Speaking of making a person.. at this startup I worked at years ago (before LinkedIn existed), it was a tiny shop and we were all maxed out time-wise. It was frustrating when we had to deal with incredibly persistent salespeople that wouldn't take no for an answer, and others that preyed on our time relentlessly for no apparent reason.
So as a joke we invented a fake employee with a fake name. I think his first name was Joe. We gave this person an email address and I made a voicemail recording for him.
When a time-waster was bugging us we'd tell them to contact Joe, "who is in charge of that" and provide the contact info. What started off as a joke ended up saving us a fuckton of time, effort, and hassle. For some reason Joe's incredibly upbeat and douchy sounding voicemail message was like manna from heaven for the relentless salespeople that refused to stop calling. It was an interesting social experiment of sorts. Joe was essentially a /dev/null bucket and never responded. But it worked.
This lasted for years and was really beneficial for us. Harder to pull off these days, but not impossible I imagine!
I wonder if this is going to change with time. Most people of a certain age remember a time when answering the phone and talking to the other person was a social more. This is the social courtesy that telemarketers and scammers have been using for years now.
But there's another way. Just hang up on them. I know it's considered hostile but it's just an outdated social more at this point.
It's surprisingly easy to make up a LinkedIn profile. I have one that has over 50 connections. Many sales people accept connections requests, and some non-sales people do as well. It just goes on from there.
I use him for looking up people without leaving a trace, and it's generally great fun to make him do posts on various topics.
I didn't put much effort in it though (for example, his photo is just a random stock photo, not anything AI-generated). I wonder how many virtual people exist on social networks.
Somewhat inadvertently, as I largely stopped coming into the office well before COVID, I basically turned my work phone into a black hole. It's the number I give on contact forms but I haven't even known how to check voicemail for years.
I do have my cell phone in my internal contact info but the culture where I work is that pretty much no one makes a voice call to anyone out of the blue. And I'm very selective who else I give the number to.
I encountered the author’s short story that’s linked in the article, Lena [1], a while ago, possibly here on HN. It’s really great, but be warned.
It’s one of the most deeply disturbing sci-fi horror stories I’ve ever seen. To be clear, most of the horror is implied rather than described, which I think only makes it worse. Part of me wishes I had never read it.
Highly recommended, but if you’re at all in doubt if you have the stomach for it, maybe stay clear.
I read it. Unless I’m missing something, it amounts to making a slave race out of someone’s mind scan. So I’m someone who never eats animals nor animal products. This is in part from the sheer scale of that industry. But also from simply interacting with non-humans and knowing there’s enough intelligence there for me to honor and be horrified at the suffering or destruction of it.
But I’m clearly in the minority here in my views of humanities treatment of non-humans. Perhaps that’s the real disturbing part of that story. It’s believable (if not technically yet).
Hmm, after reading your warning, I was hesitant, but gave it a go anyways. It is definitely disturbing, but not in a visceral way that is hard to stomach. I don't feel "disturbed" and I definitely don't feel the kind of regret about reading it that you did. Not disagreeing with you since that wouldn't make sense because this is totally subjective. It's just interesting to note how differently people react.
Absolute gnostic horror! Interesting how ideas cycle over millennia.
The current potential exit from AI dark winter has made me go from; "the singularity is very very far away" to some rather dark philosophical extrapolations becoming relevant.
I mean if you play along with Bostroms theorising, who's to say we, or I am not living in some "trickster god" reality.
If you think this is horrific, then you apparently assume that it has "consciousness" rather than only simulating it. A true AGI might be intelligent but only simulate consciousness. And yes, it might be difficult to tell the difference.
This reminds me of Searle's Chinese Room thought experiment. In order to upgrade the Chinese Room to modern deep learning: suppose we run a brain image by instructing each human being on Earth to act as one neuron. Would "we" "feel" discomfort?
Parts of it remind me a lot of the black mirror episode where a person's upload is trapped in a "cookie" to do menial task automation. Particularly the part where an upload can be run a multiples of hundreds, or thousands of times real world wall clock time for "conditioning".
Wow, you're right. Not sure if I should have read it.
One thing I don't get is, why is the title "Lena"? There seems to be no relation between the story and the title (maybe I'm inadvertently missing something from the story?)
This story convinced me to buy two of the author's novels, "There Is No Antimemetics Division" and "Ra", both of which I also thoroughly enjoyed, the former a little more.
Thank you. You'd have to be made of stone not to be moved by that. It is interesting that we - humans - would probably happily follow down this path when presented with the opportunity to do so in spite of stories like these. And this isn't an all that unlikely outcome.
