[fyresala]

iPhone made in China is no better than the cotton from Xinjiang.

Earlier the reports are workers in the China iPhone factory had a protest and brutal conflict with the local police. Reasons varied from unbearable working condition, the zero-covid policy, and being deceived about the compensation. After the local police oppressed the campaign, the government assigned headcounts to local villages, demanding them to fill in the factory slots. No wonder Apple loves China so much.

Apple and many westerners never understand the risk and the ethics implication of doing business in China. Apple has utilized the cheap labor at a level where can never be possible in the civilized world, as well as making great profit out of the upper class of China, who directly benefits from the oppression system of CCP or part of the party themselves. It turns out that in spite of all values that Apple promotes, it actually cares about nothing but the profit and its comfortable zone in China.

And I will not be surprised Apple will cease the plan in India as soon as China steps back from the zero-covid policy, as if all the blood has not been spilled.

[ksec]

>Apple and many westerners never understand the risk and the ethics implication of doing business in China.

May be for many westerners, but not Apple. They knew exactly what they are doing.

>It turns out that in spite of all values that Apple promotes, it actually cares about nothing but the profit and its comfortable zone in China.

Which is the worst part of it all. Their insane hypocrisy.

Now that Apple is only moving assembly out of China, but they are continuing their help and bring BOE ( Display ) , YMTC ( NAND ) and CXMT ( DRAM ) into their Supply Chain. Even long time partner for Battery like LG Chem are getting less order in flavour or another Chinese Partner.

But Yes, again Apple wins the headline and PR because they are finally moving out of China. And even if this isn't even confirmed, or in the work. Vast majority of public will think everything is working in that direction or as if they have been done already.

[RC_ITR]

Exactly. Tim Cook was the supply chain guy.

He became CEO because he was the only one as maniacally focused as Jobs, as proven to Steve by his willingness to make a literal deal with the devil.

The India plan will probably stick because Apple feels burned by zero covid and won’t keep themselves open to that kind of risk going forward.

[saiya-jin]

> May be for many westerners, but not Apple. They knew exactly what they are doing.

Yeah right, the idea that richest company ever didnt do a proper due dilligence and Tim personally didnt have whole + and - list with detailed financial and PR projections of each choice etc. is pretty naïve. I bet stuff thats happening was pretty high on cons list.

Everybody who wants to knows how things actually look like in China on the ground knows it easily these days, no mysteries. Suicides, oppression, child labor. Yet they couldnt care less and the only reason to move away is disruption of supply.

Ladies and gentlement there you have it, true morals of yet another big corporation, not worse but certainly not better.

But anytime I said something similar here on HN I get downvoted to hell, people for some ridiculous reason create tight emotional bond with a plastic gadgets in their pocket and go to great lengths to defend it regardless of facts.

And the last item - the idea that same amoral money-driven corporation on the other hand truly, properly cares about privacy beyond moves that look good from PR perspective is dangerously naïve too. There is simply no safe commercial phone, and Apple would have to open source all software and hardware to prove otherwise, so its just not happening.

[SamReidHughes]

Okay, be real for a second -- Apple doing manufacturing in China benefited the common Chinese factory worker by driving up wages.

[fmajid]

Wonderful news indeed, but it’s not out of any ethical concerns, but because XI Jinping’s draconian zero-Covid policy and incessant lockdowns have made the Chinese supply-chain unreliable, something Apple like all businesses hate (remember, Tim Cook became head of Apple because of his supply-chain management chops).

Still, good to see the totalitarian tyrant Xi wrecking China just as his inspiration Mao did back in the day. Even if there is a new Deng to fix the damage after him, the world will not naively give China the same opportunities again.

[otikik]

> good to see the totalitarian tyrant Xi wrecking China just as his inspiration Mao did back in the day

This affects real people who just found themselves on this situation and have no power to change it. Gleefully calling the situation “good” is callous and insensitive.

[jdhn]

> the world will not naively give China the same opportunities again.

I fear that you're wrong. Hopefully I'm the one who's wrong, but only time will tell.

[FabHK]

> iPhone made in China is no better than the cotton from Xinjiang.

I think if you'll ask the suppressed people of Xinjiang, you'll find that they disagree.

> It turns out that in spite of all values that Apple promotes, it actually cares about nothing but the profit

How is Apple responsible for the Chinese Zero-COVID policy, and the actions of the Chinese police?

