How much do you get paid to fill out the application?
I love the idea that you're "edgy" and thinking outside the box, but honestly, have you really thought your application process through?
As an ugly introverted nerd who still has trouble getting a date, but builds killer software apps and loves doing it, the last thing I ever want to do is spend multiple days in order to enter your beauty contest.
So you'll end up choosing the prettiest people who present the best and write the prettiest code regardless of how important or influential it is.
You'd just be better off bringing everyone in for the first week of the class. By the end of that week, you'd have a much better idea of who would succeed in your program than your seemingly random method of choice.
I've written lots of cool stuff and would love to learn Ruby in what appears to be a great program like yours, but I'm just not hungry enough to subject myself to more superficial rejection. There are already plenty of women around for that.
I think you are making a lot of assumptions about what they are going to be using the info for, particularly the video section. They pretty explicitly state they want to hear your communication skills (those matter) / passion (most people would argue that matters too). You go from them telling you that to "So you'll end up choosing the prettiest people..."
You also have the "... who present the best and write the prettiest code regardless of how important or influential it is." Which is less crazy, because they do say that they want people who write clean code (who doesn't?). But they are also asking for your resume, so I don't think that saying "regardless of how important or influential it is" is fair, either.
It sounds like you've been through a lot of rejection in your life, and I really do sympathize, and understand what that can do to you. But you've gotten to the point where you're lashing out at these guys as though they've already rejected you, way before it's gotten to the stage where they could have even thought about rejecting you. It's not fair to them, and it's not fair to yourself. It comes off as incredibly aggressive, and it creates a really huge barrier before the conversation has even started.
We're engineers -- not pretty people. We don't care what your face looks like, but watching you explain who you are and what you're good at can give great insight into your personality.
The application is more about whether you feel like a good fit for the team than it is your programming skills. It doesn't mean "do you look good", it doesn't mean "is your English great," and it doesn't mean "Does this look like I 'expect' a programmer to look?"
We're trying to find out "is this a person I want to spend every day of my career with?"
We'd LOVE to bring everyone out for one of our in-person sessions, but are expecting a thousand applications for our 24 spots. Getting all those people in one place would be a massive undertaking and a huge waste of time for the 976 who aren't selected.
For a job application I can see how the essays, videos, etc. could be considered onerous, but from the looks of it this is more like a _scholarship_ application than a job application, and five months of paid training in a work environment is a pretty significant scholarship. In that light, it doesn't seem excessive at all: of course you have to write essays, of course you have to make a short presentation; these are run-of-the-mill requirements for many (not to mention much smaller) scholarship grants.
Ask around your work place and find some of the grey beards that got their start as programmers in the early 90s.
You'll find quite a few that didn't study programming or CS in school, but got their start via company training programs in COBOL, RPG, or Visual Basic in the late 80s and early 90s.
This was back when most universities didn't have a CS Program and programming was just a skill in high demand (much like today).
Some of these folks went on to management, system admin work, or kept pursuing the craft and still work side by side with us today.
So what Hungry Academy is doing isn't completely new, but it's a new idea with a fresh face.
I've always disliked the term "hungry," usually it seems to be meant literally, ie. "we know you currently can't afford to eat, and we're going to exploit your weak position mercilessly."
Not to say this is necessarily what's going to happen here of course, but be careful boys and girls.
LivingSocial started with the name "HungryMachine" and one of the company's core values is "Live Hungry" -- that's the inspiration.
We don't want to exploit anyone, hah. In fact, it's quite the opposite -- we want to bring more people into this ridiculously bountiful world of software development.
Is it just me, or is it just the cultural difference (I am from germany, where we - god be blessed - have laws against these kind of hours)- but if I am expected to work 70h+/week in this thing, I belive, the same would be expected if anyone gets that job.
Is it just me, or is it just the cultural difference (I am from germany, where we - god be blessed - have laws against these kind of hours)
IANAGerman but I lived there for a bit under a year. Don't the Bundeswehr(Army) and some of the big German companies offer a salary during the B.Sc.+M.Sc.in exchange for going to work for them for 10 years? Because this offer seems superior to me.
