edit: I was mistaken, OR still hasn't done this, but there's been a big push for it in the past year or two and it's still a dumb idea.
They've done this in Oregon to keep carbon emissions down which is a huge mistake IMO. Many rural communities do not have a very reliable grid (I'm in one of them), and the state has done nothing to improve it (this is going to be a big issue when everyone is driving an electric vehicle). This is especially concerning during winter storms when you really need to be able to heat something up.
The winter storm of 2019 for instance had me stuck at home for at least two weeks in 3-4 feet of snow. All electrical was down the entire time, pipes were frozen solid despite leaving taps running, and I had to melt snow for drinking water. Most people don't understand just how much energy melting snow consumes until they've done it themselves -- my stove was going all day long, nonstop. Had I had an electric stove, I would have had to rely on my wood stove but many people don't have that option. The only other realistic option would be to rely on a generator, but for an electric range you're going to both need a big ginny and a lot of fuel on hand for it.
A better approach IMO would be to legislate better kitchen hoods and ventilation, and to focus on educating people of the hazards of using gas. Also funding a more resilient grid.
I couldn't find the study from the publication mentioned in the article.
I have a gas stove and I cook all the time. The stove is probably burning for upwards of 20 minutes every single day. Is that really a cause of asthma? If 20 minutes does it, wouldn't cooks (presumably with burning stoves for hours and hours 6 days a week) experience it far greater? Maybe professional kitchens have proper ventilation, so it doesn't matter.
I'm assuming the original study would answer some of these questions.
It’s been known for decades that gas stoves cause issues for childhood development both physically and mentally. The effect surely exists for adults too but most likely people don’t notice feeling foggy-headed as a serious issue in their lives. And if they do, they don’t know the source.
The discussions online about this make me wonder what the discussion around asbestos bans or other similar wide spread materials and appliances was like.
You don't have to look too far back -- the absolutely unhinged takes about replacing incandescent light bulbs was a good example. Slightly different since there weren't explicit health concerns with the bulbs but it was still wild.
If gas stoves are a respiratory risk, why aren't all chefs (and other restaurant workers and possibly even patrons) overrun with such health issues?
It could be an issue of ventilation, as in commercial kitchens generally have industrial-grade ventilators (by necessity). I imagine the standards for residential kitchens are a lot more lax.
If a link can be found, wouldn't then the issue be one of a gas stove requiring sufficient ventilation rather than banning them outright?
Gas stoves generally work when there's no power and that's a huge issue for a lot of people. The standard for outright banning gas stoves should be incredibly high.
Recently I've had an experience with a minor gas leak that's left me afraid to even use my furnace. I have a gas furnace, and I live in a rental. The furnace works, but for the first hour of it being on I can smell gas. It's enough that a carbon monoxide detector will go off nearby.
One day I told my partner that I've been feeling super groggy and cloudy-headed for a few months, and we narrowed down the time frame to when I moved into my place. Sure enough, I switch to using a small space heater and two weeks in I'm feeling better than ever before. I 100% attribute the fogginess in my brain to the gas leak. It wasn't enough to cause an explosion, but it doesn't take much to cause serious health problems.
Unburned natural gas is not just a little stinky, it is profoundly nasty. Way, way, way before you could get enough concentration to hurt you, or blow something up, you'd be vacating the premises. Mercaptan is really strong stuff.
Like someone else mentioned, you probably had a malfunctioning furnace. Your symptoms match CO poisoning, and carbon monoxide sensors don't usually detect natural gas leaks -- it's a different molecule entirely.
It likely wasn't a leak. It was likely that the furnace is not properly maintained, resulting in poor ignition allowing unburned gas and CO. Possibly something wrong with the exhaust too.
A leak itself should not make you groggy - gas workers are exposed to fairly high concentrations without issue. However that is a symptom of CO exposure, and your CO alarm triggered...
Whenever this topic comes up people bring up induction stoves. If you live in an apartment that uses electric then you 99% of the time have a shitty coil electric burner and those are absolute trash compared to gas. Induction isn't a possibility unless you are in the more premium apartments which cost a pretty penny or own your home. The more sensible solution is mandating all gas stoves have well vented hoods. I have lived in at least 3 apartments that had stoves with no hoods.
