CostCo sells several brands, but in particular Sony, that they have arranged to ensure that these TVs are fully functional when you decline the T&Cs and never connect it to the Internet. It is the only reason I currently own a "smart" TV, is because I could be reasonable certain that this was controllable. Otherwise, I'd probably only use projectors right now because these are still commonly purchaseable at consumer pricing without "smart" features that are unskippable.
> CostCo sells several brands, but in particular Sony, that they have arranged to ensure that these TVs are fully functional when you decline the T&Cs and never connect it to the Internet.
Do you have a reference for this? I guarantee that it would be interesting for people.
Without internet there is no guide data for off-air TV even though it is not only part of the ATSC stream, Sony is decoding it. I know this because the pop up menu for the channel line has the name and time of the program being watched. That had to come off air if the internet is disabled.
Declining everything and setting up the TV as “basic” still has the underlying Google TV OS reaching out to the Play store, Android update, plus something in the Google IP block in China. Yes, China. And three net blocks from Microsoft.
Carefully selecting and permitting only the AWS Cloudfront net block will restore guide data, but it will cause the Google TV OS to howl loudly about no internet access. Allowing it to hit www.google.com shuts most of it up, but I will be poking at the OS to find out what needs to be shut off. Developer mode is available.
Sony is not using anything to report what the user is watching, network traffic is non-existent when viewing something on HDMI inputs.
This was not a cheap TV, Sony promised they would honor my requests not to be monetized, but my need for their guide data suggests otherwise (PSIP is not entirely broken, just slow). That doesn’t matter, Google is there to pick up the slack on the over the shoulder browsing.
It will be relegated to HDMI use only, just like the Samsung it replaced.
I have an LG C8 OLED. I wanted the convenience of a smart TV without being tracked so I carefully went through every setting and turned it all off. I followed an article detailing what all the tracking settings were, how to disable them, etc.
I deliberately disabled all tracking options years ago.
Imagine my surprise a couple of weeks back when I looked in the settings. All of it was magically enabled again. Personalised ads, screen recognition, you name it, all switched on. How long for is anyones guess.
Thats why I use a cheap external box. Doestnt matter whether its firetv, appletv, chromecasr or anything. Unplug the power when u r done watching. Its so easy this way.
I've had an LG C2 OLED for almost a month. Turned off all those settings. So far so good, but will be keeping an eye out.
Before this TV I just used a first gen 4k Apple TV, but I noticed it was a bit stuttery and didn't support as many formats so I've been using the native TV apps. Maybe I rushed too quickly on that.
LG C1 OLED here, and my setup is rather simple and has been going just fine with zero issues for over a year now (with no update requests or anything like that).
I set it up normally at first, but software updates and such were annoying. LG TV has been connected to my router using wifi, so I simply clicked the "block internet connection for this device" in my router settings, and that was the end of my issues.
As for how I deal with outdated apps and such on the smart tv, I have never used them in the first place. AppleTV has been hooked to the LG TV the entire time, and all apps are used from the AppleTV side. Haven't had a single "update your tv software" dialogue even once since then.
This isn't limited to smart TVs. Every internet enabled device can do the same thing. When you allow someone other than yourself to remotely access and modify the software running on your devices they stop being "your" devices and companies will happily disregard your stated preferences and make whatever changes are beneficial for them.
The only way to have any control at all over your devices is to make sure that nobody else is able to modify them without your consent. Keeping our devices offline isn't always possible. Our computers and phones typically depend on internet access to stay useful, but you can at least make sure your TV is never connected to the internet.
It probably gets reset when it loses wall power. My TV resets some of the settings every time, I have to go back and edit it - it's very annoying. Sony Bravia.
I have been reading tech folks lament the disappearance of dumb screens for years.
I finally bought my first new TV in 2020, a Sony with Android TV. I have never connected it to the Internet. Instead, it displays an AppleTV or a gaming machine.
It has been an amazing reliable display at a reasonable price, every bit as good as the imagined ideal dumb TV.
So why all the pearl clutching? Do other brands require Internet to turn on and display HDMI?
