I'd like to point out to the folks up at arms that anyone would even consider a job at the NSA, that they might not fully understand the dualilty of the NSA. The SIGINT (signals intelligence) mission of the NSA is constantly in the news and is what folks mostly associate with the NSA. However, it's other mission of Information Assurance/Central Security Service gets little notice which is responsible for defensive security. The hopelessly conflicted nature the NSA is reflected in the title of the NSA's website which is NSA/CSS, and it describes the director of the NSA as "dual-hatted". The CSS/IA portion of the NSA is responsible for protecting the Dept. of Defense from cyber attack. It also helps government agencies, academic instituitions, critical infrastructure providers, and other companies (particularly government contractors) secure their infrastructure from cyber attacks. It also develops standards around the protection of systems and communication links. Unfortunately, this work is tarnished by the SIGINT role of the NSA. Very understandably this leads to a lot of mistrust, like when the NSA proposes cryptography algorithms for example. It also works closely with the NSS who helps produce NIST security standards. Just thought I'd point out the two hats of the NSA, since many folks don't know about this duality. There was some talk about splitting the NSA's dual missions into two agencies, but sadly that died off years ago with nothing being done.
I got the impression that old crook Poindexter and friends decided to go all-offence all the time at the turn of the century. I remember the arguments that since COTS was the future, and industry practices could never be practically hardened without rebuilding our entire software foundations, it was time to give up. The exploit market became regularized, deep, and liquid, and the TIA vision was the mission. Leaving the OPM twisting in the wind for total compromise reinforces the impression that if anyone at the NSA is actually focused on defence, they aren't doing a very good job. That's more than a generation of attack first, defend last. The S-box fix for DES was 50 years ago. Recent crypto contributions seem much less benevolent.
I'm an outsider, and can't really know. I don't doubt your good will, but everything in my career from the Clipper chip fiasco, through Microsoft's incomprehensible 20 year fascination with code-signing in place of actually effective methods, and on up to the present day reinforces this impression.
My understanding is the SIGINT and CSS groups are essentially two separate organizations, somewhat firewalled from each other, with separate reporting chains all the way up to the director of the NSA. Is that true?
The dual hatted nature of DIRNSA has nothing to do with defense vs offense. General Nakasone is in fact a commissioned officer in the US Army. His dual hat is the fact that he is the DIRNSA but also the commanding general of USCYBERCOM. These are his two hats. Also the CSS is also misunderstood in your comment, and has little to nothing to do with the NSA's defensive role.
It's a good job with great benefits, but idk how many FAANG employees wokld be eligible due to Drug Testing or Marijuana requirements (if you smoked within the last 10 years, you're ineligible).
The pay is pretty good for DMV and the hours are great (a strict 40 hours and work doesn't come back home)
edit: according to vlovich123, past drug use won't make you illegible anymore if you stop at the time of hire
> but idk how many FAANG employees wokld be eligible due to Drug Testing or Marijuana requirements (if you smoked within the last 10 years, you're ineligible).
Large numbers of adults have either never smoked, or have not smoked within a decade.
Marijuana use is common, but it's not 100% ubiquitous. It only feels like that when you're in certain social bubbles.
The illegal restriction will definitely reduce the number of applicants, but it's not as severe as you're implying. The number of "boring" adults who work in Big Tech is quite high.
How extensive are the other background checks they perform (information seeking behavior online, contacting elementary school teachers, neighbors, etc.)?
says >"...a strict 40 hours and work doesn't come back home..."<
It is unlikely anyone will throw out an eager beaver working voluntary overtime. Plenty of stories about this in both private and government organizations. In fact, IIRC Snowden mentions working over once or twice.
Here is a useful comment: working for that agency results in a strong technical experience, a security stamp of approval, and a social network that often leads to very high paying contractor jobs or the development of startup businesses that end up being worth tens of millions.
Did you ever wonder why there is so much wealth in the Maryland-DC-Northern Virginia area? Well, now you know.
I always figured that the DC area was wealthy due to mostly political corruption and creating government contracts that enlist a 30 person team over 5 years to design a toilet seat for a plane that will be used twice. I didn't know it was this mecha of tech expertise and problem solving.
There is absolutely money in work that requires a clearance. There always has been.
I would also point out that, historically, a lot of "startup" culture comes directly from people fleeing from the more conservative east cost workplace culture. Consider if you can get the life you want working for a security service.
Obviously making between 100 and 200k is a healthy salary, but we shouldn't pretend that it's at the top of the industry. You're agreeing to a very particular work culture in return for middle-industry compensation.
> working for that agency results in a strong technical experience, a security stamp of approval, and a social network that often leads to very high paying contractor jobs or the development of startup businesses that end up being worth tens of millions.
