I just hope this emphasizes that individuals should never feel guilty or shameful if they need to back out of a job agreement that they made.
I've heard stories of folks that accepted job offers, only to have circumstances unexpectedly change shortly thereafter, or to have a better offer come along. And I've seen these people have a lot of stress and guilt about wanting to rescind their acceptance.
Just remember, it's just business. I guarantee Meta (and all other companies) are just treating it as business, and you should do the same. I'm not at all saying be rude, and it's important not to burn bridges, but remember that when push comes to shove a company will never show you loyalty beyond what makes economic sense and what is legally necessary, and you should do the same.
> When push comes to shove a company will never show you loyalty beyond what makes economic sense and what is legally necessary
I disagree. Privately owned & profitable companies have plenty of leeway to practice loyalty to their employees beyond what is economical and legal. Even in the unprofitable tech startup world, if it was all about the money, you'd see people getting laid off right before their vesting cliffs, but that doesn't happen, which is to some degree an expression of good will.
This is a dangerous idea to put in the head of impressionable young tech workers during a difficult economic time.
First of all, it's ridiculous to equate Meta with all companies. The mistake to watch out for is treating a company as a human being, and expecting the relationship to have similar social dynamics to that between natural persons. Companies are not humans, and the bigger they get the more apparent the truth becomes. However, in negotiating a job offer, you will also be dealing with humans, and your reputation very much matters on what those humans think as a result of your actions. Ghosting Meta (or any other mega corp) is not a big deal, they will forget you in 30 seconds. On the other hand, if you do this to a smaller company, especially one that is very resource constrained, they may be putting a lot of eggs in your basket, and backing out last minute could materially hurt them in a way that they won't soon forget. This could very much matter down the line, because even if the company goes out of business, the leaders there will likely still be around and may pop up on hiring committees/reference checks you least expect.
Thank you for this. I was in this exact position once, where a better offer came along just after I had accepted. Honestly, if the original company had matched (or gotten very close to) the better offer I would have still gone there since it wouldn't have required moving. But it was so much higher that I knew it was basically not going to happen. I felt guilty about that for a while. But going to the company I did turned out great for me, and if I was in that position again I'd do the same thing.
The unfortunate thing is that companies have a lot more power, the relationship isn't symmetrical. An individual withdrawing from from a job offer has to worry about being blacklisted by the company and often even other companies in the industry (I know this to be the case w/ some positions in banking, admittedly not familiar w/ practices in big tech). I'm not saying people should feel bad about walking away from an employment agreement, nor do companies deserve loyalty, but definitely emphasizing your point to avoid burning bridges because a lot of industries are a lot smaller on the inside than they look.
> but remember that when push comes to shove a company will never show you loyalty beyond what makes economic sense and what is legally necessary, and you should do the same.
I don't know if I agree with you. I've had big successful companies give me way more than I believe I deserved. I've had small companies screw me over (or at least tried to). I don't know if a hard-and-fast rule like that works for everyone nor every situation. My suggestion is to treat a company only as well as it treats you -- which is probably a good thing to do in life in general. Relationships should be reciprocal. For many of us who've worked for a while, I am sure there has been instances where companies or managers have gone out of their way to take care of us. Even at the company that tried to screw me over, my manager cared for me beyond what his job entails. For new offers though, since there is no history with the company, no one should feel obligated to accept an offer if there is a better one that comes along or if the potential employee have any misgivings about the company.
As a hiring manager I don’t hold it against someone for making a decision they think is right. I always see the candidate’s decision as also the right one for me. I do think it can reflect badly on someone if it’s handled poorly/unprofessionally but this is rare in my experience.
I don’t know, at some point, you are responsible for who you work for and the kind of person you want to be.
I’m not surprised to see large soulless corporations acting like large soulless corporations but my preferred solution to this problem is not to become cynical but to go work with people who have some values.
I wouldn’t feel bad about doing it to Meta, but Meta isn’t every company and every company isn’t Meta. You shouldn’t “punish” every company for the misbehavior of one giant one.
