I decided I wanted to get more deeply into kayaking this year, after having fantasized about becoming a regular kayaker for many years. Part of that process has been to start taking classes with a certified instructor. Even from our level one class, I realize there was probably a lot that I should have known but didn't during my casual paddle-abouts.
The video calls out reckless marketing by Oru, and after watching, I'm inclined to agree. I'm building a wooden kayak right now using plans by Nick Schade from Guillemot Kayaks, and by contrast, his plans include a dense couple of pages on safety beginning with:
"Going out on the water in a small boat is always going to be risky. The waters of the United States kill about 100 paddlers every year. A trip out on the water should never be taken lightly. Of those people that die, over 80% of them are not wearing a life jacket or Personal Flotation Device (PFD). Wearing an appropriate PFD is the single easiest thing you can do for your own self-protection. Wearing the PFD is the key. Wearing an appropriate life jacket is comfortable and cheap insurance. Many paddlers die with the life jacket strap to the deck. They never have the time or ability to put it on after they've fallen in the water. It is extremely difficult to put on a PFD when you are already on in the water. When you need a life jacket it should already be on."
I live in Seattle, which means I'll be paddling on Puget Sound. I really don't know how self rescue happens in those Oru kayaks, but I think I'd be pretty nervous in one without a wetsuit and PFD as a bare minimum. (One nit to pick about the video: it calls out a couple drinking wine in kayaks on Puget Sound—in actuality they were stupidly drinking wine, not on Puget Sound, but on Lake Union, which is not nearly as cold as Puget Sound.)
At least here (not US) when you take a course for skipper license you also have to show ability to swim, put on lifejacket while in water, tie bowline around your waist and couple other.
The tasks are not particularly hard but this is done in perfect conditions and assuming a person that has actually trained for it.
People land in water in all sorts of situations including getting heart attack or knocked unconscious by a blow to the head. People who can't swim or get shocked by cold water may simply not have ability to think clearly at all even if they are perfectly fine otherwise.
A PFD that is not worn, can't activate automatically is as good as ballast in those situation. I would also add that PFD has to be able to turn your face into the air unless you are in a situation where there is a minimal chance you get rendered unconscious and you can get immediate help.
Aren't the couple in Lake Union right next to wear water planes land too? Sorta hard to move quickly out of the way with an open glass of wine.
I've seen people in these Oru kayaks in Union and Green Lake but never the sound. It's easy to rent an Oru off another local via Friendwitha, wonder if those people are properly safety briefed.
> Of those people that die, over 80% of them are not wearing a life jacket or Personal Flotation Device (PFD).
Making this statement in such a context borders on statistical misconduct, because it ignores base rates: Consider whether you'd find a statement that ">90% of injured car passengers were not wearing helmets" as a valid argument for helmet-wearing. This is presented as an argument for PFD-wearing.
Oru could definitely improve its marketing here, but Oru kayaks (when used responsibly with appropriate gear in appropriate conditions) are nothing short of a quantum leap. Getting Oru kayaks has unlocked kayaking for many of my friends who would otherwise balk at having to install rails and pads, lift heavy kayaks on top of the car, tie it down correctly and effectively, and then unload it, paddle, load it again, unload it in the garage, and so on. With the Oru, they just throw it in the back, unfold it in about 8 minutes, enjoy the water, fold it back up in about 8 minutes, and that's it. If you have any friends who are not yet on the water, could not recommend them more, and I'll probably get Orus for myself from here on out.
The fact that they are appealing to people who know next-to-nothing about boating underscores the danger of their ads. The convenience is no excuse at all.
That's a pretty strong selling point. How close to 8 minutes is that in practice?
(I see a review on moosejaw for the Bay ST where they mention having an eventual goal of assembling the thing in under 10 minutes)
I owned a Folbot for a while, and while they advertised sub-20 minute assembly times, it was really more like 30, which involved a fair amount of cursing at and struggling in 90-degree weather with the skin that never really stretched out to fit the frame. Moving to a sit-on-top that I can just throw on top of the car in 10 minutes on each side of the trip was a big win for me.
I think they're fine, albeit with a PFD and paddling with a group. Personally, I own a Sea Eagle inflatable. It's allowed me to kayak in many amazing places with little setup. Stores nicely. I highly recommend one.