Even without going into contracting or starting a business, having worked a high level job at an agency like the NSA comes with a resume boost. It may not mean much to a mid-level hiring manager on the west coast who only knows about the NSA from what they read on Twitter, but it carries some weight in communities that understand what goes into these careers.
> Did you ever wonder why there is so much wealth in the Maryland-DC-Northern Virginia area? Well, now you know.
There’s an entire industry built around influencing how the Federal government allocates the vast sums of money that it allocates. Everyone in the industry is wealthy and nearly all of them live in that area. But yeah, it’s because the NSA.
This needs to be upvoted! He's right! DMV has a similar energy and vibe to how the Bay Area felt in the early 2000s, and that's definetly because of the cybersecurity ecosystem that has been cultivated there since Obama 1
To engage with your comment - some of this experience will not be transferable outside government - is this a big problem? Also, is DC really that wealthy, compared to Silicon Valley?
I have worked with a few folks who did stints with various 3 letter government agencies.
My takeaway is that you get to do some very technically interesting and challenging work. But politics, both organizational and electoral, means your cool thing is likely to sit on a shelf. They are good places to be if you like building for the sake of building. Not so good if you like both building and shipping.
When I was at the University of Maryland in the late 70s, we had a student chapter of the ACM that met regularly. Once a year (or semester, I forget) we had "Career Night" when local IT companies would do a presentation of what they had to offer to future comp. sci. grads. We always had a good turn out for Career Night since the vendors provided the refreshments, which were orders of magnitude better that what we had at a regular meeting. NSA was always one of the presenters, and it was an amusing talk because they couldn't really tell us anything about what we'd be doing. They just said they had interesting problems, pretty much any hardware you could name, and decent salaries and benefits. I don't think any of my friends ended up working for them, but I have known quite a few NSA employees over the years. A friend who worked as a Russian language specialist had little good to say about the IT system they had to use. I imagine the cryptanalysts were the ones with the really good systems.
They try their damndest, but the systems can be a hot piece of garbage. That said, it isn't drastically worse than other foreign agencies I've dealt with.
Some years ago there was a "Intelexit" campaign to try persuading
agency staff to quit. Problem with convincing the most morally
upstanding people get out is - who does that leave behind? I'm not
sure bad crowds can be changed from the inside, because you'd have a
hard time smuggling a truly sceptical mind past indoc, but an
optimistic take is you could see this as an opportunity to change
things for the better.
wayrec says >""I got an offer from the NSA" would be a good synonym for "I have a very clean and rather thoroughly checked background"."<
Or perhaps not. Complete the initial phrase: "I got an offer from the NSA to be a hitman." hardly qualifies one for general employment! I would prefer to not be the one who turns down such an applicant for a job.
You'd have to be ok with doing a lot of f-ed up shit working for the NSA. Enough shit to cause someone like Snowden to Exile himself as a whistleblower.
There is no-doubt in my mind a lot of those programs are still running and new ones have been initiated.
Although The government protects whistleblowers, the government does not really protect whistleblowers that whistleblow government shit.
I'd like to work for NSA at one point of my career. I feel like there's a lot of transferrable skills and applications that could benefit future business ventures.
It’s less the NSA specifically and more civil service in general that you should worry about. Civil service is the opposite of everything that you love in big tech - it’s neither fast, nor efficient, nor progressive, the people you work with will not be “best and brightest”, the technology you work with will not be latest and greatest.
You know how anytime you see more then one cop they are always talking about seniority and benefits and how many years, months, and days until their next pay grade or benefit tier kicks in? That will be you every day for thirty years. I knew people who got jobs at NASA, their life long dream, finished their first project in record time - were informed the project was a three year contract so even though they were done they needed to fill the desk for the next two and a half years - so they left.
I'm sure that simply working in big tech is enough to get the attention of the three letter agencies. I'm sure they have the folks that they especially want listed already.
How can one in big tech know that the things that happen in their life are genuine and not due to the influence of an agent who sees this tech worker as a future "agent of change" which needs to be "cultivated"?
How many big tech workers are basically living in a lower stakes lower quality Truman show world ran by the three letter agencies?
[+] [-] infamia|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] michael1999|3 years ago|reply
I'm an outsider, and can't really know. I don't doubt your good will, but everything in my career from the Clipper chip fiasco, through Microsoft's incomprehensible 20 year fascination with code-signing in place of actually effective methods, and on up to the present day reinforces this impression.
[+] [-] daydream|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] halJordan|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] alephnerd|3 years ago|reply
The pay is pretty good for DMV and the hours are great (a strict 40 hours and work doesn't come back home)
edit: according to vlovich123, past drug use won't make you illegible anymore if you stop at the time of hire
[+] [-] PragmaticPulp|3 years ago|reply
Large numbers of adults have either never smoked, or have not smoked within a decade.