Though I would still say it’s probably usually fine to back out of an offer. Just take the normal care you otherwise would and be kind about it. Don’t just ghost them or be a dick.
I think it's a lot more nuanced. If you're joining LargeTechCo as one of thousands of entry level new hires, then reneg on an offer accept, I don't think that's a big deal.
But let's say it's a startup that put considerable effort into hiring you, and turned down other candidates, and you reneg just because you got a slightly better offer? You'll probably burn a few bridges.
I wouldn't call it loyalty. To me the only thing that counts is if someone is going to get in trouble if i don't show up. Any sufficiently large company wont feel pain of any kind, its just business as usual. Worse case: Someone has to fill a form.
The first dominos are falling. The others will soon follow. When Big Tech makes up a sizable marketcap of the markets, and most folks are passively invested these days, it will hit everyone.
It’s hard to guess. Big Tech has been riding high for a very long time in an environment saturated with cheap money. Still despite multiple crisis the rest of the economy is not doing so bad and reshoring has put manufacturing back into the limelight. We might see something more akin to a rebalance rather than a full on crash.
Let's go economic recession 2023, it'll be just like 2008 all over again!!! I hope the US Govt bails out Google and Facebook with billions of tax payer dollars this time while we all the voters realize there's no way to stop the bipartisan transfer of wealth to insecure financial ventures
I think roles in LON are considered probationary for the first 6 months... so technically I suppose they are not considered equivalent to FTE roles in the States. You normally go through a probation review in which they will decide to terminate, extend probation, or convert to full time employee.
This question was also raised when layoffs were first announced as it was noted there is difficulty doing layoffs in certain European countries and particularly challenging if you're actively on-boarding people at the same tie. Not sure how much this applies to the UK.
England’s employment rights are much less beneficial to employees now than they once were: nowadays, in your first 2 years, you have no meaningful protection beyond what’s contracted, it’s not until 2 years that you have employment protection rights that prevent dismissal without cause — an employer must go through the redundancy process to dismiss an employee with more than 2 years service without cause.
If you’re at a company less than 2 years, your employment can be ended whenever, so probation doesn’t serve any meaningful legal purpose, it’s just an arbitrary structure a company can use to review employees and delay granting additional benefits. While you’re on probation, you’re still a true full time employee.
(Employment tribunals adjudicate whether dismissal is fair, and dismissal for protected characteristics is never fair, regardless of length of service - e.g: you can’t fire someone because of their religion)
This was happening late last year when the big layoff was announced.
Here is my advice to anyone, particularly in this market: when you accept an offer, don't quit. Do not quit until you've started at the new company. Before you start they can just rescind the offer. After you start they need to fire you.
Remember you can just quit with no notice from your old employer. Is it ideal? No. But a lot of employers will have you doing nothing the last 2 weeks anyway. It'll just be handing off stuff and twiddling your thumbs.
But most importantly, the company won't hesitate to rescind an offer or fire you for reasons that have nothing to do with you, even when doing so puts you in an extremely precarious situation (eg you may lose your work visa and have to leave the country).
The company isn't your friend. it's a business and you have a business relationship. You're just terminating it, just like they can and do.
Fuck all that. Quit the moment you feel it is negatively impacting your life. You don't owe employers shit if they violate the spirit of your contract, the only signal you can send to make it clear that you find that despicable is to quit. Everything else is toxic careerist bullshit.
We aren't on this planet for long. You are entitled to a small rebellion once in awhile, particularly if it is merited.
Or try out having 2 jobs for a week before deciding if you want to put in a 2 week notice at your old job, quit the new job, or continue working at both.
this is explicitly happening in London so it is complicated. Contractual (and statute) notice period are enforceable by both sides and, in principle, your employer can successfully sue you for the difference between your salary and the cost of hiring a temporary replacement for the notice period.
Wow. I am so sorry to all those new grads affected. I was one of those new grads in 2018, I cannot even imagine the horror of having that offer rescinded back then.