Everything I've heard about induction stoves from people on the internet has been positive. Everything I've heard about induction stoves from people I know IRL who have them has been negative.
Induction stoves don’t use more power than cheap coil stoves, so they are possible in those apartments too.
Whether or not the landlord would pay the premium to install one is another question, but they certainly aren’t impossible.
There’s a zero percent chance that existing gas stoves will be banned, that would be an enormous expense for many landlords (thus tenants), even ignoring the cost of wiring new 50 amp range circuits, it may require service upgrades in many older buildings.
Gas stoves are so nice relative to electric stoves. I guess as the electric production mix moves to renewables gas is becoming increasingly worse in carbon footprint.
They'll have to come and take my propane lacanche stove / oven. I live in a very rural mountain area and need to be able to cook when the power goes out. I've been looking into installing a backup generator but they are very expensive and getting an electrician to return a call is like winning the lottery. I have a cutover switch so I can run my well pumps off a small honda generator when the power goes out but without my stove that isn't much use.
I doubt very much anyone is looking to make people switch existing appliances. That's never how it works. First they'll make it illegal to sell new ones. Second, if they really want to get wild, they'll make it illegal to sell a house that has a gas stove. That isn't terribly likely, but there is precedent. In no case are they going to come knock on your door...
It seems very much like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to ban them outright. Require a fume hood, and if that is not enough then at least just ban it for new constructions or remodels. Induction is nice but I don't think it covers every niche just yet, and gas stoves are very desirable in places where electricity tends to go out due to weather.
Another "city" idea without concern for people who live outside of cities. Electricity is really expensive where I live, but gas is cheap. This idea would seriously hurt the household budget.
I love my gas stove, although I've been interested in a precision induction stove. As a statistician, I'd be really interested in digging into this statistic:
> A December 2022 study in the International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health found that indoor gas stove usage is associated with an increased risk of current asthma among children. The study found that almost 13% of current childhood asthma in the US is attributable to gas stove use.
I read the article (4 pages) and it doesn't seem obviously flawed, but the data is very limited and only for 2019. There also isn't really enough information to reproduce the analysis. I hope the CPSC would base their considerations on a larger, more in-depth study (perhaps over time?)
It's funny to me how people compare how hot each type of stove gets. Even when I sear a steak, and I like my steaks blue, I barely go above medium on my gas range.
Imo, the best thing about gas is the continuous nature of the output and significantly greater range of temperatures gas can hit, ie much lower than electric and induction. I think it is imperative you have a proper ventilation.
I don't like banning things, and think that mandating proper ventilation would be akin anyway, but given it would reduce carbon emissions and fire risk maybe it does make sense for an outright ban.
Honestly, "for the children" is the weakest argument for the ban.
People harp about maximum BTUs like they need a flame capable of cutting steel or something, but the point is having more burner surface to distribute the flame over a larger area, and not about the maximum heat output of each burner.
What's the reasonableness of this? 40% of homes are gas.
What % of kids with asthma have a gas range? CPSC report doesn't even mention asthma...
Why can't they mandate ventilation? Why a ban?
How much is government giving to move away from gas?
>a rebate of up to $840 for an electric stove or other electric appliances, and up to an $500 to help cover the costs of converting to electric from gas.
That's not bad. Might be able to convert to induction.
So really they aren't banning natgas, this is all about getting people to pull trigger.
"Over the past several days, there has been a lot of attention paid to gas stove emissions and to the Consumer Product Safety Commission. Research indicates that emissions from gas stoves can be hazardous, and the CPSC is looking for ways to reduce related indoor air quality hazards. But to be clear, I am not looking to ban gas stoves and the CPSC has no proceeding to do so.
CPSC is researching gas emissions in stoves and exploring new ways to address health risks. CPSC also is actively engaged in strengthening voluntary safety standards for gas stoves. And later this spring, we will be asking the public to provide us with information about gas stove emissions and potential solutions for reducing any associated risks. This is part of our product safety mission – learning about hazards and working to make products safer."
I keep waiting for a company to come along and offer a "pro-style" induction insert that feels like a high-end gas range. I want completely analog controls consisting of front-facing, big-ass, metal, heavy knobs whose only purpose in life is to crank up the heat when you turn them. It should draw 50 amps on a slow day. None of this glass touchscreen crap, no picking a level from 1 to 9, no beeps, no "lock mode" or LCD digits or bluetooth or any of it. This can't be that hard...
