I fortunately have close friends, but not through any of my own doing. Over the years, there were a lot of friendly extroverts that encouraged me to hang out and join them for burger night, or they’d message me when they were in town. Everyone I dated took the initiative to ask me out, including my wife. I always feel awkward when I reach out to people, as though I’m bothering them somehow, so I tend to avoid doing so. Once someone is a close friend, I go out of my way to maintain the connection, but it’s that in-between stage of “acquaintance” where I have a hard time.
I had a bit of a revelation when I left my last job. There were very few comments from coworkers when I left. I don’t think I was disliked (hopefully?), but I don’t think anyone really considered me their friend either. Looking back I think I came across as somewhat of a NPC to coworkers. I preferred to eat lunch by myself and I only discussed the business topic at hand during meetings unless someone else brought up a personal discussion.
I wouldn’t mind to start more personal discussions, but I’m always concerned it might come across the wrong way, so the furthest I seem to get is “how was your weekend?”
Something that's hard for me to explain is that "making friends is so hard it's easy"
What I mean by that is, social anxiety is so high, population-level self-absorption is so high, people are so lonely... that for the most part if you just approach someone and behave as if you're friends... they'll go for it.
There's so much DEMAND for friends, that people will gobble up your supply if you offer it (so long as you're not a total monster)
> I always feel awkward when I reach out to people, as though I’m bothering them somehow, so I tend to avoid doing so.
Sometime around 30 it hit me like a swinging log to my introverted face that the reason I felt that way was because that's how I felt when people reached out to me.
It really shook my perspective to realize that many people like having someone reaching out to them and they are not annoyed by it.
Math makes this part of the human condition. I honestly think that the solution for the shy (like you and I) is to value the relationships that these extroverts offer. At least a couple of the extroverts will think you're wonderful, and the other people that they will accidentally bring into your life through their gregariousness will cover the range from extreme introvert to extreme extrovert and everything in between. You will be meeting those introverts through a person who they trust, which is your best opportunity for successfully connecting with other shy people.
The only caveats are that you can't focus on one extrovert; get to know more than one, they're happy to talk. Focusing your explorations on one extrovert puts too much burden on the extrovert, and they want to share their time with a lot of people. The second caveat is to not let the extrovert take advantage of you, because a lot of extroverts are con-men/sales-types.
edit: 97% of the good friends I have had in my adult life were the result of a single extrovert talking to me out of the blue in my high school cafeteria. Through her, I met my first real girlfriend, and met two of the members of the band I'd end up singing in and touring with in my 20s. Still friends 30 years later, so I guess she liked me.
If people are going out of their way to approach you (especially women), then it's probably down to you being attractive or at the very least above average.
> had a bit of a revelation when I left my last job. There were very few comments from coworkers when I left
Can't remember who said this to me, but it stuck: nobody remembers congratulatory calls for a new job. But you never forget each person who reached out when you were fired or let go.
It's fun but ephemeral to celebrate. It hurts to share pain, but it’s rewarding. When I find people my gut wants to share burdens with, I listen: they became close friends.
> the furthest I seem to get is “how was your weekend?”
Not a social expert here, but that isn't a bad start! Sure, it's a bit small-talk-y, but it can open up more interesting conversation topics. Assuming the person you're talking to give you more than just "oh, it was fine", anyway.
You can also modify it to "did you do anything interesting over the weekend?" And then if they say something specific, you can follow up with deeper questions about what they tell you they did, and go from there.
I get that it's hard, though. I considered myself an "extroverted introvert" (and even an "introverted extrovert", on my more socially-energetic days), though pandemic isolation has weakened the extrovert part. I often feel like asking deeper follow-up questions is intrusive and somehow bothersome, but I think the first step is to just make yourself not care, and ask anyway. Listen to how the person responds, and you should be able to get an idea if they do want to talk more about it, or if they'd rather not. If not, you can slow down and disengage. But if they do, then that's a good sign to continue.
«[…] slang used by millenials to denote people who act as if they are being told by someone to act in a specific manner, although that may not be the case. Using this abbreviation, the commentator or the creator is poking fun at the other person for acting in a certain manner.»
> I preferred to eat lunch by myself and I only discussed the business topic at hand during meetings unless someone else brought up a personal discussion.
Probably, they thought that you did not like them.
Very brief summary: a personal anecdote about forming good friends followed up by advice for how to have better conversions (vulnerability, curiosity) and how to meet more people who will become friends (meet people but filter out most of them, take initiative with following up), and lastly how to deepen friendships.
As someone who has a fair number of close friends, I think this is a good post with lots of solid advice. And it's written well! Personally I've been lucky to just naturally meet and form my best friends over time, but I definitely think taking initiative and following up are important to maintaining a close friendship.
A general point in this post I also like is that making and keeping close friends may require work and energy, rather than being something that life just throws your way. I intentionally try to periodically message friends, come out to places they live, just generally keep in touch; as one gets older people move about and it's harder to maintain your closest friendships, but it is possible!
Last comment: this is a very pragmatic and analytical post with a lot of discussions of things you can do, and not much discussion of how you should feel. I'd add this - just CARE. Appreciate the people in your life and let that appreciation guide you.
Great article, though it does give a sort of programmy-algorithmic answer to one of life's great questions. Not saying that's bad, just unexpected.
I was actually thinking about it today. Here's an awkward truth about friendships that everyone needs to get comfortable with: often one of you is more interested in the relationship than the other. You know what I mean. For instance, I was invited to a wedding a few weeks ago. It never occurred to me to write to this buddy in many years, I didn't invite him to my wedding, but he invited me to his. I had a great time, we caught up and had a good talk. The same has happened the other way round, I'm sure. People I like a lot and contact, but they don't contact me. Yet when we hang out, everyone has a good time.