Is that surprising or new? I think they laid off people who've been in the company for only a few days or weeks. I'm wondering if this announces even more lay offs.
I see some people rejoicing about Meta possibly declining, but unfortunately, this is a general trend and is bad for everybody in the field. I'm personally very worried about this recession.
No -- they laid off a broad swath across the board -- I know folks with 10 years experience who were laid off, although it did seem the layoffs were tilted toward more recent hires.
Naming and shaming, Insomnia Cookies in Philadelphia, PA didn't want to pay more than $100k for me full-time, which was already a non-starter, but they baited-and-switched an ostensibly full time job with benefits into a 90 day contract-to-hire arrangement.
Promissory estoppel[0] exists, but is kind of hard to get any money out of it, and depends on the circumstances and state you live in. Note that, in general, if you renege on a job offer after accepting, all that happens is the company blacklists you.
> If facebook makes you an offer and then pulls back can you sue?
Generally, an offer that has not yet been accepted does not create a contract, so probably not.
If it has been accepted, maybe, though in an at-will employment jurisdiction, probably not for the loss of employment, but maybe for reliance damages in some cases.
Genuine question - if I sign an offer with a company, and then renege on it before the start date (e.g., because I got another offer that i like better), do I owe money to the company for some form of money lost?
Not trying to defend Meta, they are gonna be just fine without me arguing in their favor on HN, but isn't this just the other side of the "you can quit any time you want without a warning" coin? Yes, rude and shitty to do, but I feel like it goes both ways, and it is kind of difficult to defend one without defending the other.
> You put a bid om a home and then try walk away usually means you get sued.
You might forfeit your earnest money, depending how the offer is written. But there are ways around that, and that's part of why some people advise having an attorney help write your offer. An attorney will include escape clauses that a realtor might not. Of course if there are too many escape clauses, your offer might get rejected, so it's a balancing act.
People back out of home deals all the time. For example, if the seller counter-offers your bid price, or asks for any other change in the offer, you can just drop the whole thing.
> You put a bid om[sic] a home and then try walk away usually means you get sued.
Usually the other way around. You can’t make someone buy but you can make someone sell. The buyer may lose their downpayment if they walk, but the seller can be sued to achieve “specific performance”, forcing them to sell if they get cold feet.
> This is the first time I'm aware that Meta is taking back signed, FTE offers.
I did a quick search on twitter and linkedin and found multiple posts about offers being rescinded from various types of jobs over the last year and even earlier. So much catastrophizing from these voices online. If you keep talking about everything leading up to a recession, you're gonna have a recession.
everyone seems to be avoiding the elephant in the room:
not everyone is meant to be working at these FAANG companies making obscene amounts of money working 3 hours a week.
plenty of jobs to go around at non-sexy companies that pay decent and have decent benefits not trumped up benefits like free food etc, that other workers don't experience.
once we start looking at software engineering as another "blue" collar office job then things will normalize.
Five years from now, Facebook will be trying to hire a new grad and Google will just steal them away with a lower offer by pointing to this incident. Facebook will have to throw even more money at new hires to get them to stay.
[+] [-] hn_throwaway_99|3 years ago|reply
I've heard stories of folks that accepted job offers, only to have circumstances unexpectedly change shortly thereafter, or to have a better offer come along. And I've seen these people have a lot of stress and guilt about wanting to rescind their acceptance.
Just remember, it's just business. I guarantee Meta (and all other companies) are just treating it as business, and you should do the same. I'm not at all saying be rude, and it's important not to burn bridges, but remember that when push comes to shove a company will never show you loyalty beyond what makes economic sense and what is legally necessary, and you should do the same.
[+] [-] fairity|3 years ago|reply
I disagree. Privately owned & profitable companies have plenty of leeway to practice loyalty to their employees beyond what is economical and legal. Even in the unprofitable tech startup world, if it was all about the money, you'd see people getting laid off right before their vesting cliffs, but that doesn't happen, which is to some degree an expression of good will.