I don't know much about these particular boats, but the ads caught my eye. For a long time, I've wanted to do an Alaskan flat water paddling trip. These are class I remote rivers accessible only by small plane, and the length of possible trips can vary from a week to multi week trips. So a boat that doesn't need a cargo plane sounds appealing. An inflatable could work, but they have their own drawbacks.
I was surprised to see you can roll them. That said, if you do capsize and swim whilst in open water what are your options?
In a sit-on-top you can flip it back over and crawl back on. In a plastic kayak, another person can empty the boat on their deck and then you can get in. I assume Oru is not structurally sound enough to do that?
People will always be reckless and I understand where this guy is coming from. I'm not surprised at all though. Why would he think a hip new company would be pushing safety over just having fun? New companies pushing boundaries have almost never been focused on safety.
> New companies pushing boundaries have almost never been focused on safety.
This is a big reason why I skipped buying a OneWheel. They look like so much fun and I live near the beach where it would be easy to ride them on the sand. That said, too many videos on YT about them just randomly stopping and people going flying. I'll wait for other companies give them some competition in order to drive out better products (and lower prices) in the long run.
Just from skimming it, cold and wet-suits dry-suits are also mentioned in the video.
I see no reason Oru couldn't have shown people wearing proper gear. Unless they think proper gear is uncool, so they're setting bad and dangerous examples, harming the sport overall, for their own profit.
I'm not really sure what the issue is. Advertising of any kind is notorious for having to suspend disbelief.
Also, I don't know if he thinks that people will see the ad and then go buy a kayak and jump in the water without having done any research or gotten any guidance about kayaking. I'm pretty sure the first brochure or article you read about 'kayaking for beginners' is going to include the safety information that he thinks is lacking in the ad.
In short, it's an advertisement. It's not a how-to.
> I don't know if he thinks that people will see the ad and then go buy a kayak and jump in the water without having done any research or gotten any guidance about kayaking
I think he does, and I absolutely agree with him. I think the average person is much less likely to do research about stuff than you think, especially when the advertisements take such a casual tone and are completely devoid of any safety considerations whatsoever. It very much seems marketed towards affluent, casual users who are likely ignorant to the specific dangers of cold water.
If you try to buy base jumping gear online, some manufacturers' websites will now check who your instructors are and how many jumps you have. That's because people have been known to just buy gear and go base jumping, with no experience or instruction.
In my mind, the problem is many of the ads normalize poor behavior that isn't obvious to a new consumer. Sure, few people are going to buy an Oru and head out in snowy, icy weather. But, in the PNW, the water temp can be dangerous all year - clear sunny and 80* air with 50* water temps. And conditions in open water can change rapidly.
But if you are showing the activity, why not show it being done properly, instead of showing it being done wrong?
Of course the adverts are not explicit How-To pics/vids, but learning takes repetition. It helps that people see it being done right every time, instead of sometimes wrong and sometimes right, especially when the wrong examples are in the context of creating the "isn't this cool" vibe.
If they think it is somehow uncool to wear appropriate gear, they are poisoning the well of the sport to enhance the sales of their own product. Not cool, and they are properly called out.
Wait until this guy see's speeding, weaving cars in automotive advertisements on TV...his head might explode at the recklessness and irresponsibility of it all.
I'm pretty certain that most people who drive cars are licensed, and thus have a conceptual understanding that such driving is dangerous. In contrast, cold water paddling poses risks that can be unintuitive to normal, everyday people. People can easily die of cold in the waters where I live on on a sunny, 80-degree day.
As other commenters have pointed out, those ads never show people not wearing seatbelts or drinking, and they always have the "professional driver on a closed course disclaimer", fwiw. Now...the car ads via movies and video games, that's a whole other issue. Need For Speed is basically a car advertisement that you pay to play.
Show me an auto ad of folks sharing a bottle of wine while driving or not wearing seatbelts or shoes. Those would never happen for the same reasons these irresponsible kayak ads should never happen.
Those advertisements do universally have a disclaimer at the bottom of the screen along the lines of "Professional driver, closed course, do not attempt", at least in the US.