I bought a new Samsung TV about a year ago. It has smart stuff that I don't care to use as I have a PC connected and a Chromecast w/ Google TV. I just want it to display HDMI signals generated by one of those devices.
On initial power-on, the TV aggressively pushed me to set up internet access and accept a terms & conditions statement. It took some degree of dancing to find a way past the setup wizard without completing these.
I am very careful when I select inputs. If I hit the Input button on the remote to switch between devices, I need to make sure I go no further than one step left or right to select the other input. If I go too far, the next selections will tell me that I have still not set up internet and accepted the t&c's and I must do so before I use the feature. This happens regardless of whether I press 'Enter' to actively select them.
I've actually had much your opinion for years, but the TV manufacturers really are stepping up their game. My previous Samsung smart TV I was able to use the "just don't configure it" approach and everything was peachy. The landscape is changing.
I do volunteer IT work for a private school. One of the TVs quit working. It would turn on, but you couldn't select any of the inputs (eg HDMI). It wouldn't work until I registered it online with a verified email address and went through a long (multi-page) process on their website, where it asked me for all my favorite TV shows, used dark patterns to imply I needed to give them a Credit Card, etc.
How can you tell in advance if a TV needs to be connected to the internet to work? We just plug computers/iPhones to ours via HDMI, and we never connect the TV directly to the internet.
The last thing we'd want is to get a TV home, get it unwrapped and plugged in, and then have to take it back because it won't turn on without an internet connection. And I wouldn't trust a Best Buy salesperson to be knowledgeable/honest about this.
I realize there are some signage brands that never require this, but often there are great deals on Samsung/Vizio/etc. units at Best Buy/Costco, and I'd rather get one of those if I can use it in offline mode.
I wish a reputable manufacturer would just make "dumb TVs" (aka monitors). I don't even need a TV tuner, just a display panel with the latest HDMI, ARC and CEC support such that I can control all features from my media player's remote (including turning on/off the TV, sound, etc.)
There are things like AW5520QF, but they tend to cost 3x - 4x as much as a TV with the same exact panel because of all the "gamery" features.
Is it possible that all the software that makes a TV "smart" is near zero marginal cost, but it can be used to market and sell a lower quality panel. Whereas the higher quality panel will sell itself due to being higher quality.
I have also never been bothered by the "smart features" of Sony TVs. I just do not connect it to a network.
I wonder if this is going to be a market. I would also like "dumb" options, to more than just TVs, and I'm hearing the sentiment elsewhere. Probably expensive and considered niche or high end?
Why not just buy a dumb TV and not connect it to WiFi?
There's been a bunch of gnashing of teeth about how they'll connect to open WiFi networks, but I can't remember the last time I came across a public WiFi network without a captive portal that would block their attempt to phone home. That seems to have died off in the last few years.
And if you're prone to tinkering you can just as easily connect one through an SBC and block all traffic
ATSC is a pretty awesome standard. There's parts of the newer ATSC standard that even supports 4k over the air. Other parts are more concerning from the data tracking perspective but it seems like there's an opportunity for a SmartTV that actually acts in the user's interest that is actually desirable and has a tuner.
I have a smart LG connected to a blu-ray player and a computer for gaming/streaming. It has never been joined to the wifi. It is hooked to the network for firmware updates via cat5 wire, but that wire is physically unplugged all the time. If I want something streamed, I stream it off the computer. I've not seen any degradation from the TV, it just works. Problem solved?
LG TVs can be updated from a USB drive. This lets you get firmware updates without needing to do a factory reset to remove the ads that would otherwise be downloaded when you connect to the internet.
Smart TV companies are going to begin to move to tech like this to pick up the telemetry when a jogger comes by with an airtag type device in their wallet:
It could happen with one of the firmware updates you plug in for, and when you plug in it could also dump stored telemetry, in some cases (Samsung) including screenshots of your desktop if you use your TV as a monitor.