[+] [-] dasil003|3 years ago|reply
First of all, it's ridiculous to equate Meta with all companies. The mistake to watch out for is treating a company as a human being, and expecting the relationship to have similar social dynamics to that between natural persons. Companies are not humans, and the bigger they get the more apparent the truth becomes. However, in negotiating a job offer, you will also be dealing with humans, and your reputation very much matters on what those humans think as a result of your actions. Ghosting Meta (or any other mega corp) is not a big deal, they will forget you in 30 seconds. On the other hand, if you do this to a smaller company, especially one that is very resource constrained, they may be putting a lot of eggs in your basket, and backing out last minute could materially hurt them in a way that they won't soon forget. This could very much matter down the line, because even if the company goes out of business, the leaders there will likely still be around and may pop up on hiring committees/reference checks you least expect.
[+] [-] grogers|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lofatdairy|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hangonhn|3 years ago|reply
I don't know if I agree with you. I've had big successful companies give me way more than I believe I deserved. I've had small companies screw me over (or at least tried to). I don't know if a hard-and-fast rule like that works for everyone nor every situation. My suggestion is to treat a company only as well as it treats you -- which is probably a good thing to do in life in general. Relationships should be reciprocal. For many of us who've worked for a while, I am sure there has been instances where companies or managers have gone out of their way to take care of us. Even at the company that tried to screw me over, my manager cared for me beyond what his job entails. For new offers though, since there is no history with the company, no one should feel obligated to accept an offer if there is a better one that comes along or if the potential employee have any misgivings about the company.
[+] [-] mmmBacon|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] neilv|3 years ago|reply
The often mercenary attitudes in tech aren't great, but not all companies will behave the same.
[+] [-] WastingMyTime89|3 years ago|reply
I’m not surprised to see large soulless corporations acting like large soulless corporations but my preferred solution to this problem is not to become cynical but to go work with people who have some values.
[+] [-] baron816|3 years ago|reply
Though I would still say it’s probably usually fine to back out of an offer. Just take the normal care you otherwise would and be kind about it. Don’t just ghost them or be a dick.
[+] [-] Ozzie_osman|3 years ago|reply
But let's say it's a startup that put considerable effort into hiring you, and turned down other candidates, and you reneg just because you got a slightly better offer? You'll probably burn a few bridges.
[+] [-] throwaway14356|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Octokiddie|3 years ago|reply
This is the danger of fixating on the economic rearview mirror. And few things are more rearview than hiring and layoffs.
Leading financial indicators such as yield curves and oil futures are painting a very clear picture and it's not good.
[+] [-] mysecretaccount|3 years ago|reply
Care to elaborate?
[+] [-] theGnuMe|3 years ago|reply
It's not clear to me. Can you please explain?
[+] [-] AviationAtom|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] WastingMyTime89|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tempsy|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] roflyear|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BurningFrog|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] frakkingcylons|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TechBro8615|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SQueeeeeL|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ilickpoolalgae|3 years ago|reply
This question was also raised when layoffs were first announced as it was noted there is difficulty doing layoffs in certain European countries and particularly challenging if you're actively on-boarding people at the same tie. Not sure how much this applies to the UK.
[+] [-] phphphphp|3 years ago|reply
If you’re at a company less than 2 years, your employment can be ended whenever, so probation doesn’t serve any meaningful legal purpose, it’s just an arbitrary structure a company can use to review employees and delay granting additional benefits. While you’re on probation, you’re still a true full time employee.
(Employment tribunals adjudicate whether dismissal is fair, and dismissal for protected characteristics is never fair, regardless of length of service - e.g: you can’t fire someone because of their religion)
[+] [-] rcme|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yodsanklai|3 years ago|reply
My understanding is that it's difficult to do both, as they need to prove that the new role can't be filled by someone impacted by the layoff.
[+] [-] jmyeet|3 years ago|reply
Here is my advice to anyone, particularly in this market: when you accept an offer, don't quit. Do not quit until you've started at the new company. Before you start they can just rescind the offer. After you start they need to fire you.