I agree that these ads are showing unsafe use. That said, you can only (mostly) hurt yourself with a kayak. A car can hurt other people in many ways. It's the same story with a bike.
I definitely get the dangers of kayaking in extremely cold water. Whether or not ads should be held accountable to only promoting safe behavior is another conversation.
Also, he claims it is illegal to drink alcohol while kayaking in all 50 states. I don't believe this is true. In most states you're allowed to drink and operate a boat, you just can't be intoxicated (usually 0.08% BAC).
I've had one of these, their smallest folding kayak, for a few years.
On one hand, the Oru is incredibly unstable compared to a traditional kayak, whether a sit-on-top or a slide-in. The hull is made of flimsy plastic sheeting, is super light, and I doubt I could re-enter from the water if it ever flipped. I am not a great (or even good) kayaker, but I've done it (traditionally) a couple dozen or so times, taken kayak roll classes, learned wet exits and re-entries... more than a recreational renter would typically do, that's all I'm saying. I would never even ATTEMPT any of that in an Oru. I think it would just rip, if it hadn't already sunk by the time I got above water. If I capsize, I'm swimming to shore. If it's cold water, either I'm close enough to shore where I can walk out -- and that's only because I've swam a lot in cold waters -- or I'm not getting in. If there are rapids, I'm going to go somewhere else. If it's choppy, I'm definitely not getting in. I'm going to put on and fit my PFD before getting in.
But on the other hand, despite all those limitations, the Oru is my favorite watercraft ever. In the summer it just lives in my car's roof box, and we pull it out every other weekend or so, along with an inflatable paddleboard. We seek out gentle streams and serene mountain lakes -- of which there are plenty near us, and the Oru makes it possible to enjoy those bodies of water without needing to be rich and having a garage (a rarity in these parts) to store the kayak, specialized car racks, the upper body strength to lift it up, etc. For me, it turned kayaking from a once-a-year activity to multiple times a month.
Could Oru improve their safety signaling in the ads? Sure. But I look at those ads and think, "models being models". If you're going ocean kayaking next to a glacier with a bottle of wine, a puffy, and no rescue plan... I mean... exaggerated advertising or not, you're probably pre-selected for evolutionary culling anyway. No safety warning is going to save you. There will always be thrill-seekers and risk-takers who get off on doing stupidly dangerous things, especially in outdoor sports. But to a reasonable person, looking at a generic ad like that, I bet they're just thinking, "that looks fun but cold, maybe I'll try that somewhere warmer and safer". A reasonable person also wouldn't look at a car ad and then go buy and drive one at 100mph around tight mountain curves.
At the end of the day, at some point we have to let adults be adults and take responsibility for their decisions. Part of the joy of the outdoors is having freedom to roam as you wish, to be relatively unconstrained by the rules of man. It does not, however, absolve you from the laws of nature. Whether you're kayaking questionable waters, skiing sketchy slopes, hiking alone for days, free solo climbing, swimming open waters... you have that freedom, but you're taking your life into your hands. Death or injury is always a possibility... an eventuality, even.
With many outdoor sports, if you go unprepared, you're risking not only your own life but that of the search and rescue team who's going to try to find you when you disappear. With kayaking, if you go under, you have mere minutes to survive or die. Take basic safety precautions so you're not putting yourself or anyone else at unnecessary risk. But beyond that, it is your right and your prerogative if you want go out there and do things. If you bring a beer with you, that's your choice... you're an adult. Don't be stupid, use some common sense, and take some basic precautions. But also don't let generic warnings scare you away from the things you love. Many things are worth the risks.
No, he's just saying that if you fall into 50 degree water in the middle of a six mile wide crossing without protection, and there's no one around to help you, there's a decent chance you're going to die. I hadn't seen them before, but those ads are crazy.
Slightly off-topic: noticed something odd with Safari 16.1 (18614.2.9.1.12) running on macOS Ventura 13.0.1 (22A400) - The company's name "Oru" is not rendered in any Safari tabs or tooltip titles that are not the company's official website.
All of these titles have "Oru" prepended in their HTML source title tags and DuckDuckGo results, but disappeared in the Safari tabs and tooltip titles:
Safari has done this for a long time when you have multiple tabs with similar titles open.