If you act weird about these relationships, you lose them. You don't want to do that, because marginal relationships are maybe the most rewarding to maintain, IME. People doing different things to you in different places bring a lot more into your mix than the ones you see every day. There also tend to be many of these relationship-seeds, so your close friends will grow from some of them.
I'm in my 40's and I have a lot of close friends, both in my city (mostly newer friends) and around the country/world (mostly older friendships).
My trick is, I cheat. I'm happily single, live alone and have no children. That gives me the luxury of doing the heavy lifting in my friendships. I travel a lot and most of those trips are to stay with friends in their homes or to meet them at a third destination. That's been the most effective way to stay very close to my friends, as well as to become close to their spouses and kids. I understand most people can't do this because of their own family obligations. But maybe it's something people with families could do just once or twice a year to visit people important to them?
Beyond that, I'm usually the one to start group chats or send memes on social media or schedule video chats. Sometimes it's a chore, but usually it's effortless for me. And the close friends I've maintained to this point are with people who are usually very eager and able to stay in touch on their end. The others have fell by the wayside over the years. And some I have consciously excluded from my life when I realized they were bad friends.
I'd also add that, as a man, I find that women make better friends then men, especially past our 20's, and I'd encourage all men to consider finding and building more non-romantic relationships with women.
> building more non-romantic relationships with women.
I completely agree; I've always preferred being friends with women, but in my opinion it's not easy to do.
Things sometimes get complicated quickly if there's attraction on either side which often happens to at least one side if you're close friends. Even without romantic feelings, things get weird/awkward if either party is in a relationship or married.
I agree with a lot of this comment, but honestly having kids is just another connection point with other people - another reason to form a friendship.
A few months ago I organized a Dad's Drinks at a local bar. I walked there with a neighbor and realized that on every block there was at least one dad chilling in his house that wanted to come out. Having kids builds a habit to stay home, but isn't always a necessity - especially once the kids are 3 years old or older.
I'm old(er) mid-40's, single, no kids, and never married. I don't have much family or close friends. Hookup culture is de rigueur but it doesn't interest me. Where I'm at, there isn't a context to meet people and most random people in public around keep to themselves and treat me like I'm invisible. I do volunteering but that also doesn't go anywhere.
If you have to constantly take the social initiative, then you're carrying the relationship. Sometimes absence is better. Instead of dwelling on loneliness or self-pity, keeping productively busy seems a better alternative.
I'd like to have a family and kids, but an inability to find and make friends precludes that. The thought of getting old alone, having no one to check-in on me, no one to bury me, no one to care that I'm gone, and no one at a funeral seems depressing. I don't see how I won't end up in a "potter's field" somewhere.
It's a great article, but is not the way that I have worked.
I'm a bit "spectrumish." I'd make a great hermit. I don't really find a need to have close relationships.
One thing that I've found in any relationship, is that a "power dynamic" changes things a lot. Most romantic or working relationships have a "power dynamic," where one party has some kind of leverage over the other, or that one party gets more from the the relationship, than the other.
This isn't necessarily bad (after all, we get married and have families all the time), but I feel that it adds a different "color" to the relationship.
Most of my closest (male) friends are ones that I don't have a "power dynamic" with. We usually have drastically different vocations, and don't really need each other. We generally have common interests (I suggest that volunteer work is a great thing), but find each other's company enriching and interesting.
Making friends is easy, keeping friends and growing the relationships are difficult. I am mostly introverted but have periods of extreme extroversion. I'm 34 but all of my best friends have passed away from various accidents over the past decade.
I feel like a shell of my former self where all I do or have a desire to do is work. The only person I consider my friend is my former boss who, after losing his wife to ALS, I did everything I could to be there and support him because he took a chance on me by offering me a job that ultimately has led to a great career in the tech field.
I've noticed my personality has slipped away, I no longer have hobbies or anything of real passion in my life anymore and thus there's nothing I have to offer another person in a relationship.
It's incredibly lonely and a poor place to be yet I really don't know how to escape it. Most other dudes my age have families or many of them only care to go out to breweries which I don't enjoy.
There's still a bit of hope deep down that all isn't over yet and a ray of sunshine can still propagate itself somewhere, sometime.
> there's nothing I have to offer another person in a relationship.
I think that the most valuable (and appreciated) thing you have to offer are your atttentive ears and your time. That's what many people are looking for in a true, deep friendship.
The real frienship isn't about super-intresting hobbies or flashy personality but really basic things like listening each other, supporting i small or large difficulties etc.
First, let me say this sounds like the first stages of depression. It is VERY difficult to break out of yourself because by this point or a bit further; you start having trouble figuring out why you do anything, so you stop doing almost everything. Once you reach that point, it is very rare to be able to self-diagnose and get on a path to recovery.
This was me a few years ago. At some point, I stopped being authentic and sharing my experience with others (just saying what I was feeling, dis/liked, wanted/didn't want, etc).
There is likely an emotional block or a few in your past that you feel you shouldn't/can't/won't talk about to others (because it will bother them).
"Most other dudes my age have families or many of them only care to go out to breweries which I don't enjoy." <- this is a symptom of an emotional block.
You are saying No to yourself without considering options or asking people for ideas. There are an unlimited number of ways to adjust those situations to work.
