The bigger deal (bigger than the tracking that people usually focus on) might be how the algorithm is specifically tuned to reward dumb content in the US, compared to rewarding STEM and other educational content in China.
I'm not sure if this claim is true or not, but the person in your first reference is Andrew Schulz. He's a comedian who has already come out to say that he made all that up, and the media just ran with it [0].
I think this is a serious issue but underestimated. People in the US believe that the top science and engineering roles should be filled by immigrants which I don't think is sustainable or even a healthy view of education. I am basing this on the huge foreign population of our top schools and the push for H1-B visas. It can be a self fulfilling prophecy if people remove themselves from the running for STEM in earlier childhood.
This survey showed a growing number of people who want to be social media stars[1] as fewer want to pursue STEM. I can't picture a healthy society that makes this decision. You can't shun important roles of society collectively and then hope everything works out.
This makes absolutely no sense to me and even as an American, often times reads like anti-China propaganda. If the algorithms are showing STEM content on the Chinese version of TikTok, it's likely the result of two reasons:
1. Chinese children prefer STEM content and the algorithm is providing that to them.
2. It's enforced by the Chinese government or someone who believes this kind of content will benefit the Chinese future.
In the case of #1, this is a cultural issue and we have no one to blame but ourselves.
In the case of #2, which I believe is what most folks who say this are suggesting, I can't imagine why children would then proceed to download the app, use it for hours a day, only to learn science and math. Sure, some may enjoy it (as some in the US would as well), but a vast majority of that market is going to reject this and delete it from their phone. In fact, we have this in the US -- we have educational TV shows, you can visit a library on your free time, etc, but kids don't do it-- because they're kids.
This isn't a choice being made by TikTok, this is due to regulations/laws in China. If the US passed laws requiring TikTok to do the same in the US, they would obviously comply.
Opindia citing Tucker Carlson, Stephen Crowder, and using "alleged" videos of non gender normative people as examples of bad content is pretty revolting.
I'll also say that Instagram is just as much trash as TikTok, but it's our trash instead of china's.
Infinite-scroll short form trash content is this generation's trash TV, yet more addictive.
I would be personally happy if TikTok disappeared but this seems a bit silly? Is it not equivalent to pointing out that a production making documentaries for both PBS and Netflix would make their PBS content more educational but less sensational than Netflix?
Sounds like a hen/egg problem: It could well be that educational content just performs better in a market where education is valued both by society as well as kids, as compared to a market where most kids want to become an "influencer".
That western notice-me-culture has been obvious long before TikTok was a thing - consider reality TV, early YouTube, and the fact that several serial killers apparently murdered for the media attention.
Our own culture treats education as something that's not really that important. We promote sports stars with little to no educational background to ivy league universities. Hardly a teenage movie does not take a dump on 'math class'. Our kids are being told to dream and find their passions, but no-one considers them a failure if they get a D in the sciences. The student who excels is not praised societally, but shunned as a 'nerd'. Where 'hustle culture' exists, it is not seen as a way of achievement, but as a way to greater wealth, and almost always unpleasant.
Why then are we surprised that educational content does not perform well in the West?
As for the second link's part about TikTok promoting sexual confusion: Was it TikTok which started that discussion, or was it celebrities who made alternative sex/gender assignments cool (much like they made smoking cool in the 1950s), supported by pro-sex/gender-divergent activists? Imagine the backlash should TikTok decide to ban these topics from their platform.
sounds like china has the right idea. it takes me (in america) constantly weeding the garden of my youtube (also american) to minimize the dumb shit it shows me. so does america want stupid americans? is that not the biggest deal?
How much dumb content does it take for one to believe such bullshit?
Of course, the system are rewarding dumb content all over the world, because dumb people are the majority all over this planet.
The primary source of your "further reading" article is Tucker Carlson. Not saying the claim is incorrect, but are there any trustworthy sources supporting it?