Have you read Apple's extensive policies on Supply Chain standards and ethics? https://www.apple.com/supplier-responsibility/

> Apple has utilized the cheap labor at a level where can never be possible in the civilized world,

I'll just post this here from https://www.semafor.com/article/11/30/2022/apples-chinese-dr...:

> China is also no longer cheap. Wages have skyrocketed, with the average factory worker making $6 per hour on average in 2020, up from less than a dollar in 2006. The average wage of a Chinese factory worker will very soon surpass the U.S. federal minimum wage. For comparison, the average rate for a Mexican factory worker has stayed stagnant at $2 per hour.

[alex_sf]

> I think if you'll ask the suppressed people of Xinjiang, you'll find that they disagree.

Are you suggesting that China's slaves would prefer that the global economy continuing exploiting them?

> How is Apple responsible for the Chinese Zero-COVID policy, and the actions of the Chinese police?

They are enriching the entity that designed the policies and directs the police.

> Have you read Apple's extensive policies on Supply Chain standards and ethics?

Yes. Have you read the extensive laws against murder? Does murder still happen?

> China is also no longer cheap. Wages have skyrocketed, with the average factory worker making $6 per hour on average in 2020, up from less than a dollar in 2006. The average wage of a Chinese factory worker will very soon surpass the U.S. federal minimum wage.

No, it won't. Chinese labor law is a joke. Nobody in these factories are actually working 44 hours.

[ftyhbhyjnjk]

I really hope Apple as a company dies asap. Fcking hypocrite company. One of the most morally bankrupt companies in the world.

And please, take whiny little pussy xi jinping with themselves too... in the ground.

[throwawaaay129]

I don't know where people get the idea people are semi-enslaved in factories.. Having lived in China, in my second hand experience Chinese worker protection laws are quite strict. Somewhere between US and Europe. It's not really easy to fire people and people regularly sue their employers and win. The legal system is generally very heavily biased towards the little guy

I just feel really bad for these people. They probably left some country side life making peanuts to go make some real money for a while at a factory and like send their kids to college or whatever - and now westerners are like "no, you shouldn't do that. go back to your bucolic life of poverty. And btw we hate your government". Cool

From the initial reports it sounds like Foxxcon really royally screwed up and was not prepared logistically for a lockdown.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63739562

Another big part of this whole fiasco seems to have been conspiracy-theory style rumors and just a general freakout of the workers (which is kinda understandable given how policies are opaque and feel arbitrary)

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-63481793

"This young factory worker heard that the army was going to come in and take control so as to enforce a type of giant "living with Covid" experiment which involved allowing everyone in that part of Zhengzhou city to get sick."

In my experience.. even talking to educated middle class people.. these kinds of things are super common - even with all the social media controls. People believe all sorts of insane things b/c their sister's husband's cousin is in the army and told them blah blah. If in the US a double digit percentage of people believe that 9/11 was inside job - in the developing world the numbers are way scarier. It sounds like there was mass panic (again, kinda understandable given the mushroom management that's so common in Asia)

[rwalle]

Born and raised in China, I stopped reading this after the first paragraph.

Laws are meaningless if they are never enforced or are simply ignored. Which happens all the time in China.

It is not easy to fire people. Sure, in normal situations. But when appropriate, government is going to ignore all these and do whatever necessary, and maybe even threaten to put you or your family in jail. Want to go to court? Good luck, the judges are going to stand with the government.

Another example: the constitution says that Chinese people have the freedom to speak, publish and demonstrate etc. Tell me how that has worked out.

[fyresala]

Your views of labor law are completely wrong.

> in my second hand experience Chinese worker protection laws are quite strict.

And yes, it's very strict. Lawful working hours are 40 hours per week. Lawfully firing a employee requires higher compensation than US.

Do you really believe above is enforced in China? Next time when you visiting China, ask them if familiar with this quote: laws in China are strictly legislated, commonly broke, selectively enforced. In fact, 996 is a norm and a company that does not require 996 will advertise that when recruiting. Layoff compensation for many people is ZERO because they don't even have social insurance or contracts signed. 100 Chinese Yuan per day, you get it when working and get nothing when leaving. (That's not the case for Foxconn though. I believe everyone working in Foxconn at least has a contract.)