This has been true in my personal life since I was about 13, but when it happened in my professional life too, I became very isolated and it wasn't until I read waaaay too much psychology that I started understanding that other people have had the same feelings (nothing I felt/feel is unique; what makes me unique is the combinations of those things) and then telling people bits of it, then more.
To continue that last two weeks ago I forced myself to cry for the first time since I was around 13. Then on Friday, I wanted to cry in the car during a sad song and I let myself. Then Sunday, I felt my sadness damn crumble and I was really sad about random things for a few hours.
It's a long process, but being able to feel sad again will let me WANT help from other people again and WANT to connect with them. It will let me feel lonely, which will motivate me to go find people to be around. Soon, this process will lead to more friends.
In many ways we've forgotten how to be human (as a culture) which actively prevents from connecting with other people in one way or another. I'm on an active journey to learn all the things I didn't learn as a child and I'm still pretty lonely, only one close friend, but I've already gotten past feeling empty inside and not interested in doing things.
Make two lists. One, an activities list. Every time you hear something fun to do, put it on the list. Eventually, after a couple years, you'll have nearly everything. If it's on the cheap side it's a good sign, although expensive things can be fun too.
The second list, is a content consumption list. Basically, building a twitter, but without the timeline. Write down categories you like, and people you like, and get a YouTube subscription so you don't have to have adds. After around 2 years, you should be rarely adding people & content to the list.
My advice: have a separate categories for movies to watch & tv shows to watch & only do so with friends & loved ones. Never watch tv or movies by yourself, would be my advice.
Sorry to hear that. Recommend you try an activity that involves physical activity and other people. Kayaking, capoeira, rock climbing, whatever feels interesting to you.
> I was trapped in a ‘normal’ mode of conversation - making small talk, being inoffensive, feeling aversion to being weird, respecting where I thought other people’s boundaries were.
If you want something else, you gotta let others know somehow! Everyone's life is different and has differently shaped spaces for relationships, interaction, etc. It's very common for people to be open to growing closer to some of their social circle, but be unsure about who to focus on. It can be you if you simply indicate you are also interested!
On the other hand, I think this is more wrong than right:
> A point I’ve made throughout is that this is a skill.
Calling "Growing closer" a skill suggests it is a craft that 'you should' practice - but it's not. Growing closer requires work and attention and you will get better at it over time - but to think of it as a skill "you are doing" instead of a mutual process that advances only at the shared pace you are getting into manipulation. "Growing closer" is measured by the combined 'distance' by which you and the other person have adjusted your lives to be closer to one another.
Maybe OP means that having deep and vulnerable conversations is a skill - and THAT I would agree with, but it has nothing to do with growing closer! You can have deep conversations with strangers (in fact it's often easier to have them with strangers).
People who discover the power of intimacy in our atomized world risk accidentally leading others to believe they want a deeper relationship than they have the capacity to maintain.
Every few years I get this urge to “start over” somewhere new where I’m going to turn everything about my life around. Whenever I’ve tried to make friends or be social, it seems to fall into this almost cyclical pattern.
I’ll find a group of people who hang out and join that. Tend to make pretty good inroads early, and people seem to like me.
Then over time the group slowly starts to fracture into “cliques” none of which I eventually fall into. It starts to feel at some point that I’m no more than a court jester, there to make opportune jokes to entertain the other cliques. People care less about what I have to say and I guess any eccentricities about me that intrigue people get old quick.
Sooner or later there’s a big drama caused by some petty disagreement and the group fractures along those cliques. Sometimes reconciliation is tried, but by that point no one’s schedules line up, or half the people are always sick, etc.
The number of people I have tried to be friends with, but who not treated me like one -- I think it sounds catchy, but is not true at all, at least in my circles.
We often don't consider the impact our current age has on our experience.
Making close friends is easier the younger we are. When we are young we have fewer responsibilities, and we have fewer hangups.
As we get older, we have old life experiences which stand out and leave lasting behavioral impacts. Plus, we have real and immediate responsibilities which have priority - but which we may not announce all the time. The other party may not know the circumstances; they merely don't get especially magnetic interactions from us.
My caution to those of us who are analytical and want to understand how life works is that we do not discount the significance of age and circumstance on matters of friendship and human connection.
Many people make close friends at university, even without intentionally doing so. There's a common, yet erroneous, pattern of thinking in many "successful" people where they attribute their actions to their success without considering that they may have still been successful had they chosen different actions. In this case, the author may have still formed closed friendships had they not chosen to do so intentionally, as many other students do. The only way to really know would be to have the author clone themselves twice and have each clone go through school with one intentionally seeking out close friends and the other not.
Perhaps I'm an outlier, but having to sit around making small talk and sharing personal life experiences with a like-minded cohort is literally a nightmare scenario for me. On the other hand, I love working with people on collaborative effort-intensive projects, working toward shared goals and so on (but I don't have much interest in getting involved in their personal or family lives afterwards). Also, I may be unusual in that I don't suffer from loneliness, there's always something interesting to get involved in or work on. Is this a very uncommon type, I wonder?
Additionally, financial restrictions on activities are a reality for many people these days, ruling out a large number of extracurricular activities that would be fun and interesting to share with others. When one's economic future is on the line, things like friendships become luxuries that might have to fall by the wayside, as people have to move in search of employment, and budgets get tighter. People in a college environment are often not under such immediate pressures.
I'm 23 and have lived most of my life without having close friends. I'd say I'm very extroverted and can strike up engaging conversations with most people I meet. I'm easy going and don't really have a fear of talking to new people.
