Game companies need this. It’s one of the “software engineering” adjacent subfields that is extremely exploited. The salaries are low, the work is stressful, crunch is high. The reason for this dangerous combo? You’re working your dream job.
This is good, I hope the employees at ActivisionBlizzard can finalize their union if they’re purchased by Microsoft.
Unions on the game industry would never work, reason why game industry is so abusive is two fold:
1. A lot of young people believe working with games is only fun, providing endless bodies to be hired and replace the previous young that realized how much it suck that they quit.
2. Games market follow a very strong winner takes all model, a few games have all profits, literally thousands games are released yearly that nobody ever heard of or bought.
As such here is the situation:
1. Very few companies (because of previous point 2) can afford to pay good wages and benefits.
2. The few companies that actually are wealthy, get so much applicants that every year starry eyed talented newbies will join for shit pay. Hell, when I had my own company people wanted to work for free even!
3. If a union starts to form, the company will just get rid of it somehow, even if is extremely bad PR, because people will still willingly throw themselves at such jobs thinking "EA Spouse" description of crunch time is a dream, not a nightmare.
Note: currently unemployed again. I am in love enough with games to want to brave all its shittyness, but I don't have my hopes up that I will get a game job, because my wife is pregnant and I need wages that allow me to take care of 3 people now, and I know in the game industry this is very unlikely. When I first finished university nongames companies offered me usually at least 3x what game industry did for same positions. My first job ended with me getting 5x the highest offer I got from game industry. I accepted it because the game industry offer was lower than my student debt repayments for my Game Design and Production degree...
I always try to see into the eyes of all those "stars", "project-managers" and "pr"-talkers, as they try to entice the next generation to wreck themselves, to keep the scam going. Hollywood, Paris, Gamer-town, the beast hungers for fresh flesh and minds. And even if you make it, it will be due to feeding the next generation into the grinder.
> The salaries are low, the work is stressful, crunch is high.
Is this because of supply & demand is different from other sectors? Say, people really love building games so they flock to the game industry? I'd imagine that developing games require highly specialized skills: great artistic sense, complex tool chains, deep understanding of maths and physics, and of course excellent programming and engineering skills. Case in point, my friends in the gaming industry routinely reads and implements SIGRAPH papers, or show me cool optimizations they did to all kinds of physics simulations with the NS equation, the constrained particle systems, and etc. It's hard to fathom that such talents get worse work condition that those who build CRUD apps.
Look what just happened to the railroad workers. The US government forced them back to work and gave everything to the companies.
Unions are effectively a corporation running labor. So you go from working for the company to working for your union rep. They then pimp you out and get kick backs. Wanna leave your job for another company or role? Good luck, you drop in seniority and will have your hours and pay cut. When layoffs come, the highest rank in the union decides who gets cut. His golf buddies obviously keep their jobs.
Then you end up like GE or Boeing in a zombie company. Poor management, poor senior engineers, and good, but underpaid low level engineers.
That’s not to say you can’t collaborate and organize. Ive organized my coworkers to make changes before, no union involved.
> In June, Microsoft said it was open to working with any labor unions that want to organize within its workforce, making it an outlier in the tech industry. Last year Amazon.com Inc. contested workers’ efforts to unionize. Microsoft has said it would support workers at Activision Blizzard Inc. who organized last year should its $75 billion deal for the “Call of Duty” developer close.
What else are they going to say in public? "Our plan is to engage in union-busting as much as we can legally get away with"? And what one company said is then compared to what another company actually did? Come on! This statement doesn't make MS an outlier, it's simply devoid of information content.
There are times I wish I had a union working for tech in finance. Although it seems like a real contract would fix most of the issues without unions.
These one page "we make the rules and can change them at any time" contracts are bogus. There's no accountability, no fairness. Things become arbitrary. There's no accountability when the company violates it's own policies.
> Although it seems like a real contract would fix most of the issues without unions.
It’s hard to disentangle these, unions are effectively the only way for non-executive[0] employees (in the US) to get an employment contract that isn’t one-sided in favor of the employer. The primary function of a union is to obtain a contract.
[0] I highly recommend reading the “Executive Severance Plan” section of any publicly traded tech company’s SEC filings, they are fascinating.
I tink unions in tech should be established while the industry is still in the gold rush. Sure, tech salaries are very high currently and tech workers tend to have more freedom in their jobs, but who knows for how long this will persist.