Remember you can just quit with no notice from your old employer. Is it ideal? No. But a lot of employers will have you doing nothing the last 2 weeks anyway. It'll just be handing off stuff and twiddling your thumbs.
But most importantly, the company won't hesitate to rescind an offer or fire you for reasons that have nothing to do with you, even when doing so puts you in an extremely precarious situation (eg you may lose your work visa and have to leave the country).
The company isn't your friend. it's a business and you have a business relationship. You're just terminating it, just like they can and do.
[+] [-] ShamelessC|3 years ago|reply
We aren't on this planet for long. You are entitled to a small rebellion once in awhile, particularly if it is merited.
[+] [-] P0l83q4p1Hw3Ul|3 years ago|reply
Or try out having 2 jobs for a week before deciding if you want to put in a 2 week notice at your old job, quit the new job, or continue working at both.
[+] [-] postalrat|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gpderetta|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dom96|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yodsanklai|3 years ago|reply
I see some people rejoicing about Meta possibly declining, but unfortunately, this is a general trend and is bad for everybody in the field. I'm personally very worried about this recession.
[+] [-] sweettea|3 years ago|reply
(I didn't get laid off)
[+] [-] snovv_crash|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] neon_electro|3 years ago|reply
Naming and shaming, Insomnia Cookies in Philadelphia, PA didn't want to pay more than $100k for me full-time, which was already a non-starter, but they baited-and-switched an ostensibly full time job with benefits into a 90 day contract-to-hire arrangement.
[+] [-] ipaddr|3 years ago|reply
You put a bid om a home and then try walk away usually means you get sued.
[+] [-] the_jeremy|3 years ago|reply
[0]: https://www.lawyers.com/legal-info/labor-employment-law/job-...
[+] [-] dragonwriter|3 years ago|reply
Generally, an offer that has not yet been accepted does not create a contract, so probably not.
If it has been accepted, maybe, though in an at-will employment jurisdiction, probably not for the loss of employment, but maybe for reliance damages in some cases.
[+] [-] filoleg|3 years ago|reply
Not trying to defend Meta, they are gonna be just fine without me arguing in their favor on HN, but isn't this just the other side of the "you can quit any time you want without a warning" coin? Yes, rude and shitty to do, but I feel like it goes both ways, and it is kind of difficult to defend one without defending the other.
[+] [-] SoftTalker|3 years ago|reply
You might forfeit your earnest money, depending how the offer is written. But there are ways around that, and that's part of why some people advise having an attorney help write your offer. An attorney will include escape clauses that a realtor might not. Of course if there are too many escape clauses, your offer might get rejected, so it's a balancing act.
People back out of home deals all the time. For example, if the seller counter-offers your bid price, or asks for any other change in the offer, you can just drop the whole thing.
[+] [-] teeray|3 years ago|reply
Usually the other way around. You can’t make someone buy but you can make someone sell. The buyer may lose their downpayment if they walk, but the seller can be sued to achieve “specific performance”, forcing them to sell if they get cold feet.
[+] [-] googlryas|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] smabie|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] drbeast|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thenerdhead|3 years ago|reply
I did a quick search on twitter and linkedin and found multiple posts about offers being rescinded from various types of jobs over the last year and even earlier. So much catastrophizing from these voices online. If you keep talking about everything leading up to a recession, you're gonna have a recession.
[+] [-] dzonga|3 years ago|reply
plenty of jobs to go around at non-sexy companies that pay decent and have decent benefits not trumped up benefits like free food etc, that other workers don't experience.
once we start looking at software engineering as another "blue" collar office job then things will normalize.
[+] [-] Fatnino|3 years ago|reply
Five years from now, Facebook will be trying to hire a new grad and Google will just steal them away with a lower offer by pointing to this incident. Facebook will have to throw even more money at new hires to get them to stay.
[+] [-] shashashasha___|3 years ago|reply