The problem is that I end up with dozens of friends that I regularly have good banter with, but it just never feels like one of those "best friend" or "close friend" situationships. Most of my own problems or vulnerabilities are dealt with by myself, internally, perhaps with some advice from others if I discuss it. It feels like you need to lean on people emotionally in order to actually become closer.
What OP has mentioned does actually work and I have used some similar approaches, without knowing it, to improve my friendships. But you also need to attach a high value to regular conversation and communications. If you don't keep in contact on a regular basis, the friendship will diminish, regardless of the closeness.
For those who have had close friends in their late teens to mid 20s, do you still have close friends after a significant life event like getting a job, getting married, moving to a new city, having a baby, etc?
I relate with the author of this article in my 20s, but cannot relate at all in my 30s because my life has significantly changed (for the better).
Nope. I had plenty of close friends through my mid-20s, but now at 42, after moving away to another state, I still believe we have enough accumulated trust and love that I'd give those people just about about anything, and feel comfortable sharing anything, and I'm reasonably sure they all feel the same way, but we haven't kept in regular contact. I'm not a phone conversation person and never have been, and quit all social media years ago to preserve my sanity. Regular visits aren't feasible because of the distance and the visits I can manage are ones in which I prioritize seeing my family over anyone else.
I don't have any serious complaints. I'm not lonely and people aren't super-important to me. I've got my wife and my cats and that's enough. I have no idea what I'd do today to make new friends that would ever be anywhere near what my old friends were. Those were people I saw day-in and day-out for years since we were in school together, we shared major life events and formative experiences that can't ever be repeated, and spent a level of time together that simply isn't feasible for so many reasons, from having a full-time job to having to prioritize time with my wife to no longer having the capacity and energy to go out and stay up late on any kind of regular basis.
Again, I have no complaints, but I don't see how it's realistic or possible in most cases to ever make friends as an adult that are as close as the friends you make and maintain throughout childhood and teenage years, other than a life partner or partners you actually live with.
No, but a better answer is probably that the relationships are different. As with most HN advice it's completely contextual.
Close friends from before the transitionary period are still people I can connect with to a large extent. Not all are people I'd now want to spend a lot of time with because time is so limited.
Making new close friends is something I've somewhat given up on based on the fact that I've moved so far away, now have had to prioritize work and family, etc. I suspect there will be fleeting opportunities as the kids create introductions and I perhaps get more time for hobbies/volunteering.
I think things are very dependent on circumstances. People commenting and giving advice only have knowledge of X circumstances, but there are really Y or X number of them out there. This means that I get left feeling like I'm doing something wrong, missing out, etc. based on how others describe life. Anxiety and other mental challenges affect how I feel too. Things aren't that bad when I actually take a big step back and think about life though.
Wait, you're saying you can't relate anymore because you don't have close friends anymore and don't want any? Or because you have close friends naturally so don't need to analyze how to do it?
I am older than my 20s, and have moved jobs and cities a couple times, but I don't have a spouse or kids. I still have some close friends (including one or two i've had since my 20s and one or two i've met subsequently), but would personally like more and closer. I'm not sure if that answers your questions!
My guess is a lot of people in our particular society in the
USA stop having close friends when they have a spouse and kids... but I don't this this is true in all places and times, and I personally suspect it's not very healthy and people would be doing so much better in many ways, including unexpected ones in ways people don't realize would be affected by this, if they had more non-family intimacy. But whatever works!
Nope. I had my closest friendships in high school and college. I haven't talked to any of those people in 30+ years (nor have any of them reached out to me). Careers, relocations, families happened. Life has forks like this where paths separate and never rejoin.
And no, I didn't make new friends in the same way. Being young with a lot of time and no responsibilities doesn't ever come back.
I've kept 3 very close friends (they don't know each other), and now we live in 3 different continents. One I met in my teens, another in my early twenties, and another when I was almost 30. We're all almost 40 now and keep daily contact via text and have a call once every 2 months or so. They're the people I ask advice to and share good and bad news.
There's no secret to it, we're just on eachother's minds and ping one another frequently.
For me the only close friends I have kept through my 20's and many life-changing events are ones I made in high school, and mostly because of Discord. Being able to virtually hang out has made it possible for me to maintain relationships after a move which I wouldn't have been able to keep up before.
Friends become harder to make (mostly for men) as you get older and have children. It simply takes more effort and you'll have less time, but having friends that you see regularly is probably more important when you are 40+. It's worth the effort and easier to systemize.
Following up & reaching out can be a big blocker. I just decided that I'm always the one to reach out and I even built myself an Airtable tracker to do this.
Vulnerability is trending up (for lack of a better description). Writing this post was vulnerable and it's #1 on HN. Finding the right way to open up, make it interesting and not seem needy is an very valuable skill.
Excellent article, but don't make having close friends part of your main goal. Once you are comfortable with who you are, do things on your own, work on new hobbies and interests, then you will attract the right people. Being confident and positive are a people magnet.
Screw vulnerability. Of course, I have problems like everyone else. But I have given each one a lot of thought and decided what's the best thing I can do right now, or that there is nothing further than I can do. I don't really need advice or practical help, it's a matter of me allocating my limited energy and willpower. On giving side, there is also so much I can offer to someone outside my immediate family. And the last thing I want to do is to pay MORE attention to downsides of my life by talking about them to others.