It's a cultural war. I'm personally convinced they are also trolling many different ways on platforms such as 4chan and reddit. When the Ukraine war started I noticed so many sleeper accounts suddenly wanting to defend Russia's side...
that's because Americans want that content, and that precedes TikTok by a few decades. Literally every American media channel reflects that.
I've seen China blamed for a lot of things, some legitimate, but they didn't force Americans to pick the Kardashians over engineering degrees. American public discourse is becoming that Eric Andre show meme except it's "why did China make me do this"
Oh, please, as a Chinese I can say with 100% certainty that this is false. The Chinese state media and parents lament in the same way how douyin (tiktok’s version in China) dumb down the next generation of children.
When I just went to douyin.com, the first douyin was entitled "the role I play in your life is too vague." That douyin showed a beautiful women eating yogurt as her jacket was perpetually fallen off her bare shoulder. The second douyin was a rap video that showed a women modeling various clothes in different environments.
There are government regulations in China that censor and disallow twerking content, but I didn't see any stem videos, either.
Tuned towards dumb content or just content people want to watch like on every other platform? Are we getting made at TikTok for giving what their users want?
>"the algorithm is specifically tuned to reward dumb content in the US, compared to rewarding STEM and other educational content in China"
No idea if it is true but I think the US and Canada do not need foreign "help" in this department. Dumbification of the average Joes and Janes is a wet dream of every politician and big corps and thanks to advanced tech it is becoming more and more.
It's really hard to prove that this is a result of deliberate algorithms and not simply that Chinese culture promotes things like science and technology whereas the US promotes more dumb things. For example, someone like Logan Paul would have never gained popularity in China but he's one of the biggest creators in the US.
> might be how the algorithm is specifically tuned to reward dumb content in the US, compared to rewarding STEM and other educational content in China.
The China distortion field
Anything normally would be laughed at would be considered dead true when comes to China...
You're criticizing dumb content then show a 1 minute video as explainer, please don't take this the wrong way, but there are very few 1 minute videos that are not dumb.
And idiocy begets idiocy, but this is a problem with US-style social/entertainment media already. Though Chinese and US players do it for different reasons...
When they deployed wfh, they used mfa. They banned Google authenticator out of the view Google can't be trusted. But told people to search the app store for any other mfa app. They one my wife found makes you wait for an ad run before it displays the code. It sometimes crashes and is generally terrible.
The point being banning certain apps seems far more political than well thought out.
Exactly. Most state governments have competent enough IT that they use a corporate AppStore to deploy software to phones.
This is just a way to get the governor’s name out there as a VP candidate. Taking an anti-China stance sounds tough and decisive. She was pretty good getting her name out during COVID.
I have a fairly large position in Meta because I'm sure that the US government is going to ban TikTok. I think once it spikes from that announcement, it will at least make it back up to over $200, for the time being.
Unless I'm missing something, there is no penalty for using TikTok on an SD device, and there's no initiative for SD tech support to institute a ban. So basically, it's a pointless PR move for Noem.
If they had found the app doing some things, the ban would be nationwide. This is just one state's government trying to fan some fears about the chinaman.
That being said: I don't see why any government device should have access to any social media.
The argument to ban TikTok doesn't need to be complicated. Simply block Chinese media apps the same way China blocks all external media apps within its own borders.
In the context of any other kind of trade relationship would it be acceptable for China to get unfettered access to foreign markets whilst blocking all access to its own?
TikTok is such an obvious threat on so many levels, it’s very hard to understand why we don’t talk about this more.
I don't feel like its controversial to say that social media algorithms can be designed to manipulate people, or that this capability is especially dangerous in the hands of a hostile state. It seems to me like TikTok is ripe for weaponization in any future conflict between China and any other country.
To be fair, most organizations should have a list of allowed and forbidden apps and require a third-party security assessment before any cloud, SaaS, or network-enabled/social app is allowed on organization-owned device.
While the US is urging a ban on TikTok, I'm curious why the world at whole is not waking up and banning US-owned and operated social media - obviously it's an even bigger risk.
I had the weirdest interview of my life with Tik Tok.