Actually a better comparision would be an Ausbildung(Apprenticeship). The company would have to really be exploiting them for it not to be better than an Ausbildung.
And by comparision with the apprenticeship system/vocational education system anywhere else, the German system is awesome. I have successfully convinced myself that this is an awesome opportunity and would apply if I was in a situation visa wise to do so.
That's fair. We wanted to make sure people know this isn't just "show up at 9, leave at 5." There are significant outside of the workday tasks like hacking on projects, reading books, meeting with colleagues, and teaching Ruby to kids.
But I'm not chaining anyone to a desk for 70 hours because _I_ don't want to live that way, either.
Give me something that is _fun_ and/or _interesting_ and I'm happily spending a big amount of time on it - and in fact, I did that in Germany as well, laws or not.
I'm not sure I'd sign something that says "You're required to put in these hours".
The compensation is completely open - I don't know if these people are payed as junior developers or trainees/interns etc.. - I guess that factors into the equation.
My gripe: I'd expect these 24 people to work on actual products (otherwise I'd question the teaching/mentoring method), so to me it seems the company is getting a temporary team, possibly for cheap.
If I'd be younger, w/o a significant other and - well - applicable (I assume this is for US residents only) I'd apply anyway, though...
They're being paid. I think the slavery charge is a bit much.
Plus, you don't know the program structure. That may include homework/group sort of stuff in addition to work and instruction. It'll be like 5 months of college with a job. It's no different if you actually calculate the time investment.
Excellent! I'm glad a big presence in the startup community is willing to train people, instead of demanding: "OMG I CAN'T FIND ROCK STARS I R D00MM333ED!!!!!!" like I see so many other companies do :)
I want to second this. Given the shortage of qualified developers, I actually find it baffling that more companies aren't taking this step. Kudos to Living Social to being proactive rather than whining about lack of talent!
SilasX, it would be great to hear your comments of this bootcamp.
These programs are awesome. I got accepted to devbootcamp but because I just moved out to SF(OCT) I don't have enough funds to do it in Feb-Mar(hopefully this summer). The Hungry Academy is an awesome idea which I would totally do if it wasn't in DC. Why are more companies not doing something similar?
I can see it being fine as a step 2...but it's way too big as a first step. And you want someone for a job as a programmer...and yet your "filter" for this is essays and videos?
Anyone who'd bother to waste a day writing all those essays and making the videos, can learn RoR on their own...especially if they are already a programmer since RoR is not that different from the other languages
I don't work for Living Social, but I think it's a huge risk that they're taking. The form is burdensome because it needs to be. The only people that they should get are people that really want to learn and that's exactly what they'll get here. Remember, the entrepreneurish techie on HackerNews is likely not their audience. The 19 year old fixing Mom's computer who just failed organic chemistry and might not want to go through with their Marine Biology degree is.
Is the job salary negotiated before the program? I feel like it must be hard to accurately judge someone's programming value before they learn how to program.
What happens if, at the end of the 5-month program, they offer you a desperately low-paying salary? Have you wasted 5 months and moved to DC for nothing?
I think it's even harder to manage the expectations of an already experienced developer coming into this program.
I did something similar with another company and ran into the issue that they were expecting to pay significantly less than I was expecting (realistically or not). In hindsight, it is obvious the program was designed for new programmers or recent grads.
It might not have been such an issue if we had talked about potential salary ranges up front. It was a big shock to learn of their expectations when the offer came across the table.
It's not negotiated before the program. In DC alone, we're seeing explosive growth in the Ruby community, so there are opportunities with the government, contractors, startups, you name it.
If you put your heart into the program there will be a job at LivingSocial for you. And the pay is very nice :)
Damn, that's really awesome. It seems like a cool way to get into web programming from other fields since they don't require RoR or even a programming background. I might have considered it if my due date wasn't in May...
I'm curious how you are contractually obligated to join the team for 18 months. What about salary, benefits, etc. While this could be a great opportunity, I would feel uncomfortable not knowing what package I would be getting after the 5 months. For all I know, they could pay us 10K for 18 months of work with no benefits.
I used a similar approach when i wanted Windows internals programmers in the early 90's. I just called it a internal training program, though.