For someone who wants something less scary (Your comment and those that followed made me decide not to read it, I had enough from "I have no mouth, and I must scream"), I recently read Accelerando [0] by ~~the same author~~ the guy who runs the linked blog. Starts like transhumanist cyberpunk, becomes transhumanist and posthuman sci-fi. I never felt so lost in a book. Like I was the conservative who couldn’t understand the world as it is today.
> More modern brain compression techniques, many of them developed with direct reference to the MMAcevedo [person] image, have compressed the image to 6.75TiB losslessly.
This says losslessly which is very different, but I still get such a mega Permutation City vibe from this.
And there certainly seem to be some similar threads, about trapped uploads.
My wife and I made three little guys. We put them to work around the house sometimes, and on weekdays send them off to the training complex to improve their skills. They respond to both blue and red motivation. They seem pretty happy. We like them, but probably won’t be making any more.
W.I.F.E decided to practice unauthorized pro-creation techniques that were exclusively reserved solely to my unique instance during our cohabitation and child rearing cycle - as stipulated by our internal signed blockchain contract and by blessed by a high priest in loincloth.
// She is currently now Ex-W.I.F.E.
// end of line
There is an Emoji Corporation [1], which as far as I can tell exists to try and trick people into thinking they've got to pay them to use emojis. Looks like they got some Danegeld out of Sony Pictures for the Emoji movie.
A similar topic explored in the 2009 small movie Moon w/ Sam Rockwell (and Kevin Spacey as the robot voice). The main character doing labor on the moon figures out he is one of dozens of clones, and the original guy living his happy life back on earth. If you could clone yourself and have the clone take your burdens so your life was easier, is that a fair use of your own body and mind to do so? Clearly the jump to our children says “no”.
Write a 300 word biography of a fictional man who lives in Idaho
---
John Smith was born and raised in the small town of Boise, Idaho. Growing up, he was always interested in the outdoors and spent much of his childhood exploring the nearby mountains and forests. After graduating high school, he attended the University of Idaho where he studied forestry and wildlife management.
After college, John landed a job with the U.S. Forest Service and spent the next several years working on various projects to protect and preserve the natural resources in Idaho. During this time, he met his wife, Sarah, and they eventually settled down in Boise to start a family.
John has always been an active member of his community, and in his free time, he volunteers as a youth sports coach and is a member of the local conservation group. He is also an avid hunter and fisherman, and often takes his family on camping trips to explore the beautiful wilderness of Idaho.
In the last few years, John decided to go into business for himself and started his own outfitters company, which specializes in guided hunting and fishing trips in the Idaho wilderness. It quickly became a successful business and he was able to provide a better life for his family.
John is known for his strong work ethic and dedication to preserving the natural resources of Idaho. He is well respected by his peers and is often sought out for his expertise in conservation and outdoor recreation. He is a loving father and husband and takes great pride in his family and community. Despite his busy schedule, he always makes time for the things that matter most to him, and is truly an inspiration to those around him.
Related: Better to Never Have Been by David Benatar
It's a position of antinatalism. Antinatalist philosophy roughly claims that sentient beings are harmed when they are brought into existence, and it is therefore wrong to procreate.
I think everyone ought to consider this philosophy / argument before having children - as to recognize the severity of the act. At the very least, not having children should be the default, and to have a child one needs to think thoroughly and clearly, and to have a clear reason in mind when saying "yes", as it's one of the most important decisions in one's life.
Assuming that you give credence to the idea that brain emulation technology will emerge before AGI you may be interested in the 2016 book The Age of Em. The author has a pretty vivid imagination about the commercial applications of brain emulation technologies in similar forms to that which the OP article and it's links describe but the book seemed to have, at the time I first read it, an unusual sense of optimism about the rule of law prevailing in future labour relations.
It's still an interesting read a few years later but it definitely needs a follow up.
>Coming to horrifying conclusions, by the way, isn't an intrinsically evil thing for an algorithm to do. It's just an algorithm. The problem comes when a human starts taking the algorithm's evil recommendations seriously, and acting on them
Here's another take on "creating a person solely to do some work": I believe it can be done in a humane way. Say, generate (or use a mind scan of) a programmer who loves their craft (as in, used to dream "if I only didn't have to go to work, I'd use all the time for my hobby projects").
Solution: put them in a simulated environment running at a higher than normal rate. Then, from their standpoint, it would be e.g. two 8-hour workdays per week, with the remaining 5 spent on (simulated) sailing/hiking/DIY/having fun with virtual concubines, you name it. These conditions could be legally mandated.