Better start building unions now, it's never too early for that.
No, this news is about a group of Zenimax employees. Zenimax is already owned by Microsoft. This is not related to Ravensoft QA union under ABK that made the news earlier this year.
QA in gaming industry sounds ripe for AI/ML solutions ... Automated testing already exists, but couple AI/ML for QA with free beta testers or super fans, and you can prob eliminate QA departments, or at least cut them down sizably. From what I know, the QA folks in gaming get paid crappy anyway, so its prob not a huge priority for MSFT. This is just some feel good press.
I'm ambivalent about unions. In general, they sound like a good idea to me, but in practice in the USA, they seem only a step above the mob.
For example, I was browsing /r/antiwork the other day and someone received a bill from their union after they chose to leave the job. The bill demanded the payment of $200 in union dues that were unpaid from their paychecks. The commenter did not have enough money to pay
To put it bluntly... this is exploitation. The responses were that the poster had two options (1) pay the due or (2) never work in any industry for which this is the union (and some other unions may not want you if you're out of date with the other union).
People have a right to work. No private organization, profit or non-profit, should be able to prevent you from doing that. I understand why a union may take a bit off the top of a paycheck, but to demand fixed sums after quitting under threat of never being able to work in that field again? That seems exploitative. We would never let a private for-profit business get away with threatening their employees as such.
Moreover, according to other unions I've interacted with, they claim that if you don't follow union policy, they can 'expel' you from the union after you go through 'trials'. Typically, tnis is if you cross a picket line. Now, I think it's usually in one's best interest to strike if the union is striking. However, this is a free country. No one should be able to prevent you from working. No private organization should be able to put you on trial with the consequence being that, if you lose, you cannot work. While organizations can expel members, that should be the extent of their punishment. Working is a necessity to earn an income. To deprive someone of that because they're not part of your club is morally wrong.
In my opinion, if we allow for closed shops, then unions should be obligated to represent any worker there, whether they have paid any dues or not. Union dues should primarily descend from paychecks. No worker should get a bill. No one should be able to be expelled from a profession simply for not following union labor policy (and realistically, there are only a handful of reasons a janitor ought to be expelled from the profession). Unions ought to be regulated like health insurance companies and be forced to advocate for anyone working in the field.
The 70s are back. We're approaching a period of strong unions, huge labor conflicts and eventually rampant inflation. At least in Europe.
I've been thinking that the USA would be affected less than Europe, due to weak unions in most sectors, but it's certainly possible for unions to form.
The 70s when one earner (even a factory worker) could still afford a house and kids and wealth gaps were way smaller? Better times for sure unless you're very rich.
[+] [-] yakattak|3 years ago|reply
This is good, I hope the employees at ActivisionBlizzard can finalize their union if they’re purchased by Microsoft.
[+] [-] speeder|3 years ago|reply
Unions on the game industry would never work, reason why game industry is so abusive is two fold:
1. A lot of young people believe working with games is only fun, providing endless bodies to be hired and replace the previous young that realized how much it suck that they quit.
2. Games market follow a very strong winner takes all model, a few games have all profits, literally thousands games are released yearly that nobody ever heard of or bought.
As such here is the situation:
1. Very few companies (because of previous point 2) can afford to pay good wages and benefits.
2. The few companies that actually are wealthy, get so much applicants that every year starry eyed talented newbies will join for shit pay. Hell, when I had my own company people wanted to work for free even!
3. If a union starts to form, the company will just get rid of it somehow, even if is extremely bad PR, because people will still willingly throw themselves at such jobs thinking "EA Spouse" description of crunch time is a dream, not a nightmare.
Note: currently unemployed again. I am in love enough with games to want to brave all its shittyness, but I don't have my hopes up that I will get a game job, because my wife is pregnant and I need wages that allow me to take care of 3 people now, and I know in the game industry this is very unlikely. When I first finished university nongames companies offered me usually at least 3x what game industry did for same positions. My first job ended with me getting 5x the highest offer I got from game industry. I accepted it because the game industry offer was lower than my student debt repayments for my Game Design and Production degree...
[+] [-] thunky|3 years ago|reply
Doesn't that make it a fair trade? Musicians generally don't make a killing either.
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] PicassoCTs|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] patja|3 years ago|reply
Do you think people writing game software are not software engineers?
[+] [-] AlexandrB|3 years ago|reply
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/dec/08/us-agency-bl...