What I really wish I could have is camaraderie in personal growth, which for some reason seems to be impossible in Silicon Valley. For example, I have been taking photography classes, but when I ask other students if they want to go on a hike, shoot pictures together and improve our technique, nobody is ever interested. I can understand that women might think I am hitting on them, even after I mentioned I am married and have kids, but not even old guys? I don't know if it's something about my appearance or mannerisms or if people only live through organized events and have no interest in just hanging out with others based on mutual interests. Maybe they also outsource their vulnerabilities to professional therapy? :-)
Now of course nothing is black and white. Being able to give someone an unfiltered account of one's day is a testament of quality of the relationship and reassurance that if I faced a truly overwhelming disaster in future I might have some help handling it. But overall, I would rather expand my life than dwell on aspects of it that either can not be changed or are already being worked on.
I wonder if "Dividera et Impera" has something to do with workplace relationships and the society at large? In autocratic systems it is not in the interests of the ruling class that people would be friends with each other.
This is way too complicated. All you have do is show up to the same place regularly to places where other people also show up regularly. School, work, dog park, gym, etc.
That's quite obviously not true, because almost everyone shows up to places regularly, and some people fail to make friends. Unless you assume that all the people who are having trouble making friends are jobless independently-wealthy agoraphobic shut-ins.
Showing up isn't enough. You have to engage with people, and push past mundane surface-level topics of conversation. And after that, you have to follow up and schedule time outside of whatever place/activity where you met.
I know plenty of people who go to work or a gym or whatever every day, but don't come away from it with close friendships.
I agree with this. From my experience, people who feel lonely (and feel saddened by that) tend to become overly worried about what others think of them and obsessed on making an impression. That usually leads to them becoming an echo chamber of themselves and starting to act "artificially", which is noticed by others as not being authentic.
I'd say that sharing, which arises from mutual interest, is the cornerstone. So being in places where people authentically share mutual interests and cooperate is a great place to make friends. Sports associations (team sports, climbing, hiking, with the added bonus of physical activity being awesome for mental health) community centers with activities (chess, musical groups, dancing)...
I think so. Seems so many people want a "how to" on every aspect of their lives. Friendship should not be something you try to design or have a strategy for, I can think of nothing that would drive me away faster.
Friendship happens, if through shared experience, interest or just chance. True friendship doesn't happen because you woke up one morning and "Make a Friend" was at the top of your todo list for the day.
Showing up definitely helps but in my experience the transition from acquaintance to friend comes through a bonding moment where there was an emotional connection - either struggling through or achieving something together or vulnerability from one or both of you.
There are a lot of bad things about drugs and alcohol but one of the reasons I like them is they tend to enable/accelerate these moments.
[+] [-] Xcelerate|3 years ago|reply
I had a bit of a revelation when I left my last job. There were very few comments from coworkers when I left. I don’t think I was disliked (hopefully?), but I don’t think anyone really considered me their friend either. Looking back I think I came across as somewhat of a NPC to coworkers. I preferred to eat lunch by myself and I only discussed the business topic at hand during meetings unless someone else brought up a personal discussion.
I wouldn’t mind to start more personal discussions, but I’m always concerned it might come across the wrong way, so the furthest I seem to get is “how was your weekend?”
[+] [-] bgroat|3 years ago|reply
Something that's hard for me to explain is that "making friends is so hard it's easy"
What I mean by that is, social anxiety is so high, population-level self-absorption is so high, people are so lonely... that for the most part if you just approach someone and behave as if you're friends... they'll go for it.
There's so much DEMAND for friends, that people will gobble up your supply if you offer it (so long as you're not a total monster)
[+] [-] Workaccount2|3 years ago|reply
Sometime around 30 it hit me like a swinging log to my introverted face that the reason I felt that way was because that's how I felt when people reached out to me.
It really shook my perspective to realize that many people like having someone reaching out to them and they are not annoyed by it.
[+] [-] pessimizer|3 years ago|reply
https://scribe.citizen4.eu/your-friends-have-more-friends-th...
Math makes this part of the human condition. I honestly think that the solution for the shy (like you and I) is to value the relationships that these extroverts offer. At least a couple of the extroverts will think you're wonderful, and the other people that they will accidentally bring into your life through their gregariousness will cover the range from extreme introvert to extreme extrovert and everything in between. You will be meeting those introverts through a person who they trust, which is your best opportunity for successfully connecting with other shy people.
The only caveats are that you can't focus on one extrovert; get to know more than one, they're happy to talk. Focusing your explorations on one extrovert puts too much burden on the extrovert, and they want to share their time with a lot of people. The second caveat is to not let the extrovert take advantage of you, because a lot of extroverts are con-men/sales-types.
edit: 97% of the good friends I have had in my adult life were the result of a single extrovert talking to me out of the blue in my high school cafeteria. Through her, I met my first real girlfriend, and met two of the members of the band I'd end up singing in and touring with in my 20s. Still friends 30 years later, so I guess she liked me.
[+] [-] AntoniusBlock|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JumpCrisscross|3 years ago|reply
Can't remember who said this to me, but it stuck: nobody remembers congratulatory calls for a new job. But you never forget each person who reached out when you were fired or let go.
It's fun but ephemeral to celebrate. It hurts to share pain, but it’s rewarding. When I find people my gut wants to share burdens with, I listen: they became close friends.
[+] [-] kelnos|3 years ago|reply
Not a social expert here, but that isn't a bad start! Sure, it's a bit small-talk-y, but it can open up more interesting conversation topics. Assuming the person you're talking to give you more than just "oh, it was fine", anyway.
You can also modify it to "did you do anything interesting over the weekend?" And then if they say something specific, you can follow up with deeper questions about what they tell you they did, and go from there.