I think the intent is to increase the unique text within the tab titles when you are reading sites that have titles like "My Blog - Tuesday's Article" and "My Blog - Wednesday's Article"; otherwise these would both shorten to "My Blog - ..." as tab count increases, or as other tab width constraints come in to play.
Granted, the heuristic for identifying common text between tabs isn't always great and can sometimes just result in titles looking cut-off.
Sadly, some people do. I am a regular whitewater kayaker, and I have had to help numerous people over the years that got a kayak (new or off craiglist or something) and drove out to the river and got in, with no research or training. They see pictures of people doing it, and think it looks like fun.
They end up swimming in the middle of the river with a boat full of water that they can't handle. In the spring especially, when the air can be quite warm, but the water may still be 20 degrees colder, they get hypothermic quickly.
Kayak scene is full self-appointed safety officers.
At one time they tried to legally force using the sprayhood at all times (in Sweden). They managed to do that with life vests already.
In Americas there is somekind of HitlerJungendish youth organization with butch women as leaders. "Outward Bound"? Anyways at one time I found one such going trough my stuff near Seattle. "Safety Inspection" she said.
[+] [-] peatmoss|3 years ago|reply
The video calls out reckless marketing by Oru, and after watching, I'm inclined to agree. I'm building a wooden kayak right now using plans by Nick Schade from Guillemot Kayaks, and by contrast, his plans include a dense couple of pages on safety beginning with:
"Going out on the water in a small boat is always going to be risky. The waters of the United States kill about 100 paddlers every year. A trip out on the water should never be taken lightly. Of those people that die, over 80% of them are not wearing a life jacket or Personal Flotation Device (PFD). Wearing an appropriate PFD is the single easiest thing you can do for your own self-protection. Wearing the PFD is the key. Wearing an appropriate life jacket is comfortable and cheap insurance. Many paddlers die with the life jacket strap to the deck. They never have the time or ability to put it on after they've fallen in the water. It is extremely difficult to put on a PFD when you are already on in the water. When you need a life jacket it should already be on."
I live in Seattle, which means I'll be paddling on Puget Sound. I really don't know how self rescue happens in those Oru kayaks, but I think I'd be pretty nervous in one without a wetsuit and PFD as a bare minimum. (One nit to pick about the video: it calls out a couple drinking wine in kayaks on Puget Sound—in actuality they were stupidly drinking wine, not on Puget Sound, but on Lake Union, which is not nearly as cold as Puget Sound.)
[+] [-] adamredwoods|3 years ago|reply
Another sad story emphasizing PFD use is the drowning of Naya Rivera. They had gone in for a swim and the boat started drifting away: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Naya_Rivera
[+] [-] twawaaay|3 years ago|reply
The tasks are not particularly hard but this is done in perfect conditions and assuming a person that has actually trained for it.
People land in water in all sorts of situations including getting heart attack or knocked unconscious by a blow to the head. People who can't swim or get shocked by cold water may simply not have ability to think clearly at all even if they are perfectly fine otherwise.
A PFD that is not worn, can't activate automatically is as good as ballast in those situation. I would also add that PFD has to be able to turn your face into the air unless you are in a situation where there is a minimal chance you get rendered unconscious and you can get immediate help.
[+] [-] MivLives|3 years ago|reply
I've seen people in these Oru kayaks in Union and Green Lake but never the sound. It's easy to rent an Oru off another local via Friendwitha, wonder if those people are properly safety briefed.
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] robryk|3 years ago|reply
Making this statement in such a context borders on statistical misconduct, because it ignores base rates: Consider whether you'd find a statement that ">90% of injured car passengers were not wearing helmets" as a valid argument for helmet-wearing. This is presented as an argument for PFD-wearing.
[+] [-] zardo|3 years ago|reply
Lake Union is colder from ~October through April.
But yeah, you should be dressed for immersion, in July, that might be a PFD and swimsuit.
[+] [-] felixgallo|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] subpixel|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ericgoesoutside|3 years ago|reply
I owned a Folbot for a while, and while they advertised sub-20 minute assembly times, it was really more like 30, which involved a fair amount of cursing at and struggling in 90-degree weather with the skin that never really stretched out to fit the frame. Moving to a sit-on-top that I can just throw on top of the car in 10 minutes on each side of the trip was a big win for me.
