For work-related stuff: I disagree. We're not even at Uber's scale at my company and I hate having to manage the ever-changing set of dependencies that I have no control over.
One of the reasons we developed devpods was because our setup scripts were unmanageable.
Instructions to new employees would say things like "run this thing, scroll up past dozens of pages of stdout noise and manually deal w/ the errors buried therein by looking up relevant FAQs in some doc somewhere"
The scripts would touch every technology imaginable, from brew to npm to arc (phabricator's cli) to proprietary tools and no single person understands how setup scripts work in their entirety.
One exercise we'd get new employees to run through was get them to brainstorm about how some system ought to work. The lesson was that just about any idea they could come up with would have already been tried (and failed).
I'm told that devpods aren't even the first time we tried cloud dev envs. Presumably lots of lessons were learned from previous attempts at improving dev envs.
Setup scripts that mutate an operating system are fragile. Break something? Unless you understand how the scripts work (which will become stupidly complex at a scale like Uber’s) you will have to reinstall your machine. Or you will have to staff a ton of support to help users when they do break their configuration.
Spinning up a VM with an image containing all the development tools is a much smoother experience most of the time. The only reason why I don’t use it where I work is because I use vim and network adds too much latency for me.
In practice setup scripts are brittle. New person joins the team and their script fails because it turns out everyone else’s dev environment was only working due to something left behind by some older script. Hotfix requires checking out an old branch but now I need to run an old script but my setup is from the future - the old script doesn’t know what needs to be un-done to get the system to a consistent state. And what about data? My old data has gone, the data I have is from the future. Never mind simple stuff like the script author assuming node is in /usr/bin but that’s not true for me because I use nvm.
But now you're saying "we shouldn't change dependencies". Pypy turns out to work nicer than CPython? now you have a rollout project to your team. Swapping out some libraries? Another rollout project.
Now, it's great if you can avoid complex setups in general cuz complex is harder no matter what! But if you're starting from a complex setup, having easy ways to roll out changes is an important step in actually doing the simplification work to get to where you want to be!
It IS ever-changing. One library among the zillions of local dependencies that you need to build something changes, and you have to go through the dependency hell.
If entire software world valued backwards compatibility and vigilantly guarded it, that wouldnt be a problem. But in the package hell that we are living in today, every other day a package update brings some incompatibility or breaking change for this or that other thing.
layer8|3 years ago
lhorie|3 years ago
Instructions to new employees would say things like "run this thing, scroll up past dozens of pages of stdout noise and manually deal w/ the errors buried therein by looking up relevant FAQs in some doc somewhere"
The scripts would touch every technology imaginable, from brew to npm to arc (phabricator's cli) to proprietary tools and no single person understands how setup scripts work in their entirety.
One exercise we'd get new employees to run through was get them to brainstorm about how some system ought to work. The lesson was that just about any idea they could come up with would have already been tried (and failed).
I'm told that devpods aren't even the first time we tried cloud dev envs. Presumably lots of lessons were learned from previous attempts at improving dev envs.
tylerhou|3 years ago
Spinning up a VM with an image containing all the development tools is a much smoother experience most of the time. The only reason why I don’t use it where I work is because I use vim and network adds too much latency for me.
jahewson|3 years ago
rtpg|3 years ago
Now, it's great if you can avoid complex setups in general cuz complex is harder no matter what! But if you're starting from a complex setup, having easy ways to roll out changes is an important step in actually doing the simplification work to get to where you want to be!
paxys|3 years ago
unity1001|3 years ago
It IS ever-changing. One library among the zillions of local dependencies that you need to build something changes, and you have to go through the dependency hell.
If entire software world valued backwards compatibility and vigilantly guarded it, that wouldnt be a problem. But in the package hell that we are living in today, every other day a package update brings some incompatibility or breaking change for this or that other thing.