Irrespective of the number of hours put up, i still think a person new to rails will get a chance to pick up a lot of knowledge and be mentored in the proces - and is a good deal for collage kids.
In a week, or so, you'll find out how this is very different from an internal training program. We're going to make this very external, a learning experience for whoever wants to be involved.
Hmm I have just started working with RoR. Would jump at this but the DC part is turning me away.
I know you guys said you had an office in Seattle any chance of a similar program there?
Edit: And I also would like to add that I wish there were more programs like this. So many companies want to hire elite,rockstar,jedi,ninja,etc programmers and not willing to give people like me with no CS background a chance. I can't even get an entry-level/junior position since they all require a strong skills these days.
No offense intended, but why should entry level software development jobs be available to people without a CS skill set? Many people spend four years studying CS specifically to earn an entry level job in software development. Shouldn't those without a CS background spend time developing a comparable amount of skills before expecting a software development job? Why should candidates without a CS degree be held to a lower standard? Why would such a candidate deserve the same opportunities as someone who did devote a significant time to learning CS?
I've been teaching programming for eight years now, and I'd say "What we do isn't that hard." If we were writing 3D game engines, yes we'd need insane levels of math, theory, etc.
But writing web applications is mostly about following smart patterns, getting something done, done quickly, then improving the hotspots that need it. I can teach you to do that in five months, no problem.
Then it just takes a lifetime of practice to be, truly, good.
I suspect by specializing them in developing with a specific language (Ruby) on a specific framework (Rails).
I doubt candidates will come out knowing how to approach computing models, implement algorithms, explain sequent calculus type systems, and write compilers.
I'm gonna give this a shot. I've been worried for a while about my skills as a developer and felt that I wasn't up to the same standard as other people (Just like everyone I guess). I think this is a perfect avenue for anyone who wants to get some more experience. Good luck to those entering :)
Awesome idea! I'm very interested to see how this plays out, as my shop (along with quite a few others that I'm aware of) are combating the shortage through apprenticeship programs. This looks like to be a super-structured version of just that.
Congrats to Chad Fowler, Jeff Casimir, and everyone else involved.
There's a problem in the application process that I am not sure I can overcome. I can upload a youtube video fine, but the only camera I own takes 240p. Which I really doubt will do anything besides convince the people running this program I'm not a good candidate. I might as well snail mail a VHS. So, if I can get around this step, I'd love to apply(and if I'm accepted I'd move heaven and Earth to make sure I completed the course) but the fact is it doesn't matter how "hungry" you are if the first impression you make tells people you don't have two nickels to rub together.
Maybe a library with a webcam-equipped computer? Friend with a camera phone? Volunteer somewhere for a few hours in exchange for using their equipment?
This sounds like a great opportunity--for those of us without mortgages, families and golden handcuff salaries. If I were younger or debt-free, you could see what someone who's hungry can accomplish.
As a mortgage man and father of two, I totally agree. If you have ideas on how we can make this work for people in your position, please let me know.
I thought about it being similar to one spouse working crazy hard while the second goes to law school for the eventual payoff future. Five months is a lot easier than three years, especially thinking about the $150K you'd owe.
So it's not easy, but I think it will be possible. I really hope that some join us, because there's no one hungrier than a person working to provide for the ones they love. Families teach you so much about work/life balance, how to do things efficiently, and how to smile -- things I'm looking for in our applicants.
[+] [-] edw519|14 years ago|reply
I love the idea that you're "edgy" and thinking outside the box, but honestly, have you really thought your application process through?
As an ugly introverted nerd who still has trouble getting a date, but builds killer software apps and loves doing it, the last thing I ever want to do is spend multiple days in order to enter your beauty contest.
So you'll end up choosing the prettiest people who present the best and write the prettiest code regardless of how important or influential it is.
You'd just be better off bringing everyone in for the first week of the class. By the end of that week, you'd have a much better idea of who would succeed in your program than your seemingly random method of choice.
I've written lots of cool stuff and would love to learn Ruby in what appears to be a great program like yours, but I'm just not hungry enough to subject myself to more superficial rejection. There are already plenty of women around for that.