[+] [-] hintymad|3 years ago|reply
Is this because of supply & demand is different from other sectors? Say, people really love building games so they flock to the game industry? I'd imagine that developing games require highly specialized skills: great artistic sense, complex tool chains, deep understanding of maths and physics, and of course excellent programming and engineering skills. Case in point, my friends in the gaming industry routinely reads and implements SIGRAPH papers, or show me cool optimizations they did to all kinds of physics simulations with the NS equation, the constrained particle systems, and etc. It's hard to fathom that such talents get worse work condition that those who build CRUD apps.
[+] [-] lettergram|3 years ago|reply
Look what just happened to the railroad workers. The US government forced them back to work and gave everything to the companies.
Unions are effectively a corporation running labor. So you go from working for the company to working for your union rep. They then pimp you out and get kick backs. Wanna leave your job for another company or role? Good luck, you drop in seniority and will have your hours and pay cut. When layoffs come, the highest rank in the union decides who gets cut. His golf buddies obviously keep their jobs.
Then you end up like GE or Boeing in a zombie company. Poor management, poor senior engineers, and good, but underpaid low level engineers.
That’s not to say you can’t collaborate and organize. Ive organized my coworkers to make changes before, no union involved.
[+] [-] habibur|3 years ago|reply
I was worried whether their core developers were unionizing or not.
Not yet. Not even the game developers.
[+] [-] skellera|3 years ago|reply
While the headline is technically correct, it’s obviously clickbaity. Saying Zenimax QA engineers are unionizing doesn’t get as many clicks.
[+] [-] bigbillheck|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adamsmith143|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] impish9208|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gyulai|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] advisedwang|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] VyseofArcadia|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jbotdev|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] giantg2|3 years ago|reply
These one page "we make the rules and can change them at any time" contracts are bogus. There's no accountability, no fairness. Things become arbitrary. There's no accountability when the company violates it's own policies.
[+] [-] mattficke|3 years ago|reply
It’s hard to disentangle these, unions are effectively the only way for non-executive[0] employees (in the US) to get an employment contract that isn’t one-sided in favor of the employer. The primary function of a union is to obtain a contract.
[0] I highly recommend reading the “Executive Severance Plan” section of any publicly traded tech company’s SEC filings, they are fascinating.
[+] [-] 4ggr0|3 years ago|reply
Better start building unions now, it's never too early for that.
[+] [-] robertlagrant|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] satvikpendem|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] coldpie|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Eumenes|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lloydatkinson|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anon291|3 years ago|reply
For example, I was browsing /r/antiwork the other day and someone received a bill from their union after they chose to leave the job. The bill demanded the payment of $200 in union dues that were unpaid from their paychecks. The commenter did not have enough money to pay
To put it bluntly... this is exploitation. The responses were that the poster had two options (1) pay the due or (2) never work in any industry for which this is the union (and some other unions may not want you if you're out of date with the other union).
People have a right to work. No private organization, profit or non-profit, should be able to prevent you from doing that. I understand why a union may take a bit off the top of a paycheck, but to demand fixed sums after quitting under threat of never being able to work in that field again? That seems exploitative. We would never let a private for-profit business get away with threatening their employees as such.
Moreover, according to other unions I've interacted with, they claim that if you don't follow union policy, they can 'expel' you from the union after you go through 'trials'. Typically, tnis is if you cross a picket line. Now, I think it's usually in one's best interest to strike if the union is striking. However, this is a free country. No one should be able to prevent you from working. No private organization should be able to put you on trial with the consequence being that, if you lose, you cannot work. While organizations can expel members, that should be the extent of their punishment. Working is a necessity to earn an income. To deprive someone of that because they're not part of your club is morally wrong.
In my opinion, if we allow for closed shops, then unions should be obligated to represent any worker there, whether they have paid any dues or not. Union dues should primarily descend from paychecks. No worker should get a bill. No one should be able to be expelled from a profession simply for not following union labor policy (and realistically, there are only a handful of reasons a janitor ought to be expelled from the profession). Unions ought to be regulated like health insurance companies and be forced to advocate for anyone working in the field.
[+] [-] trashtester|3 years ago|reply
I've been thinking that the USA would be affected less than Europe, due to weak unions in most sectors, but it's certainly possible for unions to form.
[+] [-] tchaffee|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Quarrelsome|3 years ago|reply