[+] [-] adamredwoods|3 years ago|reply
https://www.seaeagle.com/
Also note every single image each passenger is wearing a PFD.
[+] [-] mordechai9000|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hayd|3 years ago|reply
In a sit-on-top you can flip it back over and crawl back on. In a plastic kayak, another person can empty the boat on their deck and then you can get in. I assume Oru is not structurally sound enough to do that?
That seemed a pretty scary/legitimate criticism.
[+] [-] aaron_oxenrider|3 years ago|reply
Safety is extremely important and cold water kills, a lot. American Whitewater does a great job keeping track and you can see their stats here: https://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Accident/view/
No PFD is number 2 and I'm pretty sure a large portion of that flush drowning number can be partially attributed to cold.
[+] [-] latchkey|3 years ago|reply
This is a big reason why I skipped buying a OneWheel. They look like so much fun and I live near the beach where it would be easy to ride them on the sand. That said, too many videos on YT about them just randomly stopping and people going flying. I'll wait for other companies give them some competition in order to drive out better products (and lower prices) in the long run.
[+] [-] toss1|3 years ago|reply
I see no reason Oru couldn't have shown people wearing proper gear. Unless they think proper gear is uncool, so they're setting bad and dangerous examples, harming the sport overall, for their own profit.
[+] [-] illuminerdy|3 years ago|reply
Also, I don't know if he thinks that people will see the ad and then go buy a kayak and jump in the water without having done any research or gotten any guidance about kayaking. I'm pretty sure the first brochure or article you read about 'kayaking for beginners' is going to include the safety information that he thinks is lacking in the ad.
In short, it's an advertisement. It's not a how-to.
[+] [-] Encrust6221|3 years ago|reply
I think he does, and I absolutely agree with him. I think the average person is much less likely to do research about stuff than you think, especially when the advertisements take such a casual tone and are completely devoid of any safety considerations whatsoever. It very much seems marketed towards affluent, casual users who are likely ignorant to the specific dangers of cold water.
[+] [-] erostrate|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alistairSH|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] toss1|3 years ago|reply
But if you are showing the activity, why not show it being done properly, instead of showing it being done wrong?
Of course the adverts are not explicit How-To pics/vids, but learning takes repetition. It helps that people see it being done right every time, instead of sometimes wrong and sometimes right, especially when the wrong examples are in the context of creating the "isn't this cool" vibe.
If they think it is somehow uncool to wear appropriate gear, they are poisoning the well of the sport to enhance the sales of their own product. Not cool, and they are properly called out.
[+] [-] JimtheCoder|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] peatmoss|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yonaguska|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] subpixel|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kelchm|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lm28469|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zeitgeistcowboy|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andrepd|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pgm8705|3 years ago|reply
Also, he claims it is illegal to drink alcohol while kayaking in all 50 states. I don't believe this is true. In most states you're allowed to drink and operate a boat, you just can't be intoxicated (usually 0.08% BAC).
[+] [-] solardev|3 years ago|reply
On one hand, the Oru is incredibly unstable compared to a traditional kayak, whether a sit-on-top or a slide-in. The hull is made of flimsy plastic sheeting, is super light, and I doubt I could re-enter from the water if it ever flipped. I am not a great (or even good) kayaker, but I've done it (traditionally) a couple dozen or so times, taken kayak roll classes, learned wet exits and re-entries... more than a recreational renter would typically do, that's all I'm saying. I would never even ATTEMPT any of that in an Oru. I think it would just rip, if it hadn't already sunk by the time I got above water. If I capsize, I'm swimming to shore. If it's cold water, either I'm close enough to shore where I can walk out -- and that's only because I've swam a lot in cold waters -- or I'm not getting in. If there are rapids, I'm going to go somewhere else. If it's choppy, I'm definitely not getting in. I'm going to put on and fit my PFD before getting in.