[+] [-] rauljara|14 years ago|reply
You also have the "... who present the best and write the prettiest code regardless of how important or influential it is." Which is less crazy, because they do say that they want people who write clean code (who doesn't?). But they are also asking for your resume, so I don't think that saying "regardless of how important or influential it is" is fair, either.
It sounds like you've been through a lot of rejection in your life, and I really do sympathize, and understand what that can do to you. But you've gotten to the point where you're lashing out at these guys as though they've already rejected you, way before it's gotten to the stage where they could have even thought about rejecting you. It's not fair to them, and it's not fair to yourself. It comes off as incredibly aggressive, and it creates a really huge barrier before the conversation has even started.
[+] [-] j3|14 years ago|reply
The application is more about whether you feel like a good fit for the team than it is your programming skills. It doesn't mean "do you look good", it doesn't mean "is your English great," and it doesn't mean "Does this look like I 'expect' a programmer to look?"
We're trying to find out "is this a person I want to spend every day of my career with?"
We'd LOVE to bring everyone out for one of our in-person sessions, but are expecting a thousand applications for our 24 spots. Getting all those people in one place would be a massive undertaking and a huge waste of time for the 976 who aren't selected.
[+] [-] sequoia|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wallawe|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sequoia|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hkarthik|14 years ago|reply
You'll find quite a few that didn't study programming or CS in school, but got their start via company training programs in COBOL, RPG, or Visual Basic in the late 80s and early 90s. This was back when most universities didn't have a CS Program and programming was just a skill in high demand (much like today).
Some of these folks went on to management, system admin work, or kept pursuing the craft and still work side by side with us today.
So what Hungry Academy is doing isn't completely new, but it's a new idea with a fresh face.
[+] [-] JonnieCache|14 years ago|reply
Not to say this is necessarily what's going to happen here of course, but be careful boys and girls.
[+] [-] j3|14 years ago|reply
We don't want to exploit anyone, hah. In fact, it's quite the opposite -- we want to bring more people into this ridiculously bountiful world of software development.
[+] [-] sdoering|14 years ago|reply
Well done. slavery seems back at last.
[+] [-] barry-cotter|14 years ago|reply
IANAGerman but I lived there for a bit under a year. Don't the Bundeswehr(Army) and some of the big German companies offer a salary during the B.Sc.+M.Sc.in exchange for going to work for them for 10 years? Because this offer seems superior to me.
Actually a better comparision would be an Ausbildung(Apprenticeship). The company would have to really be exploiting them for it not to be better than an Ausbildung.
And by comparision with the apprenticeship system/vocational education system anywhere else, the German system is awesome. I have successfully convinced myself that this is an awesome opportunity and would apply if I was in a situation visa wise to do so.
[+] [-] j3|14 years ago|reply
But I'm not chaining anyone to a desk for 70 hours because _I_ don't want to live that way, either.
[+] [-] darklajid|14 years ago|reply
Give me something that is _fun_ and/or _interesting_ and I'm happily spending a big amount of time on it - and in fact, I did that in Germany as well, laws or not.
I'm not sure I'd sign something that says "You're required to put in these hours".
The compensation is completely open - I don't know if these people are payed as junior developers or trainees/interns etc.. - I guess that factors into the equation.
My gripe: I'd expect these 24 people to work on actual products (otherwise I'd question the teaching/mentoring method), so to me it seems the company is getting a temporary team, possibly for cheap.
If I'd be younger, w/o a significant other and - well - applicable (I assume this is for US residents only) I'd apply anyway, though...
[+] [-] jeremymcanally|14 years ago|reply
Plus, you don't know the program structure. That may include homework/group sort of stuff in addition to work and instruction. It'll be like 5 months of college with a job. It's no different if you actually calculate the time investment.
[+] [-] ColdAsIce|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rpwilcox|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sequoia|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SilasX|14 years ago|reply
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3267133 http://devbootcamp.com
Summary of differences I see so far are that Hungry Academy:
- has a different tuition sign (they pay you rather than you pay them).
- is for one employer rather than whoever they can connect you with.