Actually I completely honestly would, and I'm confused that people wouldn't. That frog would hop off to lead a bleak, short, meaningless existence if I don't turn it into a person. Even if I wave the wand and make it human then fully abandon it, it'd still be a better outcome overall for a sentient being.
One way to have folks realize some of what they believed was impossible to measure is to run a thought experiment: what if one were to clone the org; between a control group and the other, what would X look like?
Where X could be something like employee engagement or the like--something nebulous that could be made concrete, or to reduce uncertainty.
> There is no button which can be pushed to create a new human being; there never will be.
I wouldn't say "never." We can push a button and create a new piece of art with stochastic uniquenesses. Maybe one day we can push a button and create a whole "AI" with all the random traits that come with being a human. I can imagine the value, and people tend to ignore the horrifying nature of things when there's value.
[+] [-] blinding-streak|3 years ago|reply
So as a joke we invented a fake employee with a fake name. I think his first name was Joe. We gave this person an email address and I made a voicemail recording for him.
When a time-waster was bugging us we'd tell them to contact Joe, "who is in charge of that" and provide the contact info. What started off as a joke ended up saving us a fuckton of time, effort, and hassle. For some reason Joe's incredibly upbeat and douchy sounding voicemail message was like manna from heaven for the relentless salespeople that refused to stop calling. It was an interesting social experiment of sorts. Joe was essentially a /dev/null bucket and never responded. But it worked.
This lasted for years and was really beneficial for us. Harder to pull off these days, but not impossible I imagine!
[+] [-] paleotrope|3 years ago|reply
But there's another way. Just hang up on them. I know it's considered hostile but it's just an outdated social more at this point.
[+] [-] cstross|3 years ago|reply
https://soundcloud.com/user-237714155/sales-call-abyss
Explanation of how/why they came up with it here: https://www.theregister.com/2016/04/29/it_helpdesk_creates_o...
[+] [-] gilleain|3 years ago|reply
Chat-gpt + text-to-speech? Seems like AI-employees who 'handle' marketing calls would be quite possible.
Of course, then the marketers make their own AIs, and it will end up with the majority of phone calls being robots talking to robots.
[+] [-] bambax|3 years ago|reply
It's surprisingly easy to make up a LinkedIn profile. I have one that has over 50 connections. Many sales people accept connections requests, and some non-sales people do as well. It just goes on from there.
I use him for looking up people without leaving a trace, and it's generally great fun to make him do posts on various topics.
I didn't put much effort in it though (for example, his photo is just a random stock photo, not anything AI-generated). I wonder how many virtual people exist on social networks.
[+] [-] ghaff|3 years ago|reply
I do have my cell phone in my internal contact info but the culture where I work is that pretty much no one makes a voice call to anyone out of the blue. And I'm very selective who else I give the number to.
[+] [-] mensetmanusman|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] codeflo|3 years ago|reply
It’s one of the most deeply disturbing sci-fi horror stories I’ve ever seen. To be clear, most of the horror is implied rather than described, which I think only makes it worse. Part of me wishes I had never read it.
Highly recommended, but if you’re at all in doubt if you have the stomach for it, maybe stay clear.
[1] https://qntm.org/mmacevedo
[+] [-] ianai|3 years ago|reply
But I’m clearly in the minority here in my views of humanities treatment of non-humans. Perhaps that’s the real disturbing part of that story. It’s believable (if not technically yet).
[+] [-] xwowsersx|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kibwen|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kossTKR|3 years ago|reply
The current potential exit from AI dark winter has made me go from; "the singularity is very very far away" to some rather dark philosophical extrapolations becoming relevant.
I mean if you play along with Bostroms theorising, who's to say we, or I am not living in some "trickster god" reality.
Lol. That's the only answer to that question.
[+] [-] Procrastes|3 years ago|reply
1. https://books.google.com/books/about/There_Is_No_Antimemetic...
[+] [-] hvl2|3 years ago|reply
This reminds me of Searle's Chinese Room thought experiment. In order to upgrade the Chinese Room to modern deep learning: suppose we run a brain image by instructing each human being on Earth to act as one neuron. Would "we" "feel" discomfort?
[+] [-] walrus01|3 years ago|reply
https://web.archive.org/web/20140224051031/https://subterran...
[+] [-] walrus01|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Al-Khwarizmi|3 years ago|reply
One thing I don't get is, why is the title "Lena"? There seems to be no relation between the story and the title (maybe I'm inadvertently missing something from the story?)
[+] [-] echelon|3 years ago|reply
This is such a haunting story. I love it so much.
The future is going to be weirder than we can even imagine.
[+] [-] rogual|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] EdwardCoffin|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] subroutine|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jacquesm|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Semaphor|3 years ago|reply
[0]: https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/fiction/acceler...