I have an LG C2 OLED that I have never connected to the internet. It's not cheap, but it's got a killer UI and works incredibly well. I dig that the remote is kinda like a wii controller in that you can physically move it around to use it like a pointer device. I stayed at an Airbnb this last week which had a similar LG model that was connected to the internet and while it was great to have all the streaming services online and available, it was kinda irritating to see all kinds of alerts and popups once in a while. Modern TV's are good as long as you keep them in the dark, at least I can say that for LG.
I have the same experience with my LG C2. One thing that I can recommend is buying a decent router that can segment LAN traffic. This way you can connect the TV to your local network to utilize the Homekit functionality, but block all outbound internet traffic.
I bought this same tv a month ago. I ended up connecting it to my wifi, actually. I hadn't planned to since I have an older 4k Apple TV but decided to try the native apps.
With ads and tracking turned off, I haven't seen any ads other than a single one on the homescreen, which I rarely use as it is, for a $25 off thing for LG's website.
Is there any concrete research on the behavior of smart TVs when you've disabled telemetry? I leave mine disconnected but I'm curious to what extent different brands actually honor the opt out settings that are available.
For those who are able, a pihole is a must when connecting a smart TV (or any other “smart” device for that matter) to the internet.
It’s shockingly disturbing the amount of traffic my Samsung TV produces, even when watching OTA stations. It easily queries Samsung cloud domains more than any other device on my network. Thankfully I am able to sinkhole all those requests without totally breaking tv functionality, but after paying hundreds of dollars for a television, I don’t need to give them any more of my data for financial gain.
Our TV is a 3-year-old Samsung that tried pretty hard to get us to let it on the network. We let it, for a little while, to get cool active wallpaper features, but eventually did a reset and disabled it. We've never used the built-in clients at all; we drive it from the home media receiver, so its ultimate source is the AppleTV, the BluRay player, or the cable box.
I don't think it's tried to get online on its own; it still shows outdated movies for streaming on its startup menu, and I assume those would update if it had newer data.
I expect this TV to last a while, but realistically I guess I'll probably have to buy one or two more. I'm 52; it's only my 5th TV in about 30 years of having one (and I guess we're mildly odd in that we only have one TV at a time).
Now that I'm thinking about it, I think I'm kinda surprised at which of my TVs was the longest-lived:
1. I bought a 27" tube TV in 1991 for a few hundred bucks. Still a student.
2. When it developed financially terminal issues, I bought a MUCH NICER 27" tube tv in 1996 for about a thousand. Picture was amazing. Flat TVs didn't really exist yet.
3. I won a big drawing at work in 2000, and used the proceeds to replace #2 with a 55" rear-projection MONOLITH of a Mitsubishi (about $3300), which was great because I'd moved and the 27" was too small for the new room.
4. Only 8 years later that Mitsubishi developed the Convergence Problem of Doom. Fixing it wasn't a good move, plus hang-on-wall TVs were available. We got a 47" Vizio LCD for about $1400.
5. A really good Black Friday deal in 2019 convinced us to upgrade to the 65" Samsung I mentioned above.
My understanding is that #1 was repaired and used for another year or two by a FOAF before dying the true death.
#2 I gave to my old roommate, who used it until like SIX YEARS AGO, no kidding. It was a fancy enthusiast TV (RCA's upmarket line), so I guess that tracks. Even then it was still working fine at nearly 20 years old; it just didn't have the connectors, capabilities, or the dimensions to be that guy's living room TV anymore.
#4 is, I think, still being used by a friend of our housekeeper, at 14 years.
The premium manufactures realized they would make far more money by selling spyware then an actual premium product. "Pay" for Windows and it still spys on you these days.
> This all means that, whatever you’re watching on your smart TV, algorithms are tracking your habits. This influences the ads you see on your TV, yes, but if you connect your Google or Facebook account to your TV, it will also affect the ads you see while browsing the web on your computer or phone.
Definitely sucks that consumers don't really have alternative brands to choose from but personally, I don't have an issue with ad targeting and am happy to take the discount. What does bother me is that "smart" devices invariable take longer to start up than their "dumb" predecessors.
This sounds really crappy, from France perspective (and Europe, generally).