In my experience with an induction cooktop over the holidays was that it heated very un evenly, burning food on one side of the pan, while the other side was not cooking at all. It had a terrible user experience (this is obviously specific to that brand), and was not precise at all; either too hot or too cold. It did boil water quickly, though.
Why can’t someone make a heat exchanger pot or pan where the combustion air is vented away like we do with gas water heaters and furnaces? It also never sat right with me that there’s a giant tank of near-boiling water in our garage, yet we use a ton more energy to heat up cold water for cooking.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
This is entirely based on heath concerns -- there's no way to cook with gas indoors that doesn't pollute your home. There are tons of gas furnaces, fire places, and hot water heaters that are "direct vent" so 100% of the combustion air & their byproducts are sequestered outside - perfectly safe to have in your house.
“Last hope” is accurate, because there are various other options for cooking without power that I’d choose before having a gas stove in my house for that purpose. Generator + induction stove, barbecue, camp/backpacking stove, “smokeless” fire pit with the appropriate accessories.
[+] [-] giardia|3 years ago|reply
They've done this in Oregon to keep carbon emissions down which is a huge mistake IMO. Many rural communities do not have a very reliable grid (I'm in one of them), and the state has done nothing to improve it (this is going to be a big issue when everyone is driving an electric vehicle). This is especially concerning during winter storms when you really need to be able to heat something up.
The winter storm of 2019 for instance had me stuck at home for at least two weeks in 3-4 feet of snow. All electrical was down the entire time, pipes were frozen solid despite leaving taps running, and I had to melt snow for drinking water. Most people don't understand just how much energy melting snow consumes until they've done it themselves -- my stove was going all day long, nonstop. Had I had an electric stove, I would have had to rely on my wood stove but many people don't have that option. The only other realistic option would be to rely on a generator, but for an electric range you're going to both need a big ginny and a lot of fuel on hand for it.
A better approach IMO would be to legislate better kitchen hoods and ventilation, and to focus on educating people of the hazards of using gas. Also funding a more resilient grid.
[+] [-] dang|3 years ago|reply
U.S. safety agency to consider ban on gas stoves amid health fears - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34310218 - Jan 2023 (210 comments)
Related:
I measured the pollution from my gas stove - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34316613 - Jan 2023 (199 comments)
Gas stoves are more hazardous than we’ve been led to believe (2020) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31630946 - June 2022 (122 comments)
What a gas stove ban means for restaurants - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31603850 - June 2022 (592 comments)
My best estimate is gas stoves decrease life expectancy by 53 days on average - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30275953 - Feb 2022 (117 comments)
How bad is my gas stove? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29935939 - Jan 2022 (520 comments)
Cities try to phase out gas stoves but cooks are pushing back - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27874912 - July 2021 (481 comments)
Experts are sounding the alarm about the hidden dangers of gas stoves - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25332332 - Dec 2020 (343 comments)
[+] [-] throwaway9191aa|3 years ago|reply
I have a gas stove and I cook all the time. The stove is probably burning for upwards of 20 minutes every single day. Is that really a cause of asthma? If 20 minutes does it, wouldn't cooks (presumably with burning stoves for hours and hours 6 days a week) experience it far greater? Maybe professional kitchens have proper ventilation, so it doesn't matter.
I'm assuming the original study would answer some of these questions.
[+] [-] mikeyouse|3 years ago|reply
Though there have been several pointing out the problematic nature of stoves relating to indoor air quality.
[+] [-] willio58|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nanidin|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] glasss|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mikeyouse|3 years ago|reply
Edit:
One article from the time - it was a regular bugaboo on Rush for half a decade; https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/jul/11/republic...
[+] [-] jmyeet|3 years ago|reply
It could be an issue of ventilation, as in commercial kitchens generally have industrial-grade ventilators (by necessity). I imagine the standards for residential kitchens are a lot more lax.
If a link can be found, wouldn't then the issue be one of a gas stove requiring sufficient ventilation rather than banning them outright?
