenetic tree -- symbols that are more in common to us -- are used to divide.
I have a late 1920s or early 1930s "Better Homes and Gardens" type magazine, that has a single panel humor cartoon in it of the "you always want us to keep up with the Joneses" variety.
The Native American teepee in the cartoon is depicted with a swastika on it; apparently it was a symbol of good luck with some tribes?
There is also a Red Swastika Society in China [1]. In Singapore, there is a Red Swastika School [2]. AFAIK, the Jewish society in Singapore has never objected to its presence.
Renaming Nazi uses of the symbol to 'hakenkreuz' seems like a good idea to me. But we should expect changes in connotation to happen slowly, and in a way that's not entirely controllable.
At the very least, I hope we can avoid getting the state involved in censoring or punishing genuine religious displays, as happened in one case described in the article.
When I was teaching in China I went with a student to a paint-your-own pottery shop. She painted a little cat and finished it off by drawing two 卍 on the ears. I wonder if this is part of the Chinese inheritance from India? Chinese families also commonly paint bindi dots on the foreheads of toddlers.
I'm not going to say you can't use a swastika in India, but the people the article opens with are extremely naive, and should recognize that, or they're just trolling. You can't live in the US (Queens is in NY, right?) and think you can simply display a swastika, mirrored or not.
> You can't live in the US and think you can simply display a swastika, mirrored or not.
The US has the First Amendment. This would clearly be protected First Amendment speech.
Obviously a condo board or co-op board can have its own rules about displays in common areas inside the building similar to a HOA. But even these are subject to the Fair Housing Act, and cannot discriminate based on religion.
It's not that unusual to see swastikas in their appropriate context among the various Indian communities living in Canada; I've seen them on homes, temples and on Diwali holiday cards.
> "It's nothing with Hitler. We don't follow Hitler. We don't follow even extremist people right now, okay? We are a religion against that," he said. "Believe me I don't know that's his symbol. That's a Hitler's symbol? I don't know."
Naive is a little harsh, but maybe it's the right word. It's usually not trolling. When I was a kid, a family in our neighbourhood, recent Chinese immigrants, initially chose the English name Adolph for their son. They'd certainly heard of Hitler; but they were unaware of the intensity of the name taboo.
America is not that open minded. Even though the commercials say so. As long as we give folks privilege because of the color of their epidermis white/black/yellow/glow in the dark pink. If they can't get past realizing that it's performance that matters vs your shell. They will never get past symbol stories. Just the reality on the ground. No matter how much money you throw at it.
Nowhere in the mein kampf by Hitler does he call it a swastika, in the original German publication He called it haken Cruz which literally means hooked cross, it being a hooked Christian cross. t was a Christian bishop who translated it to English and translated hakencruz to swastika. Effectively taking the blame off Christianity and pushing it onto eastern religions
I'm neither Jewish nor Asian, but I do always have a large tin of this delicious Chinese vegetarian barbecue sauce in the fridge with a prominent 卍 on it.[1] It's a fantastic marinade, among other things.
Anyways, it resembles a Nazi swastika enough for the uninitiated to look twice when opening the fridge. It causes me some cringe when I think about it but my Chinese friends and family assure me it's common, has nothing to do with hateful values, and long predates the Nazi use, and ... shrug?
Indeed, it predates the Nazis by centuries if not millenia and has nothing to do with the Nazis. So why should Chinese (and East Asians in general) change their ways because a crazy foreigner in a small country on the other side of the world used a similar symbol?
As usual, cultural diversity is abhorrent to the symbol-minded. A shape which has been drawn by humans around the world since prehistory is effectively banned because a small group of people decided to use it while they did a bunch of nasty stuff.
I don't see anyone trying to ban crosses or raise a fuss about them, and Christians have historically used it as a symbol while perpetrating many horrifying acts. Nobody is trying to ban the flags of any of the other countries which engaged in slavery, genocide, and colonial oppression, and those are at least reasonably unique. Why should this ancient religious symbol be forever tainted?
> A shape which has been drawn by humans around the world since prehistory is effectively banned because a small group of people decided to use it while they did a bunch of nasty stuff.
Yep.
Trying to minimize WWII and the holocaust is not a good point to start an argument from.
It would also help if there weren't a resurgence of them to deal with today.