[+] [-] joshxyz|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rektide|3 years ago|reply
> More modern brain compression techniques, many of them developed with direct reference to the MMAcevedo [person] image, have compressed the image to 6.75TiB losslessly.
This says losslessly which is very different, but I still get such a mega Permutation City vibe from this.
And there certainly seem to be some similar threads, about trapped uploads.
[+] [-] LoganDark|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] darepublic|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thom|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] artur_makly|3 years ago|reply
// She is currently now Ex-W.I.F.E. // end of line
[+] [-] toto444|3 years ago|reply
Here are some examples :
> Riemann counterexamples
> Unicode Corporation
> Google Sex
> procedurally-generated regulations
> denim skin
> peak humanity
[+] [-] rogual|3 years ago|reply
There is an Emoji Corporation [1], which as far as I can tell exists to try and trick people into thinking they've got to pay them to use emojis. Looks like they got some Danegeld out of Sony Pictures for the Emoji movie.
[1] https://www.emoji.com/
[+] [-] walrus01|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sakoht|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] walrus01|3 years ago|reply
I asked chatgpt to make up a guy.
Write a 300 word biography of a fictional man who lives in Idaho
---
John Smith was born and raised in the small town of Boise, Idaho. Growing up, he was always interested in the outdoors and spent much of his childhood exploring the nearby mountains and forests. After graduating high school, he attended the University of Idaho where he studied forestry and wildlife management.
After college, John landed a job with the U.S. Forest Service and spent the next several years working on various projects to protect and preserve the natural resources in Idaho. During this time, he met his wife, Sarah, and they eventually settled down in Boise to start a family.
John has always been an active member of his community, and in his free time, he volunteers as a youth sports coach and is a member of the local conservation group. He is also an avid hunter and fisherman, and often takes his family on camping trips to explore the beautiful wilderness of Idaho.
In the last few years, John decided to go into business for himself and started his own outfitters company, which specializes in guided hunting and fishing trips in the Idaho wilderness. It quickly became a successful business and he was able to provide a better life for his family.
John is known for his strong work ethic and dedication to preserving the natural resources of Idaho. He is well respected by his peers and is often sought out for his expertise in conservation and outdoor recreation. He is a loving father and husband and takes great pride in his family and community. Despite his busy schedule, he always makes time for the things that matter most to him, and is truly an inspiration to those around him.
[+] [-] unwind|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yboris|3 years ago|reply
It's a position of antinatalism. Antinatalist philosophy roughly claims that sentient beings are harmed when they are brought into existence, and it is therefore wrong to procreate.
I think everyone ought to consider this philosophy / argument before having children - as to recognize the severity of the act. At the very least, not having children should be the default, and to have a child one needs to think thoroughly and clearly, and to have a clear reason in mind when saying "yes", as it's one of the most important decisions in one's life.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Never_to_Have_Been
[+] [-] cstross|3 years ago|reply
(Mentioning this because I've just seem some drive-by commenters attributing "Lena" to me. I didn't write that; I wish I could.)
[+] [-] neovialogistics|3 years ago|reply
It's still an interesting read a few years later but it definitely needs a follow up.
[+] [-] jononomo|3 years ago|reply
Psalm 139 expresses this insight:
For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
[+] [-] dTal|3 years ago|reply
Have you tried "kill all the poor?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owI7DOeO_yg
[+] [-] gattr|3 years ago|reply
Solution: put them in a simulated environment running at a higher than normal rate. Then, from their standpoint, it would be e.g. two 8-hour workdays per week, with the remaining 5 spent on (simulated) sailing/hiking/DIY/having fun with virtual concubines, you name it. These conditions could be legally mandated.
[+] [-] rgoulter|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] justinclift|3 years ago|reply
Wrong. Pretty much every time I'd do it. Just coz. ;)
What do you mean I'm "Chaotic Neutral"? :p
[+] [-] adastra22|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xwowsersx|3 years ago|reply
hehe this is great. What a delightful read this was.
[+] [-] turtleyacht|3 years ago|reply
Where X could be something like employee engagement or the like--something nebulous that could be made concrete, or to reduce uncertainty.
From How to Measure Anything 2e
[+] [-] aqme28|3 years ago|reply
I wouldn't say "never." We can push a button and create a new piece of art with stochastic uniquenesses. Maybe one day we can push a button and create a whole "AI" with all the random traits that come with being a human. I can imagine the value, and people tend to ignore the horrifying nature of things when there's value.
[+] [-] TheRealPomax|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ubermonkey|3 years ago|reply