> I just feel really bad for these people. They probably left some country side life making peanuts to go make some real money for a while at a factory and like send their kids to college or whatever - and now westerners are like "no, you shouldn't do that. go back to your bucolic life of poverty. And btw we hate your government". Cool

Thanks, I appreciate that. I (the OP) am that kid though. And I believe getting involved in labor-intensive industries can be a better thing than what it is nowadays in China.

I agree with the rest of your post. Like I mentioned, reasons of the protest are varied.

[philliphaydon]

> Chinese worker protection laws are quite strict.

The fact 996 is illegal and still practiced and complained about and censored… makes any existence of protection laws being strict null and void.

[pera]

Your experience seems very different from what several international human rights organisations have been reporting for the past two decades.

I'd like to invite everyone here to follow for instance CLW: https://chinalaborwatch.org/

[hackernewds]

This reads oddly like propaganda and flies against any and all of the evidence that we regularly observe, including the protests against working conditions that we are observing now

[ngcc_hk]

It is not the law or the occasional protection. It is when it is not working, the threat as experienced by local that is the issue. Not to mention the overall issue of human suppression. It is not helping by producing and buying china.

Anyway, I think they moved is not because of this though. More because the unstable situation. And the invasion of Taiwan is inevitable. I will do it if I am in power. Not because I want to but I have to. That is the problem.

And if that happened, what you do. Like German or EU on Russia oil.

How many lesson you have to learn before you call yourselves …

[powerapple]

My take is that most people use this as an excuse, no one cares about labors, if you really care about them, I would shift more jobs, they make enough money and leave factory, have a small business. I have relatives working in factories, it is the best thing happen to them.

People are afraid to say 'fk China' blindly so they have to say it under disguise of some moral ground.

[jotm]

It can be a case of a factory running things like that. Pretty common in the US (with immigrants) and EU (again, immigrants).

Except Chinese factories are huge and aplenty, so they would "win" by numbers.

[90d]

I think it was the suicide nets?

[hulitu]

> I don't know where people get the idea people are semi-enslaved in factories.

Just normal propaganda.

[ls15]

> And I will not be surprised Apple will cease the plan in India as soon as China steps back from the zero-covid policy, as if all the blood has not been spilled.

I doubt it. The disadvantages of being dependant on a single source are well-understood in 2022.

[usrnm]

They were understood just as well 50 years ago, the problem is, all these disadvantages are long term. Short term profits always win

[iso1631]

> I doubt it. The disadvantages of being dependant on a single source are well-understood in 2022.

How many businesses rely entirely on AWS? How plausible would it be for them to move to Azure or GCP or similar?

[jasonhansel]

While I have no praise for the CCP, India's current government is not without its problems: https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/11/04/modi-india-personality-...

[Qtips87]

India has never been a democracy in the sense that the Westerners understood it. India is also a fucking land grabber. It has land grabbed every single of its neighbors once the British left town. You never hear it in the West because it doesn't fit the narrative the West has on India.

[sremani]

This comparing Indian Democracy with CCP is public exhibition of Intellectual dishonesty. No, they are not even in the same ball park.

Is there corruption in India, absolutely. Can you oppose the Indian government politically and still make hand over fist money, absolutely and in Indian South, East, North, West even in New Delhi itself.

Try getting a loan in China and being vocal critic of CCP. Indian democracy has different energy but when you consider transfer of power after election, it is a run fucking away success.

[alephnan]

> Apple and many westerners never understand the risk and the ethics implication of doing business in X

For clothing, people can check the label. Most consumers simply don’t care enough when fast fashion is cheaper and more convenient than “ethical brands”

[ClumsyPilot]

Sonetimes you go buy an ethical brabd, and then turbs out ut was from thevsame factoemry. Mahor brands like Nestle havecslavery in the supply chain, without chiba being involved

[amelius]

People never see the harm done so they are basically ignorant.

Most people wouldn't eat meat if they had to kill an animal either.

[sgu999]

> Apple and many westerners never understand the risk and the ethics implication of doing business in China.

Apple industrial partners are all asians. Samsung and the like don't do any better regarding ethics. Not sure why the divide with the "ignorant west" is necessary in your argument.

Of course people at Apple understand the risk, and it is taken into account to generate as much profit as possible.

[ekianjo]

lets not compare South Korea and China please...