Our "smart" TVs are where the "smartness" is useless applications (mostly) but there is no requirement to be connected anywhere (that would be illegal), no ads (that would be illegal) and there are no options to get a TV that would be cheaper because it would show ads.
I thought that customer protection was stronger in the US, or that at least the customer needs where taken into account (like the whole buy-try-return (which we did not have until a dozen years ago))
What happens if you buy a used TV and the previous owner agreed to a bunch of TOS already? Should you just assume that a used TV has all imaginable tracking enabled?
After switching to Roku for my TVs (so much better than FireTV, at least), I find it easier to just get the TCL Roku TVs now. They're cheap, and have the Roku built right into them. Plus it's all in one remote, and I can even turn on my TV from my phone (handy when the kids misplace my remote). Heck, I can turn _off_ the TV from the other side of the house.
Just get a "display". See https://youtu.be/-epPf7D8oMk where Jeff Geerling talks about how great a TV his non-TV is. He has an NEC UHD Professional Display M551. He gets to control the software on the embedded Raspberry Pi. It's about $1700 but I think it's worth it.
Product link https://www.sharpnecdisplays.us/products/displays/m551
Anecdata: I bought a Toshiba 55M550KU a month or so ago. I've never plugged it into my wired network, and didn't give it my WiFi password. Yes, the main menu is focused around all the things I could do with Internet access, but all I have to do is choose "inputs" and I can configure it as I like with no "CONNECTION REQUIRED" barriers. This means I've never updated the firmware, but I'm guessing those updates would mostly benefit the complex (and changing) apps that I don't use.
My Sony Bravia never connected to the internet and has never been used to login to netflix or youtube. Though I use it regularly as a screen for a media center it isn’t smart enough to stay on for more than three hours at a time without me prodding the remote control which is only used to switch it on. As annoying as that sounds I imagine the only metrics it could be recording is how long it was on for as well as having nowhere to send the data to.
[+] [-] tristor|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pessimizer|3 years ago|reply
Do you have a reference for this? I guarantee that it would be interesting for people.
[+] [-] kmbfjr|3 years ago|reply
Without internet there is no guide data for off-air TV even though it is not only part of the ATSC stream, Sony is decoding it. I know this because the pop up menu for the channel line has the name and time of the program being watched. That had to come off air if the internet is disabled.
Declining everything and setting up the TV as “basic” still has the underlying Google TV OS reaching out to the Play store, Android update, plus something in the Google IP block in China. Yes, China. And three net blocks from Microsoft.
Carefully selecting and permitting only the AWS Cloudfront net block will restore guide data, but it will cause the Google TV OS to howl loudly about no internet access. Allowing it to hit www.google.com shuts most of it up, but I will be poking at the OS to find out what needs to be shut off. Developer mode is available.
Sony is not using anything to report what the user is watching, network traffic is non-existent when viewing something on HDMI inputs.
This was not a cheap TV, Sony promised they would honor my requests not to be monetized, but my need for their guide data suggests otherwise (PSIP is not entirely broken, just slow). That doesn’t matter, Google is there to pick up the slack on the over the shoulder browsing.
It will be relegated to HDMI use only, just like the Samsung it replaced.
[+] [-] mvexel|3 years ago|reply
[edit] looked it up, it's this one: https://www.lg.com/us/tvs/lg-55UM7300AUE-4k-uhd-tv
Of course, who knows if they've since updated the OS and make it impossible to use without establishing a network connection..
[+] [-] zmk5|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nerdawson|3 years ago|reply
I have an LG C8 OLED. I wanted the convenience of a smart TV without being tracked so I carefully went through every setting and turned it all off. I followed an article detailing what all the tracking settings were, how to disable them, etc.
I deliberately disabled all tracking options years ago.
Imagine my surprise a couple of weeks back when I looked in the settings. All of it was magically enabled again. Personalised ads, screen recognition, you name it, all switched on. How long for is anyones guess.
My trust for smart TVs is at an all time low.
[+] [-] gloryjulio|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spike021|3 years ago|reply
Before this TV I just used a first gen 4k Apple TV, but I noticed it was a bit stuttery and didn't support as many formats so I've been using the native TV apps. Maybe I rushed too quickly on that.