I get that it's hard, though. I considered myself an "extroverted introvert" (and even an "introverted extrovert", on my more socially-energetic days), though pandemic isolation has weakened the extrovert part. I often feel like asking deeper follow-up questions is intrusive and somehow bothersome, but I think the first step is to just make yourself not care, and ask anyway. Listen to how the person responds, and you should be able to get an idea if they do want to talk more about it, or if they'd rather not. If not, you can slow down and disengage. But if they do, then that's a good sign to continue.
[+] [-] nicbou|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nier|3 years ago|reply
One of the first search results reads:
«[…] slang used by millenials to denote people who act as if they are being told by someone to act in a specific manner, although that may not be the case. Using this abbreviation, the commentator or the creator is poking fun at the other person for acting in a certain manner.»
[+] [-] replwoacause|3 years ago|reply
-NPC Person
[+] [-] Foivos|3 years ago|reply
Probably, they thought that you did not like them.
[+] [-] andreyk|3 years ago|reply
As someone who has a fair number of close friends, I think this is a good post with lots of solid advice. And it's written well! Personally I've been lucky to just naturally meet and form my best friends over time, but I definitely think taking initiative and following up are important to maintaining a close friendship.
A general point in this post I also like is that making and keeping close friends may require work and energy, rather than being something that life just throws your way. I intentionally try to periodically message friends, come out to places they live, just generally keep in touch; as one gets older people move about and it's harder to maintain your closest friendships, but it is possible!
Last comment: this is a very pragmatic and analytical post with a lot of discussions of things you can do, and not much discussion of how you should feel. I'd add this - just CARE. Appreciate the people in your life and let that appreciation guide you.
[+] [-] lordnacho|3 years ago|reply
I was actually thinking about it today. Here's an awkward truth about friendships that everyone needs to get comfortable with: often one of you is more interested in the relationship than the other. You know what I mean. For instance, I was invited to a wedding a few weeks ago. It never occurred to me to write to this buddy in many years, I didn't invite him to my wedding, but he invited me to his. I had a great time, we caught up and had a good talk. The same has happened the other way round, I'm sure. People I like a lot and contact, but they don't contact me. Yet when we hang out, everyone has a good time.
If you act weird about these relationships, you lose them. You don't want to do that, because marginal relationships are maybe the most rewarding to maintain, IME. People doing different things to you in different places bring a lot more into your mix than the ones you see every day. There also tend to be many of these relationship-seeds, so your close friends will grow from some of them.
[+] [-] standardUser|3 years ago|reply
My trick is, I cheat. I'm happily single, live alone and have no children. That gives me the luxury of doing the heavy lifting in my friendships. I travel a lot and most of those trips are to stay with friends in their homes or to meet them at a third destination. That's been the most effective way to stay very close to my friends, as well as to become close to their spouses and kids. I understand most people can't do this because of their own family obligations. But maybe it's something people with families could do just once or twice a year to visit people important to them?
Beyond that, I'm usually the one to start group chats or send memes on social media or schedule video chats. Sometimes it's a chore, but usually it's effortless for me. And the close friends I've maintained to this point are with people who are usually very eager and able to stay in touch on their end. The others have fell by the wayside over the years. And some I have consciously excluded from my life when I realized they were bad friends.
I'd also add that, as a man, I find that women make better friends then men, especially past our 20's, and I'd encourage all men to consider finding and building more non-romantic relationships with women.
[+] [-] shepherdjerred|3 years ago|reply
I completely agree; I've always preferred being friends with women, but in my opinion it's not easy to do.
Things sometimes get complicated quickly if there's attraction on either side which often happens to at least one side if you're close friends. Even without romantic feelings, things get weird/awkward if either party is in a relationship or married.
[+] [-] mikesabat|3 years ago|reply
A few months ago I organized a Dad's Drinks at a local bar. I walked there with a neighbor and realized that on every block there was at least one dad chilling in his house that wanted to come out. Having kids builds a habit to stay home, but isn't always a necessity - especially once the kids are 3 years old or older.
[+] [-] tinglymintyfrsh|3 years ago|reply
I'm old(er) mid-40's, single, no kids, and never married. I don't have much family or close friends. Hookup culture is de rigueur but it doesn't interest me. Where I'm at, there isn't a context to meet people and most random people in public around keep to themselves and treat me like I'm invisible. I do volunteering but that also doesn't go anywhere.
If you have to constantly take the social initiative, then you're carrying the relationship. Sometimes absence is better. Instead of dwelling on loneliness or self-pity, keeping productively busy seems a better alternative.
I'd like to have a family and kids, but an inability to find and make friends precludes that. The thought of getting old alone, having no one to check-in on me, no one to bury me, no one to care that I'm gone, and no one at a funeral seems depressing. I don't see how I won't end up in a "potter's field" somewhere.
[+] [-] ChrisMarshallNY|3 years ago|reply
I'm a bit "spectrumish." I'd make a great hermit. I don't really find a need to have close relationships.
One thing that I've found in any relationship, is that a "power dynamic" changes things a lot. Most romantic or working relationships have a "power dynamic," where one party has some kind of leverage over the other, or that one party gets more from the the relationship, than the other.
This isn't necessarily bad (after all, we get married and have families all the time), but I feel that it adds a different "color" to the relationship.
Most of my closest (male) friends are ones that I don't have a "power dynamic" with. We usually have drastically different vocations, and don't really need each other. We generally have common interests (I suggest that volunteer work is a great thing), but find each other's company enriching and interesting.
[+] [-] xxEightyxx|3 years ago|reply
I feel like a shell of my former self where all I do or have a desire to do is work. The only person I consider my friend is my former boss who, after losing his wife to ALS, I did everything I could to be there and support him because he took a chance on me by offering me a job that ultimately has led to a great career in the tech field.