But on the other hand, despite all those limitations, the Oru is my favorite watercraft ever. In the summer it just lives in my car's roof box, and we pull it out every other weekend or so, along with an inflatable paddleboard. We seek out gentle streams and serene mountain lakes -- of which there are plenty near us, and the Oru makes it possible to enjoy those bodies of water without needing to be rich and having a garage (a rarity in these parts) to store the kayak, specialized car racks, the upper body strength to lift it up, etc. For me, it turned kayaking from a once-a-year activity to multiple times a month.
Could Oru improve their safety signaling in the ads? Sure. But I look at those ads and think, "models being models". If you're going ocean kayaking next to a glacier with a bottle of wine, a puffy, and no rescue plan... I mean... exaggerated advertising or not, you're probably pre-selected for evolutionary culling anyway. No safety warning is going to save you. There will always be thrill-seekers and risk-takers who get off on doing stupidly dangerous things, especially in outdoor sports. But to a reasonable person, looking at a generic ad like that, I bet they're just thinking, "that looks fun but cold, maybe I'll try that somewhere warmer and safer". A reasonable person also wouldn't look at a car ad and then go buy and drive one at 100mph around tight mountain curves.
At the end of the day, at some point we have to let adults be adults and take responsibility for their decisions. Part of the joy of the outdoors is having freedom to roam as you wish, to be relatively unconstrained by the rules of man. It does not, however, absolve you from the laws of nature. Whether you're kayaking questionable waters, skiing sketchy slopes, hiking alone for days, free solo climbing, swimming open waters... you have that freedom, but you're taking your life into your hands. Death or injury is always a possibility... an eventuality, even.
With many outdoor sports, if you go unprepared, you're risking not only your own life but that of the search and rescue team who's going to try to find you when you disappear. With kayaking, if you go under, you have mere minutes to survive or die. Take basic safety precautions so you're not putting yourself or anyone else at unnecessary risk. But beyond that, it is your right and your prerogative if you want go out there and do things. If you bring a beer with you, that's your choice... you're an adult. Don't be stupid, use some common sense, and take some basic precautions. But also don't let generic warnings scare you away from the things you love. Many things are worth the risks.
[+] [-] johnwheeler|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] karaterobot|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Gordonjcp|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] michaelwm|3 years ago|reply
All of these titles have "Oru" prepended in their HTML source title tags and DuckDuckGo results, but disappeared in the Safari tabs and tooltip titles:
Oru kayak's reckless and irresponsible advertising - Paddlers' Place - Paddling.com: https://forums.paddling.com/t/oru-kayaks-reckless-and-irresp... https://i.imgur.com/K0XAa7Y.png
Oru kayak's reckless and irresponsible advertising | Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33892108 https://i.imgur.com/Ai53Akb.png
Oru Kayak Review - A Money Waster Or A Smooth Ride? | Killer Kayaks!: http://killerkayaks.com/oru-bay-kayak/ https://i.imgur.com/cc49ujA.png
Oru Lake Folding Kayak Review: Perfect For Urbanites And Beginners: https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbes-personal-shopper/2022/08... https://i.imgur.com/QCm0IXV.png
However, the words Oru Kayak are present on the company's official website:
Oru Kayak - Oru Kayak: https://www.orukayak.com https://i.imgur.com/fLs9Qc9.png
Was wondering if anyone else has this issue?
[+] [-] keville|3 years ago|reply
I think the intent is to increase the unique text within the tab titles when you are reading sites that have titles like "My Blog - Tuesday's Article" and "My Blog - Wednesday's Article"; otherwise these would both shorten to "My Blog - ..." as tab count increases, or as other tab width constraints come in to play.
Granted, the heuristic for identifying common text between tabs isn't always great and can sometimes just result in titles looking cut-off.
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] xrayarx|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kazinator|3 years ago|reply
"Oru: we took the 'bore' out of Oboreru!"
[+] [-] tclancy|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] FpUser|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pge|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] timonoko|3 years ago|reply
At one time they tried to legally force using the sprayhood at all times (in Sweden). They managed to do that with life vests already.
In Americas there is somekind of HitlerJungendish youth organization with butch women as leaders. "Outward Bound"? Anyways at one time I found one such going trough my stuff near Seattle. "Safety Inspection" she said.
[+] [-] teddyh|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] swamp40|3 years ago|reply
Oh, my. Wait till he sees the Youtube product review videos with girls in bikinis trying to compete for views.