> small group of people decided to use it while they did a bunch of nasty stuff.
Try again. A genocidal regime that conquered western europe by force, almost succeeded in overthrowing world democracy and caused the deaths of tens of millions.
Your examples are extremely powerful religions and countries, rhat's why any movement to curtail their symbols is a non-starter. If the Nazis had won, it would be the same with their symbols.
> a small group of people decided to use it while they did a bunch of nasty stuff.
It sounds like you might not understand the vast scale of the Holocaust, and that it affected every Jewish person in Europe. It sounds like you might not realize what also happened to the Polish Christians (and other Slavic peoples) under the Germans - which was another attempted genocide by itself.
We spent 1000 years in Poland, and our entire culture was totally destroyed in just a few years. 90% of the Jewish people in Europe were murdered. In many places, no Jews remain at all.
[+] [-] silisili|3 years ago|reply
So I googled, and realized it was backwards. And that was the apparently the symbol of the article.
I called the owner just to let him know I didn't do it. Really old 'grumpy' white guy. He said 'oh, some sweet Indian family lived here before you, they asked if they could do that and I told them it's theirs to do what they want. You can leave it or clean it off.'
Learned a lot that day, and busted a few common stereotypes in the process. Ended up being an area with a lot of really good people.
FWIW, I ended up leaving it after reading about it. As mentioned, it wasn't big nor offensive looking. I wonder if the next family went through the same thing.
[+] [-] ivanhoe|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Waterluvian|3 years ago|reply
But I think there’s plenty of room for understanding and nuance rather than just saying, “hey people who are offended by this symbol, read your history books and toughen up!” Millions were exterminated by those wearing the symbol.
There is no such thing as ownership of a symbol. It has different, equally valid meanings to different audiences.
[+] [-] squiffsquiff|3 years ago|reply
- Anyone can re/claim any symbol - No other symbols have been banned
You may not like or agree with it, but symbols do have owners and they do matter. Look at today's news around the USA football team and the Iranian flag today for an example.
[+] [-] hrnnnnnn|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] thomassmith65|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TulliusCicero|3 years ago|reply
There is zero chance such a law is found to be constitutional in the US.
[+] [-] userbinator|3 years ago|reply
https://mechanical-hub.com/did-you-know/
https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/60edsv/a...
[+] [-] djur|3 years ago|reply
I'm sympathetic to both sides of this argument, but I think the "rose by any other name" allusion is inapt. The rose by any other name would smell as sweet, because the physical existence of the rose is independent of our social or cultural understanding of the rose. The swastika is a symbol and its offensiveness is due to our cultural understanding of its meaning as a symbol. The swastika is neither inherently a symbol of hatred and murder nor one of peace; it has no objective meaning or reality in itself.
[+] [-] jlengrand|3 years ago|reply
https://github.com/pdoc3/pdoc/issues/64 https://github.com/pdoc3/pdoc/issues/87
I've learnt a lot about cultures through those PRs
[+] [-] ThrowawayTestr|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] baryphonic|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rrwo|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] FooBarBizBazz|3 years ago|reply
An irony is that this symbol coexists in Hindu temples with that other symbol known in the West as the "Star of David" -- which is not, actually, a specifically Jewish symbol.
2.
That this also appears in American indigenous cultures is extremely interesting, because it points either to very old origins (before people crossed the Bering Strait), or to co-evolution (almost like the "discovery" of mathematical abstractions).
Related, there is some evidence that some American indigenous myths, related to the constellations, share a common structure with myths from ancient Greece and elsewhere. Again, this may point to very old origins before the human diaspora across the continents.
I wonder how much culture is shared, dating back to the neolithic.
3.
This then is a second irony: That symbols from closer to the root of the linguistic and phylogenetic tree -- symbols that are more in common to us -- are used to divide.
[+] [-] shrubble|3 years ago|reply
The Native American teepee in the cartoon is depicted with a swastika on it; apparently it was a symbol of good luck with some tribes?
City of Albuquerque web site on its use: https://www.cabq.gov/artsculture/kimo/history-of-the-kimo/ki...