- is in DC rather than the Bay Area.
- is 5 months rather than 2.
Both promote themselves as being compatible with those who have no programming experience, and have an ambitious learning schedule.
(Sidenote: I was accepted for the Feb-March cohort to devbootcamp.)
[+] [-] otrofimo|14 years ago|reply
These programs are awesome. I got accepted to devbootcamp but because I just moved out to SF(OCT) I don't have enough funds to do it in Feb-Mar(hopefully this summer). The Hungry Academy is an awesome idea which I would totally do if it wasn't in DC. Why are more companies not doing something similar?
[+] [-] vaksel|14 years ago|reply
I can see it being fine as a step 2...but it's way too big as a first step. And you want someone for a job as a programmer...and yet your "filter" for this is essays and videos?
Anyone who'd bother to waste a day writing all those essays and making the videos, can learn RoR on their own...especially if they are already a programmer since RoR is not that different from the other languages
[+] [-] cjoh|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jeffclark|14 years ago|reply
What happens if, at the end of the 5-month program, they offer you a desperately low-paying salary? Have you wasted 5 months and moved to DC for nothing?
[+] [-] gaustin|14 years ago|reply
I did something similar with another company and ran into the issue that they were expecting to pay significantly less than I was expecting (realistically or not). In hindsight, it is obvious the program was designed for new programmers or recent grads.
It might not have been such an issue if we had talked about potential salary ranges up front. It was a big shock to learn of their expectations when the offer came across the table.
[+] [-] john_p_wood|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] j3|14 years ago|reply
If you put your heart into the program there will be a job at LivingSocial for you. And the pay is very nice :)
[+] [-] araneae|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mattetti|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] switz|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] j3|14 years ago|reply
Let's say that I taught middle school and high school for five years, and both the training period and job afterwards pay WAY more than I ever got.
[+] [-] enry_straker|14 years ago|reply
Irrespective of the number of hours put up, i still think a person new to rails will get a chance to pick up a lot of knowledge and be mentored in the proces - and is a good deal for collage kids.
[+] [-] j3|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] venturebros|14 years ago|reply
I know you guys said you had an office in Seattle any chance of a similar program there?
Edit: And I also would like to add that I wish there were more programs like this. So many companies want to hire elite,rockstar,jedi,ninja,etc programmers and not willing to give people like me with no CS background a chance. I can't even get an entry-level/junior position since they all require a strong skills these days.
[+] [-] overgryphon|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] idiot900|14 years ago|reply
How do you expect to turn someone into a decent programmer in five months when they are starting from scratch?
[+] [-] j3|14 years ago|reply
But writing web applications is mostly about following smart patterns, getting something done, done quickly, then improving the hotspots that need it. I can teach you to do that in five months, no problem.
Then it just takes a lifetime of practice to be, truly, good.
[+] [-] agentultra|14 years ago|reply
I doubt candidates will come out knowing how to approach computing models, implement algorithms, explain sequent calculus type systems, and write compilers.
[+] [-] richardburton|14 years ago|reply
*Obviously I am kidding. This is definitely cool recruiting experiment.
[+] [-] safetyscissors|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bdunn|14 years ago|reply
Congrats to Chad Fowler, Jeff Casimir, and everyone else involved.
[+] [-] alexanderberman|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cvander|14 years ago|reply
As for the form, how about asking for HN users or githut accounts. They say more than a cover letter.
And was I the only one that didn't really got excited with the video? I rather get more leadership from the mentors when selling the idea.
[+] [-] j3|14 years ago|reply
Sorry you didn't dig the video. I'm happy to have one where I don't say "Damn, I look stupid/fat/messy/blah" :)
[+] [-] daimyoyo|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] j3|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yawn|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] j3|14 years ago|reply
I thought about it being similar to one spouse working crazy hard while the second goes to law school for the eventual payoff future. Five months is a lot easier than three years, especially thinking about the $150K you'd owe.
So it's not easy, but I think it will be possible. I really hope that some join us, because there's no one hungrier than a person working to provide for the ones they love. Families teach you so much about work/life balance, how to do things efficiently, and how to smile -- things I'm looking for in our applicants.