[+] [-] filoleg|3 years ago|reply
I set it up normally at first, but software updates and such were annoying. LG TV has been connected to my router using wifi, so I simply clicked the "block internet connection for this device" in my router settings, and that was the end of my issues.
As for how I deal with outdated apps and such on the smart tv, I have never used them in the first place. AppleTV has been hooked to the LG TV the entire time, and all apps are used from the AppleTV side. Haven't had a single "update your tv software" dialogue even once since then.
[+] [-] autoexec|3 years ago|reply
The only way to have any control at all over your devices is to make sure that nobody else is able to modify them without your consent. Keeping our devices offline isn't always possible. Our computers and phones typically depend on internet access to stay useful, but you can at least make sure your TV is never connected to the internet.
[+] [-] deafpolygon|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jupp0r|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bradreaves2|3 years ago|reply
I finally bought my first new TV in 2020, a Sony with Android TV. I have never connected it to the Internet. Instead, it displays an AppleTV or a gaming machine.
It has been an amazing reliable display at a reasonable price, every bit as good as the imagined ideal dumb TV.
So why all the pearl clutching? Do other brands require Internet to turn on and display HDMI?
[+] [-] sjsdaiuasgdia|3 years ago|reply
On initial power-on, the TV aggressively pushed me to set up internet access and accept a terms & conditions statement. It took some degree of dancing to find a way past the setup wizard without completing these.
I am very careful when I select inputs. If I hit the Input button on the remote to switch between devices, I need to make sure I go no further than one step left or right to select the other input. If I go too far, the next selections will tell me that I have still not set up internet and accepted the t&c's and I must do so before I use the feature. This happens regardless of whether I press 'Enter' to actively select them.
I've actually had much your opinion for years, but the TV manufacturers really are stepping up their game. My previous Samsung smart TV I was able to use the "just don't configure it" approach and everything was peachy. The landscape is changing.
[+] [-] jtbayly|3 years ago|reply
So, yes, the pearl clutching is for a reason.
[+] [-] gnicholas|3 years ago|reply
The last thing we'd want is to get a TV home, get it unwrapped and plugged in, and then have to take it back because it won't turn on without an internet connection. And I wouldn't trust a Best Buy salesperson to be knowledgeable/honest about this.
I realize there are some signage brands that never require this, but often there are great deals on Samsung/Vizio/etc. units at Best Buy/Costco, and I'd rather get one of those if I can use it in offline mode.
[+] [-] pixl97|3 years ago|reply
With that said, they typically don't have them out for you to do that.
[+] [-] gigel82|3 years ago|reply
There are things like AW5520QF, but they tend to cost 3x - 4x as much as a TV with the same exact panel because of all the "gamery" features.
[+] [-] akeck|3 years ago|reply
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1557462-REG/sharp_4t_...
[+] [-] massysett|3 years ago|reply
You just made the article's point. What you say you want does exist, but you're not willing to pay for it.
[+] [-] lotsofpulp|3 years ago|reply
I have also never been bothered by the "smart features" of Sony TVs. I just do not connect it to a network.
[+] [-] libraryatnight|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BoorishBears|3 years ago|reply
There's been a bunch of gnashing of teeth about how they'll connect to open WiFi networks, but I can't remember the last time I came across a public WiFi network without a captive portal that would block their attempt to phone home. That seems to have died off in the last few years.
And if you're prone to tinkering you can just as easily connect one through an SBC and block all traffic
[+] [-] Enginerrrd|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] daveevad|3 years ago|reply
ATSC is a pretty awesome standard. There's parts of the newer ATSC standard that even supports 4k over the air. Other parts are more concerning from the data tracking perspective but it seems like there's an opportunity for a SmartTV that actually acts in the user's interest that is actually desirable and has a tuner.
[+] [-] danielodievich|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] babypuncher|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 29083011397778|3 years ago|reply
Hell, that could be today, just rotating logs and discarding the oldest.
[+] [-] cma|3 years ago|reply
https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?ie=UTF8&node=213281...