I've noticed my personality has slipped away, I no longer have hobbies or anything of real passion in my life anymore and thus there's nothing I have to offer another person in a relationship.
It's incredibly lonely and a poor place to be yet I really don't know how to escape it. Most other dudes my age have families or many of them only care to go out to breweries which I don't enjoy.
There's still a bit of hope deep down that all isn't over yet and a ray of sunshine can still propagate itself somewhere, sometime.
[+] [-] ArekDymalski|3 years ago|reply
I think that the most valuable (and appreciated) thing you have to offer are your atttentive ears and your time. That's what many people are looking for in a true, deep friendship.
The real frienship isn't about super-intresting hobbies or flashy personality but really basic things like listening each other, supporting i small or large difficulties etc.
[+] [-] solarmist|3 years ago|reply
This was me a few years ago. At some point, I stopped being authentic and sharing my experience with others (just saying what I was feeling, dis/liked, wanted/didn't want, etc).
There is likely an emotional block or a few in your past that you feel you shouldn't/can't/won't talk about to others (because it will bother them).
"Most other dudes my age have families or many of them only care to go out to breweries which I don't enjoy." <- this is a symptom of an emotional block.
You are saying No to yourself without considering options or asking people for ideas. There are an unlimited number of ways to adjust those situations to work.
This has been true in my personal life since I was about 13, but when it happened in my professional life too, I became very isolated and it wasn't until I read waaaay too much psychology that I started understanding that other people have had the same feelings (nothing I felt/feel is unique; what makes me unique is the combinations of those things) and then telling people bits of it, then more.
To continue that last two weeks ago I forced myself to cry for the first time since I was around 13. Then on Friday, I wanted to cry in the car during a sad song and I let myself. Then Sunday, I felt my sadness damn crumble and I was really sad about random things for a few hours.
It's a long process, but being able to feel sad again will let me WANT help from other people again and WANT to connect with them. It will let me feel lonely, which will motivate me to go find people to be around. Soon, this process will lead to more friends.
In many ways we've forgotten how to be human (as a culture) which actively prevents from connecting with other people in one way or another. I'm on an active journey to learn all the things I didn't learn as a child and I'm still pretty lonely, only one close friend, but I've already gotten past feeling empty inside and not interested in doing things.
[+] [-] g4e2t|3 years ago|reply
The second list, is a content consumption list. Basically, building a twitter, but without the timeline. Write down categories you like, and people you like, and get a YouTube subscription so you don't have to have adds. After around 2 years, you should be rarely adding people & content to the list.
My advice: have a separate categories for movies to watch & tv shows to watch & only do so with friends & loved ones. Never watch tv or movies by yourself, would be my advice.
I understand loneliness. It can be a sad journey.
[+] [-] hermitcrab|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] catmanjan|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] aeturnum|3 years ago|reply
> I was trapped in a ‘normal’ mode of conversation - making small talk, being inoffensive, feeling aversion to being weird, respecting where I thought other people’s boundaries were.
If you want something else, you gotta let others know somehow! Everyone's life is different and has differently shaped spaces for relationships, interaction, etc. It's very common for people to be open to growing closer to some of their social circle, but be unsure about who to focus on. It can be you if you simply indicate you are also interested!
On the other hand, I think this is more wrong than right:
> A point I’ve made throughout is that this is a skill.
Calling "Growing closer" a skill suggests it is a craft that 'you should' practice - but it's not. Growing closer requires work and attention and you will get better at it over time - but to think of it as a skill "you are doing" instead of a mutual process that advances only at the shared pace you are getting into manipulation. "Growing closer" is measured by the combined 'distance' by which you and the other person have adjusted your lives to be closer to one another.
Maybe OP means that having deep and vulnerable conversations is a skill - and THAT I would agree with, but it has nothing to do with growing closer! You can have deep conversations with strangers (in fact it's often easier to have them with strangers).
People who discover the power of intimacy in our atomized world risk accidentally leading others to believe they want a deeper relationship than they have the capacity to maintain.
[+] [-] the_only_law|3 years ago|reply
I’ll find a group of people who hang out and join that. Tend to make pretty good inroads early, and people seem to like me.
Then over time the group slowly starts to fracture into “cliques” none of which I eventually fall into. It starts to feel at some point that I’m no more than a court jester, there to make opportune jokes to entertain the other cliques. People care less about what I have to say and I guess any eccentricities about me that intrigue people get old quick.
Sooner or later there’s a big drama caused by some petty disagreement and the group fractures along those cliques. Sometimes reconciliation is tried, but by that point no one’s schedules line up, or half the people are always sick, etc.
[+] [-] timoth3y|3 years ago|reply
― Zig Ziglar
[+] [-] galaxyLogic|3 years ago|reply
- Beatles
[+] [-] zelphirkalt|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] michaelteter|3 years ago|reply
Making close friends is easier the younger we are. When we are young we have fewer responsibilities, and we have fewer hangups.
As we get older, we have old life experiences which stand out and leave lasting behavioral impacts. Plus, we have real and immediate responsibilities which have priority - but which we may not announce all the time. The other party may not know the circumstances; they merely don't get especially magnetic interactions from us.
My caution to those of us who are analytical and want to understand how life works is that we do not discount the significance of age and circumstance on matters of friendship and human connection.
Minor edits for clarity :)
[+] [-] halpmeh|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] photochemsyn|3 years ago|reply
Additionally, financial restrictions on activities are a reality for many people these days, ruling out a large number of extracurricular activities that would be fun and interesting to share with others. When one's economic future is on the line, things like friendships become luxuries that might have to fall by the wayside, as people have to move in search of employment, and budgets get tighter. People in a college environment are often not under such immediate pressures.