Tik Tok, like anything run by the Chinese or other totalitarian regimes, is not very respectful of autonomy or freedom of expression, but I still want to know what went down at my old NGO after I was forced out -- I had thought the CEO worked for the Russians or something, she was so effective at destroying the organization like one of the sabotage guides I used to read in middle school on textfiles dot com, but one day I pop over to LinkedIn and she ended up working for Wal Mart, and the general counsel ended up at Tik Tok as people on Signal would do literally anything but connect me with a decent job but tell me the weirdest shit like "The Mayor of Albany beats his wife"
(Apparently one of my friends may have given their phone to some now dead FBI agent around the time I renewed my passport and loudly declared presidents last 8 years max and switched from learning javascript and CSS to learning Python and Metasploit.)
Anyways, Tik Tok sucks, Facebook sucks, all social media sucks. Delete your accounts and learn the value of verbal conversations in a room with NPR cranked to 11 on an analog radio you built yourself in a 3rd floor walkup with the door bolted and barricaded.
(Or maybe the above is disinformation... reader beware, you're in for a scare!)
[+] [-] hammock|3 years ago|reply
One minute video that explains: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hus9fWz0RRk
Further reading: https://www.opindia.com/2022/07/tiktok-china-engineering-oth...
[+] [-] blopker|3 years ago|reply
[0]: https://youtube.com/shorts/tAV3QkzHC5E
[+] [-] pjc50|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] onetimeusename|3 years ago|reply
This survey showed a growing number of people who want to be social media stars[1] as fewer want to pursue STEM. I can't picture a healthy society that makes this decision. You can't shun important roles of society collectively and then hope everything works out.
[1]: https://www.businessinsider.com/american-kids-youtube-star-a...
[+] [-] ebzlo|3 years ago|reply
1. Chinese children prefer STEM content and the algorithm is providing that to them.
2. It's enforced by the Chinese government or someone who believes this kind of content will benefit the Chinese future.
In the case of #1, this is a cultural issue and we have no one to blame but ourselves.
In the case of #2, which I believe is what most folks who say this are suggesting, I can't imagine why children would then proceed to download the app, use it for hours a day, only to learn science and math. Sure, some may enjoy it (as some in the US would as well), but a vast majority of that market is going to reject this and delete it from their phone. In fact, we have this in the US -- we have educational TV shows, you can visit a library on your free time, etc, but kids don't do it-- because they're kids.
[+] [-] Miner49er|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unethical_ban|3 years ago|reply
I'll also say that Instagram is just as much trash as TikTok, but it's our trash instead of china's.
Infinite-scroll short form trash content is this generation's trash TV, yet more addictive.
[+] [-] fasthands9|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DocTomoe|3 years ago|reply
That western notice-me-culture has been obvious long before TikTok was a thing - consider reality TV, early YouTube, and the fact that several serial killers apparently murdered for the media attention.
Our own culture treats education as something that's not really that important. We promote sports stars with little to no educational background to ivy league universities. Hardly a teenage movie does not take a dump on 'math class'. Our kids are being told to dream and find their passions, but no-one considers them a failure if they get a D in the sciences. The student who excels is not praised societally, but shunned as a 'nerd'. Where 'hustle culture' exists, it is not seen as a way of achievement, but as a way to greater wealth, and almost always unpleasant.
Why then are we surprised that educational content does not perform well in the West?
As for the second link's part about TikTok promoting sexual confusion: Was it TikTok which started that discussion, or was it celebrities who made alternative sex/gender assignments cool (much like they made smoking cool in the 1950s), supported by pro-sex/gender-divergent activists? Imagine the backlash should TikTok decide to ban these topics from their platform.
[+] [-] pasquinelli|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] satoru42|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cauthon|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] seper8|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Barrin92|3 years ago|reply
I've seen China blamed for a lot of things, some legitimate, but they didn't force Americans to pick the Kardashians over engineering degrees. American public discourse is becoming that Eric Andre show meme except it's "why did China make me do this"
[+] [-] netheril96|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] IncRnd|3 years ago|reply
Tiktok is called douyin in China.