Gas stoves generally work when there's no power and that's a huge issue for a lot of people. The standard for outright banning gas stoves should be incredibly high.
[+] [-] jcadam|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] willio58|3 years ago|reply
One day I told my partner that I've been feeling super groggy and cloudy-headed for a few months, and we narrowed down the time frame to when I moved into my place. Sure enough, I switch to using a small space heater and two weeks in I'm feeling better than ever before. I 100% attribute the fogginess in my brain to the gas leak. It wasn't enough to cause an explosion, but it doesn't take much to cause serious health problems.
Here's a great video on the topic by Climate Town, an awesome educator on climate change: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hX2aZUav-54
[+] [-] rootusrootus|3 years ago|reply
Like someone else mentioned, you probably had a malfunctioning furnace. Your symptoms match CO poisoning, and carbon monoxide sensors don't usually detect natural gas leaks -- it's a different molecule entirely.
[+] [-] giantg2|3 years ago|reply
A leak itself should not make you groggy - gas workers are exposed to fairly high concentrations without issue. However that is a symptom of CO exposure, and your CO alarm triggered...
[+] [-] sibartlett|3 years ago|reply
That’s a faulty furnace that needs fixing ASAP, you should notify your landlord right away.
Carbon monoxide is caused by poor combustion.
[+] [-] Entinel|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hahajk|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Johnny555|3 years ago|reply
Whether or not the landlord would pay the premium to install one is another question, but they certainly aren’t impossible.
There’s a zero percent chance that existing gas stoves will be banned, that would be an enormous expense for many landlords (thus tenants), even ignoring the cost of wiring new 50 amp range circuits, it may require service upgrades in many older buildings.
[+] [-] JshWright|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] verbify|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ivalm|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] larrywright|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kyleblarson|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rootusrootus|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] parshimers|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bhaney|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] deadbolt|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ezekg|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Overtonwindow|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jcadam|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] techwizrd|3 years ago|reply
> A December 2022 study in the International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health found that indoor gas stove usage is associated with an increased risk of current asthma among children. The study found that almost 13% of current childhood asthma in the US is attributable to gas stove use.
https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/20/1/75
I read the article (4 pages) and it doesn't seem obviously flawed, but the data is very limited and only for 2019. There also isn't really enough information to reproduce the analysis. I hope the CPSC would base their considerations on a larger, more in-depth study (perhaps over time?)
[+] [-] giantg2|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] obpe|3 years ago|reply
Imo, the best thing about gas is the continuous nature of the output and significantly greater range of temperatures gas can hit, ie much lower than electric and induction. I think it is imperative you have a proper ventilation.
I don't like banning things, and think that mandating proper ventilation would be akin anyway, but given it would reduce carbon emissions and fire risk maybe it does make sense for an outright ban.
Honestly, "for the children" is the weakest argument for the ban.
[+] [-] qbrass|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] incomingpain|3 years ago|reply
What % of kids with asthma have a gas range? CPSC report doesn't even mention asthma...
Why can't they mandate ventilation? Why a ban?
How much is government giving to move away from gas?
>a rebate of up to $840 for an electric stove or other electric appliances, and up to an $500 to help cover the costs of converting to electric from gas.
That's not bad. Might be able to convert to induction.
So really they aren't banning natgas, this is all about getting people to pull trigger.
[+] [-] cpleppert|3 years ago|reply
"Over the past several days, there has been a lot of attention paid to gas stove emissions and to the Consumer Product Safety Commission. Research indicates that emissions from gas stoves can be hazardous, and the CPSC is looking for ways to reduce related indoor air quality hazards. But to be clear, I am not looking to ban gas stoves and the CPSC has no proceeding to do so.
CPSC is researching gas emissions in stoves and exploring new ways to address health risks. CPSC also is actively engaged in strengthening voluntary safety standards for gas stoves. And later this spring, we will be asking the public to provide us with information about gas stove emissions and potential solutions for reducing any associated risks. This is part of our product safety mission – learning about hazards and working to make products safer."
[+] [-] throwawayacc3|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hyperbovine|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] skrbjc|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sixstringtheory|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] seanp2k2|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bilsbie|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shemnon42|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] richwater|3 years ago|reply
I'll pass.
[+] [-] mikeyouse|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Marsymars|3 years ago|reply