[+] [-] great_reversal|3 years ago|reply
The problem is that I end up with dozens of friends that I regularly have good banter with, but it just never feels like one of those "best friend" or "close friend" situationships. Most of my own problems or vulnerabilities are dealt with by myself, internally, perhaps with some advice from others if I discuss it. It feels like you need to lean on people emotionally in order to actually become closer.
What OP has mentioned does actually work and I have used some similar approaches, without knowing it, to improve my friendships. But you also need to attach a high value to regular conversation and communications. If you don't keep in contact on a regular basis, the friendship will diminish, regardless of the closeness.
[+] [-] thenerdhead|3 years ago|reply
For those who have had close friends in their late teens to mid 20s, do you still have close friends after a significant life event like getting a job, getting married, moving to a new city, having a baby, etc?
I relate with the author of this article in my 20s, but cannot relate at all in my 30s because my life has significantly changed (for the better).
[+] [-] nonameiguess|3 years ago|reply
I don't have any serious complaints. I'm not lonely and people aren't super-important to me. I've got my wife and my cats and that's enough. I have no idea what I'd do today to make new friends that would ever be anywhere near what my old friends were. Those were people I saw day-in and day-out for years since we were in school together, we shared major life events and formative experiences that can't ever be repeated, and spent a level of time together that simply isn't feasible for so many reasons, from having a full-time job to having to prioritize time with my wife to no longer having the capacity and energy to go out and stay up late on any kind of regular basis.
Again, I have no complaints, but I don't see how it's realistic or possible in most cases to ever make friends as an adult that are as close as the friends you make and maintain throughout childhood and teenage years, other than a life partner or partners you actually live with.
[+] [-] zerkten|3 years ago|reply
Close friends from before the transitionary period are still people I can connect with to a large extent. Not all are people I'd now want to spend a lot of time with because time is so limited.
Making new close friends is something I've somewhat given up on based on the fact that I've moved so far away, now have had to prioritize work and family, etc. I suspect there will be fleeting opportunities as the kids create introductions and I perhaps get more time for hobbies/volunteering.
I think things are very dependent on circumstances. People commenting and giving advice only have knowledge of X circumstances, but there are really Y or X number of them out there. This means that I get left feeling like I'm doing something wrong, missing out, etc. based on how others describe life. Anxiety and other mental challenges affect how I feel too. Things aren't that bad when I actually take a big step back and think about life though.
[+] [-] jrochkind1|3 years ago|reply
I am older than my 20s, and have moved jobs and cities a couple times, but I don't have a spouse or kids. I still have some close friends (including one or two i've had since my 20s and one or two i've met subsequently), but would personally like more and closer. I'm not sure if that answers your questions!
My guess is a lot of people in our particular society in the USA stop having close friends when they have a spouse and kids... but I don't this this is true in all places and times, and I personally suspect it's not very healthy and people would be doing so much better in many ways, including unexpected ones in ways people don't realize would be affected by this, if they had more non-family intimacy. But whatever works!
[+] [-] SoftTalker|3 years ago|reply
And no, I didn't make new friends in the same way. Being young with a lot of time and no responsibilities doesn't ever come back.
[+] [-] sabellito|3 years ago|reply
There's no secret to it, we're just on eachother's minds and ping one another frequently.
[+] [-] inkcapmushroom|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mikesabat|3 years ago|reply
Friends become harder to make (mostly for men) as you get older and have children. It simply takes more effort and you'll have less time, but having friends that you see regularly is probably more important when you are 40+. It's worth the effort and easier to systemize.
Following up & reaching out can be a big blocker. I just decided that I'm always the one to reach out and I even built myself an Airtable tracker to do this.
Vulnerability is trending up (for lack of a better description). Writing this post was vulnerable and it's #1 on HN. Finding the right way to open up, make it interesting and not seem needy is an very valuable skill.
[+] [-] sfusato|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cat_plus_plus|3 years ago|reply
What I really wish I could have is camaraderie in personal growth, which for some reason seems to be impossible in Silicon Valley. For example, I have been taking photography classes, but when I ask other students if they want to go on a hike, shoot pictures together and improve our technique, nobody is ever interested. I can understand that women might think I am hitting on them, even after I mentioned I am married and have kids, but not even old guys? I don't know if it's something about my appearance or mannerisms or if people only live through organized events and have no interest in just hanging out with others based on mutual interests. Maybe they also outsource their vulnerabilities to professional therapy? :-)
Now of course nothing is black and white. Being able to give someone an unfiltered account of one's day is a testament of quality of the relationship and reassurance that if I faced a truly overwhelming disaster in future I might have some help handling it. But overall, I would rather expand my life than dwell on aspects of it that either can not be changed or are already being worked on.
[+] [-] galaxyLogic|3 years ago|reply
Friendship is not too far off from unionizing.
[+] [-] viburnum|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pessimizer|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kelnos|3 years ago|reply
I know plenty of people who go to work or a gym or whatever every day, but don't come away from it with close friendships.
[+] [-] wpwpwpw|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dragonsky67|3 years ago|reply
Friendship happens, if through shared experience, interest or just chance. True friendship doesn't happen because you woke up one morning and "Make a Friend" was at the top of your todo list for the day.
[+] [-] batiudrami|3 years ago|reply
There are a lot of bad things about drugs and alcohol but one of the reasons I like them is they tend to enable/accelerate these moments.