It could happen with one of the firmware updates you plug in for, and when you plug in it could also dump stored telemetry, in some cases (Samsung) including screenshots of your desktop if you use your TV as a monitor.
[+] [-] whalesalad|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tylerflick|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spike021|3 years ago|reply
With ads and tracking turned off, I haven't seen any ads other than a single one on the homescreen, which I rarely use as it is, for a $25 off thing for LG's website.
[+] [-] semiquaver|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] danbr|3 years ago|reply
It’s shockingly disturbing the amount of traffic my Samsung TV produces, even when watching OTA stations. It easily queries Samsung cloud domains more than any other device on my network. Thankfully I am able to sinkhole all those requests without totally breaking tv functionality, but after paying hundreds of dollars for a television, I don’t need to give them any more of my data for financial gain.
[+] [-] bumby|3 years ago|reply
One of the points of the article is that if everybody did this, TVs would be much, much more expensive.
FTA:
"“post-purchase monetization,” and it means they can sell TVs almost at cost and still make money over the long term by sharing viewing data."
[+] [-] ubermonkey|3 years ago|reply
I don't think it's tried to get online on its own; it still shows outdated movies for streaming on its startup menu, and I assume those would update if it had newer data.
I expect this TV to last a while, but realistically I guess I'll probably have to buy one or two more. I'm 52; it's only my 5th TV in about 30 years of having one (and I guess we're mildly odd in that we only have one TV at a time).
Now that I'm thinking about it, I think I'm kinda surprised at which of my TVs was the longest-lived:
1. I bought a 27" tube TV in 1991 for a few hundred bucks. Still a student.
2. When it developed financially terminal issues, I bought a MUCH NICER 27" tube tv in 1996 for about a thousand. Picture was amazing. Flat TVs didn't really exist yet.
3. I won a big drawing at work in 2000, and used the proceeds to replace #2 with a 55" rear-projection MONOLITH of a Mitsubishi (about $3300), which was great because I'd moved and the 27" was too small for the new room.
4. Only 8 years later that Mitsubishi developed the Convergence Problem of Doom. Fixing it wasn't a good move, plus hang-on-wall TVs were available. We got a 47" Vizio LCD for about $1400.
5. A really good Black Friday deal in 2019 convinced us to upgrade to the 65" Samsung I mentioned above.
My understanding is that #1 was repaired and used for another year or two by a FOAF before dying the true death.
#2 I gave to my old roommate, who used it until like SIX YEARS AGO, no kidding. It was a fancy enthusiast TV (RCA's upmarket line), so I guess that tracks. Even then it was still working fine at nearly 20 years old; it just didn't have the connectors, capabilities, or the dimensions to be that guy's living room TV anymore.
#4 is, I think, still being used by a friend of our housekeeper, at 14 years.
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] sombragris|3 years ago|reply
I paid good money for mine and still tries to spy on me. Cheap they are not.
[+] [-] pixl97|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MBCook|3 years ago|reply
You have to buy commercial displays or large monitors if you want to avoid it.
There is no choice left in the market.
[+] [-] tqi|3 years ago|reply
Definitely sucks that consumers don't really have alternative brands to choose from but personally, I don't have an issue with ad targeting and am happy to take the discount. What does bother me is that "smart" devices invariable take longer to start up than their "dumb" predecessors.
[+] [-] BrandoElFollito|3 years ago|reply
Our "smart" TVs are where the "smartness" is useless applications (mostly) but there is no requirement to be connected anywhere (that would be illegal), no ads (that would be illegal) and there are no options to get a TV that would be cheaper because it would show ads.
I thought that customer protection was stronger in the US, or that at least the customer needs where taken into account (like the whole buy-try-return (which we did not have until a dozen years ago))
[+] [-] gnicholas|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ChuckNorris89|3 years ago|reply
Then you go in the menu and hit the factory reset option.
[+] [-] larrik|3 years ago|reply
Overall, seems like the best tradeoff to me.
[+] [-] ararar|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dtgriscom|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nfca|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zikduruqe|3 years ago|reply
Looking at you TCL.
[+] [-] omar_alt|3 years ago|reply