[+] [-] sohkamyung|3 years ago|reply
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Swastika_Society
[2] https://redswastika.moe.edu.sg/
[+] [-] krupan|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] benrapscallion|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] c0m|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pxc|3 years ago|reply
At the very least, I hope we can avoid getting the state involved in censoring or punishing genuine religious displays, as happened in one case described in the article.
[+] [-] emmelaich|3 years ago|reply
If you consider the angles as feet, then similar icons are the three-legged Isle of Man one and the many legged Easter European symbol.
Customs house in central Sydney has Fylfots on its floor.
[+] [-] mjklin|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mytailorisrich|3 years ago|reply
If you open Google Maps over Japan you'll see it used to mark the location of Buddhist temples.
[+] [-] tgv|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] diebeforei485|3 years ago|reply
The US has the First Amendment. This would clearly be protected First Amendment speech.
Obviously a condo board or co-op board can have its own rules about displays in common areas inside the building similar to a HOA. But even these are subject to the Fair Housing Act, and cannot discriminate based on religion.
[+] [-] markdown|3 years ago|reply
This silliness of taking things out of context and then attacking them has got to stop.
Hindus were using the symbol long before the existence of the German state.
Nazis using the swastika as an expression of hate, not OK. Hindus using their symbol, OK.
[+] [-] retrac|3 years ago|reply
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/swastika-fla...
> "It's nothing with Hitler. We don't follow Hitler. We don't follow even extremist people right now, okay? We are a religion against that," he said. "Believe me I don't know that's his symbol. That's a Hitler's symbol? I don't know."
Naive is a little harsh, but maybe it's the right word. It's usually not trolling. When I was a kid, a family in our neighbourhood, recent Chinese immigrants, initially chose the English name Adolph for their son. They'd certainly heard of Hitler; but they were unaware of the intensity of the name taboo.
[+] [-] nowayjose67|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aaomidi|3 years ago|reply
I’m well aware of the trolling that happens with this. But that’s definitely not an excuse to say genuine uses of it are not allowed.
[+] [-] amriksohata|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] baybal2|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] emptybits|3 years ago|reply
Anyways, it resembles a Nazi swastika enough for the uninitiated to look twice when opening the fridge. It causes me some cringe when I think about it but my Chinese friends and family assure me it's common, has nothing to do with hateful values, and long predates the Nazi use, and ... shrug?
[1] https://www.kuohua.ca/shop/p0540023/
[+] [-] mytailorisrich|3 years ago|reply
Indeed, it predates the Nazis by centuries if not millenia and has nothing to do with the Nazis. So why should Chinese (and East Asians in general) change their ways because a crazy foreigner in a small country on the other side of the world used a similar symbol?
[+] [-] amanaplanacanal|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] t-3|3 years ago|reply
I don't see anyone trying to ban crosses or raise a fuss about them, and Christians have historically used it as a symbol while perpetrating many horrifying acts. Nobody is trying to ban the flags of any of the other countries which engaged in slavery, genocide, and colonial oppression, and those are at least reasonably unique. Why should this ancient religious symbol be forever tainted?
[+] [-] tom_|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lamontcg|3 years ago|reply
Yep.
Trying to minimize WWII and the holocaust is not a good point to start an argument from.
It would also help if there weren't a resurgence of them to deal with today.
We have ongoing problems with that symbology.
Pretty much cemented my opinion there.
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] beachy|3 years ago|reply
Try again. A genocidal regime that conquered western europe by force, almost succeeded in overthrowing world democracy and caused the deaths of tens of millions.
[+] [-] tdeck|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] beezlewax|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] HebericNewt|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] moshegramovsky|3 years ago|reply
It sounds like you might not understand the vast scale of the Holocaust, and that it affected every Jewish person in Europe. It sounds like you might not realize what also happened to the Polish Christians (and other Slavic peoples) under the Germans - which was another attempted genocide by itself.
We spent 1000 years in Poland, and our entire culture was totally destroyed in just a few years. 90% of the Jewish people in Europe were murdered. In many places, no Jews remain at all.
https://vanishedworld.blog/exhibition/
[+] [-] hulitu|3 years ago|reply
Vae victis. This symbol has become a non symbol because the history was rewritten.
[+] [-] rswskg|3 years ago|reply
I did advise the student that London in 2004 wasn't yet ready to understand the subtle differences.
Not sure it's moved any closer since then.