Marijuana use is common, but it's not 100% ubiquitous. It only feels like that when you're in certain social bubbles.
The illegal restriction will definitely reduce the number of applicants, but it's not as severe as you're implying. The number of "boring" adults who work in Big Tech is quite high.
[+] [-] vlovich123|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _gmax0|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] giardini|3 years ago|reply
It is unlikely anyone will throw out an eager beaver working voluntary overtime. Plenty of stories about this in both private and government organizations. In fact, IIRC Snowden mentions working over once or twice.
[+] [-] kilgnad|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jschveibinz|3 years ago|reply
Here is a useful comment: working for that agency results in a strong technical experience, a security stamp of approval, and a social network that often leads to very high paying contractor jobs or the development of startup businesses that end up being worth tens of millions.
Did you ever wonder why there is so much wealth in the Maryland-DC-Northern Virginia area? Well, now you know.
[+] [-] Bnichs|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aeturnum|3 years ago|reply
I would also point out that, historically, a lot of "startup" culture comes directly from people fleeing from the more conservative east cost workplace culture. Consider if you can get the life you want working for a security service.
Obviously making between 100 and 200k is a healthy salary, but we shouldn't pretend that it's at the top of the industry. You're agreeing to a very particular work culture in return for middle-industry compensation.
[+] [-] PragmaticPulp|3 years ago|reply
Even without going into contracting or starting a business, having worked a high level job at an agency like the NSA comes with a resume boost. It may not mean much to a mid-level hiring manager on the west coast who only knows about the NSA from what they read on Twitter, but it carries some weight in communities that understand what goes into these careers.
[+] [-] bandyaboot|3 years ago|reply
There’s an entire industry built around influencing how the Federal government allocates the vast sums of money that it allocates. Everyone in the industry is wealthy and nearly all of them live in that area. But yeah, it’s because the NSA.
[+] [-] dsfyu404ed|3 years ago|reply
Nobody who's ever read their pay stub wonders.
[+] [-] Julesman|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ren_engineer|3 years ago|reply
because they are parasites leeching off the tax payers via corruption?
>a social network that often leads to high paying jobs
at least you are honest about it
[+] [-] ourmandave|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alephnerd|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] erehweb|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] whoopdeepoo|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anthomtb|3 years ago|reply
My takeaway is that you get to do some very technically interesting and challenging work. But politics, both organizational and electoral, means your cool thing is likely to sit on a shelf. They are good places to be if you like building for the sake of building. Not so good if you like both building and shipping.
[+] [-] red-iron-pine|3 years ago|reply
Decades of blank DoD checks for ya
[+] [-] zoklet-enjoyer|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] betaby|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aquinas_|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] bobkazamakis|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] rootbear|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tbihl|3 years ago|reply
Same problem as submarine recruiting. Lots of 'really cool' stuff going on, none of it available for discussion.
[+] [-] alephnerd|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nonrandomstring|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] voytec|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Klonoar|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] giardini|3 years ago|reply
Or perhaps not. Complete the initial phrase: "I got an offer from the NSA to be a hitman." hardly qualifies one for general employment! I would prefer to not be the one who turns down such an applicant for a job.
[+] [-] nipponese|3 years ago|reply
Founder: Yong Myung Moon, Founder of the Unification Church
[+] [-] pharmakom|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cgb223|3 years ago|reply
Not sure how requirements work when your “customer” is intelligence chiefs and requirements relate to gaining access to data in …unconventional ways
[+] [-] renewiltord|3 years ago|reply
Then again, they probably both have lots of jobs where they do very little work.
[+] [-] dredmorbius|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kilgnad|3 years ago|reply
There is no-doubt in my mind a lot of those programs are still running and new ones have been initiated.
Although The government protects whistleblowers, the government does not really protect whistleblowers that whistleblow government shit.
[+] [-] philip1209|3 years ago|reply
My impression is that so many people move from IC to Manager at startups because they seek comp increases.
[+] [-] ravagat|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aaomidi|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zxcvbn4038|3 years ago|reply
You know how anytime you see more then one cop they are always talking about seniority and benefits and how many years, months, and days until their next pay grade or benefit tier kicks in? That will be you every day for thirty years. I knew people who got jobs at NASA, their life long dream, finished their first project in record time - were informed the project was a three year contract so even though they were done they needed to fill the desk for the next two and a half years - so they left.
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] Der_Einzige|3 years ago|reply
How can one in big tech know that the things that happen in their life are genuine and not due to the influence of an agent who sees this tech worker as a future "agent of change" which needs to be "cultivated"?
How many big tech workers are basically living in a lower stakes lower quality Truman show world ran by the three letter agencies?
[+] [-] LinuxBender|3 years ago|reply
[1] - https://archive.ph/OPror
[+] [-] oars|3 years ago|reply