[mschuster91]

> Apple industrial partners are all asians. Samsung and the like don't do any better regarding ethics.

You can rightfully complain about labor practices in other Asian countries, but forced labor from concentration camps is a uniquely Chinese atrocity.

[cpursley]

I basically agree with you on all points.

But can we please drop this "civilized world" term?

I suggest "democratic world".

[radicalbyte]

Yeah considering that China for about 2000 years was the leading civilisation I'm not sure why people use that term.

[amelius]

If you agree with all the points, then civilized seems apt.

[FollowingTheDao]

> I suggest "democratic world".

That's funny. Where is that?

Not the U.S., that is for sure. Look how the government just screwed over the rail workers:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/01/joe-bi...

There is a one world government and it is a oligarchy.

[akmittal]

> I will not be surprised Apple will cease the plan in India as soon as China steps back from the zero-covid policy,

Companies are not stupid to invest billions just to get manufacturing for few months. If someone is making assembly plans they will be willing to use it for atleast 4-5 years

[FollowingTheDao]

> Apple and many westerners never understand the risk and the ethics implication of doing business in China.

That was a a great apology for colonial industrialism and how US companies exploit workers in other countries and just move on when they also decimate their culture.

They know the risks. They do not care. They are on to the next "risk" where there will make another few billion.

[anovikov]

Truth is, there is no way to profitably produce any durable consumer products without dealing with someone who treats workers like trash, simply because everyone else is also doing this. Of course, we have a choice of them being Commies (China), or not being Commies (India), but that's about it.

Only way to fundamentally fix it will be to introduce a new Iron Curtain where we will "not trade with anyone we don't control", and that might work after a few frustrating years of high inflation and shortages, but will be too politically costly to try.

[vouwfietsman]

Calling China Commies is misplaced, its a self proclaimed communist state in the same way that North Korea is a self proclaimed democratic state. I think (not sure) China is mostly seen as "state-capitalist" by experts, which means a capitalist market with heavy state control & influence.

To label China as communist is similar to labeling the US as a company: it's a misrepresentation of the truth and says more about the labeler than about the country itself.

[sofixa]

> Truth is, there is no way to profitably produce any durable consumer products without dealing with someone who treats workers like trash, simply because everyone else is also doing this

In some cases that's true, but in the case of Apple - the one with higher cost "luxury" products, double digit percent profit margins, tens of billions of cash and trillion dollar market cap - it doesn't really make sense as an excuse.

[ascotan]

Maybe but as long as there is a trade war between the US and China, China seems to be a bad place to make iphones. Apples contractors need to find another place to due business so they dont take a hit to their bottom lines.

[pstuart]

It seems like more robotics is called for, if only Apple had the money to invest in it...

[dirtyid]

>iPhone made in China is no better than the cotton from Xinjiang.

High quality hardware and cotton that lifts peasants out of poverty through heavy state coordination with proceeds reinvested to move up value chain. No better = equally good.

[neycoda]

Ethics get in the way of maximizing profits. We could have ethical treatment of workers with affordable phones while the rich stay rich, but we're afraid of that

[georgeplusplus]

I feel the western general population shares responsibility. We all know whats going on and are told repeatedly but don't care or act.

[jotm]

Doing well at the expense of some of the population, name a more draconian duo heh.

[thefounder]

Sure, let's move some of that production to Vietnam because they are good communists!

[duxup]

> I will not be surprised Apple will cease the plan in India as soon as China steps back from the zero-covid policy

It seems unlikely that zero Covid is the issue for Apple…

[powerapple]

Wrong. The protest is about compensation, the workers were promised to have 10k once they get pass the probation period, 3 months. They were let go before the 3 month probation finished, and they demand the payment. You don't just go around developing world and criticize people not eating organic food or anything. It is not right. I wish Chinese workers get paid the same amount as their western counterparts, the fact is that factories moved there because of they can pay less. Is it a bad thing? No, apparently we need dollars to import anything, so they are making less money in western standards, but at least they are making some money. Has fairtrade coffee made African countries as rich as Europe? it will never happen, forget about ethics, if you are taking away the financial base where people can make a living, you are taking away everything.

[enkid]

Wait, are you saying because China isn't rich, workers shouldn't have rights? I'm legitimately asking, because when you boil down your argument, that's what it sounds like.