When I just went to douyin.com, the first douyin was entitled "the role I play in your life is too vague." That douyin showed a beautiful women eating yogurt as her jacket was perpetually fallen off her bare shoulder. The second douyin was a rap video that showed a women modeling various clothes in different environments.
There are government regulations in China that censor and disallow twerking content, but I didn't see any stem videos, either.
[+] [-] yibg|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SoftTalker|3 years ago|reply
https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilybaker-white/2022/11/30/tik...
[+] [-] mcculley|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] FpUser|3 years ago|reply
No idea if it is true but I think the US and Canada do not need foreign "help" in this department. Dumbification of the average Joes and Janes is a wet dream of every politician and big corps and thanks to advanced tech it is becoming more and more.
[+] [-] xmprt|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] georgedegennaro|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bigcat12345678|3 years ago|reply
The China distortion field
Anything normally would be laughed at would be considered dead true when comes to China...
Use your f*king mind...
[+] [-] protoc|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tauwauwau|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RGamma|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rand0mx1|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mkbkn|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] elmerfud|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] technion|3 years ago|reply
When they deployed wfh, they used mfa. They banned Google authenticator out of the view Google can't be trusted. But told people to search the app store for any other mfa app. They one my wife found makes you wait for an ad run before it displays the code. It sometimes crashes and is generally terrible.
The point being banning certain apps seems far more political than well thought out.
[+] [-] Spooky23|3 years ago|reply
This is just a way to get the governor’s name out there as a VP candidate. Taking an anti-China stance sounds tough and decisive. She was pretty good getting her name out during COVID.
[+] [-] cm2187|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andrewstuart|3 years ago|reply
The recent protests in China have been suppressed by the CCP.
No doubt there are close to zero protest videos on TikTok.
There are protest videos on YouTube - though anecdotally YouTube management is attempting to suppress them because Google is tightly bound to China.
The question is, does it matter if protest videos are shown or hidden on social media? Can the videos shown on social media influence world affairs?
[+] [-] stackedinserter|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] purpleblue|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] boomboomsubban|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DocTomoe|3 years ago|reply
That being said: I don't see why any government device should have access to any social media.
[+] [-] IncRnd|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lazyeye|3 years ago|reply
In the context of any other kind of trade relationship would it be acceptable for China to get unfettered access to foreign markets whilst blocking all access to its own?
[+] [-] _-david-_|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mbgerring|3 years ago|reply
I don't feel like its controversial to say that social media algorithms can be designed to manipulate people, or that this capability is especially dangerous in the hands of a hostile state. It seems to me like TikTok is ripe for weaponization in any future conflict between China and any other country.
[+] [-] dontbenebby|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tinglymintyfrsh|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lizardactivist|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] desireco42|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fnordpiglet|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] somid3|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] resuresu|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] encryptluks2|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dontbenebby|3 years ago|reply
Tik Tok, like anything run by the Chinese or other totalitarian regimes, is not very respectful of autonomy or freedom of expression, but I still want to know what went down at my old NGO after I was forced out -- I had thought the CEO worked for the Russians or something, she was so effective at destroying the organization like one of the sabotage guides I used to read in middle school on textfiles dot com, but one day I pop over to LinkedIn and she ended up working for Wal Mart, and the general counsel ended up at Tik Tok as people on Signal would do literally anything but connect me with a decent job but tell me the weirdest shit like "The Mayor of Albany beats his wife"
(Apparently one of my friends may have given their phone to some now dead FBI agent around the time I renewed my passport and loudly declared presidents last 8 years max and switched from learning javascript and CSS to learning Python and Metasploit.)
Anyways, Tik Tok sucks, Facebook sucks, all social media sucks. Delete your accounts and learn the value of verbal conversations in a room with NPR cranked to 11 on an analog radio you built yourself in a 3rd floor walkup with the door bolted and barricaded.
(Or maybe the above is disinformation... reader beware, you're in for a scare!)