Recall when there was an imminent Rail Workers' strike in the news? Which Congress bravely stepped in and prevented? Weren't safety issues like this part of the workers' complaints?
I suspect we're seeing more and more of these issues due to corner cutting in various industries. Air travel has already been a tight margin industry and take at look at all the air related issues we've seen recently, from FAA systems down to mass cancelations due to infrastructure to the recent runway conflicts and accidents we've seen.
Speaking from anecdotal experience, over the years this constant push for more complex and efficient work from individuals has lead to me cutting more corners than I ever wanted to and producing more questionable products and services in the name of efficiency. Hiring contract workers for some household work I've done seems to be a lot of the same as well.
I think we as a society need to come to the realization that growth demands can't always be met by piling more costs and work on people. Much of that rock has been squeezed dry, we need to start looking and managing expectations based on growth from new innovative process changes, technology, or shifts in cultural expectations as far as growth goes, at least that's my opinion for whatever it's worth.
"For an overheating alert, the protocol calls for the train to stop and for the conductor to touch a waxy stick to the suspected defect to see if it melts the wax"
I chuckled to myself a little at the thought of a conductor trying to get through flames to be close enough to touch the waxy stick to the flaming axle.
> There were multiple sightings of axles on fire before the accident
In Germany, we have these hot-box detectors as well - and if they trigger, the train is automatically stopped by dispatch. Wonder what happened in this case.
Here's something for your daily dose of "that's strange:" In 2021 residents of East Palestine, Ohio were extras in filming a train derailment scene for the movie "White Noise"(2022).
"Ratner, 37, is in a traffic jam scene, sitting in a line of cars trying to evacuate after a freight train collided with a tanker truck, triggering an explosion that fills the air with dangerous toxins."
Wow. A disaster scene being filmed for a big-budget movie, and when the same disaster actually happens in the same place, it's largely overlooked - that's exactly the kind of thing that would happen in the book.
White Noise is way older than 2021. I read the book last century. I guess it's a coincidence that this was filmed a bit before an actual airborne toxic event, but I wouldn't think too much about it.
What is very frustrating is that health effects can be slow as in 20-30 years. By then the people who committed the crime are long gone or will claim the statute has expired.
Another thing that is done is just sell the company and then the new owner claims that was the predecessor and that the new company no longer have any liability. Ala Union Carbide or even Monsanto. In fact one company recently said they only by the assets not the liabilities which is absurd (might have been Bayer).
I think the recent example is Johnson & Johnson were they bundled all their asbestos liabilities into a subsidiary which is now bankrupt. Roughly something like that, Matt Levine from Bloomberg had a good write up on it.
My brother lives less than 15 miles downwind from the site of the disaster. He's young, just graduated from trade school, found a welding job in the area and brought his wife and one year-old daughter. In 50 years I'm sure we'll consider this whole region a superfund site and hand out pennies to the people whose lives were completely upended as a result.
It's a travesty how this has been handled. Massively rich corporations deflecting blame, lying to the public, and trying to cover up their own malfeasance in the pursuit of relentless greed. Profits over people, as usual.
I was watching the Ohio governor guarantee the safety of the water and environment there and was just thinking to myself
"This guy will end up eating these words" as well as "this is why i dont like politicians".
He kept quoting the EPA, even after the interviewer mentioned the EPA certificiations didnt consider all the chemicals released. He still kept drilling the science says its fine. As if health science understanding and discoveries arent paved in blood at this point.
If i lived int he region i would probably be considering moving.
> It's a travesty how this has been handled. Massively rich corporations deflecting blame, lying to the public, and trying to cover up their own malfeasance in the pursuit of relentless greed. Profits over people, as usual.
Do you have any evidence of this being mishandled, or is this just parroting the reddit narrative?
I am not one of those supporters, I think. But there is a disconnect here (and I was guilty of it for many years): when regular people think of regulations, they think about sensible rules that protect them, the workers, or the environment.
When lobbyists, industry, and politicians think of regulations, they tend to think mostly about how to protect the established industry from startups. By adding sufficient red tape in places where it's not really required, they can effectively create moats for existing oligopolies.
In this case, the bad regulation that shouldn’t have happened was when Congress stepped in and broke a strike. Perhaps if the union was allowed to freely negotiate with a strike, this wouldn’t have happened?
Well you know how they always say "the market will regulate itself"? The issue they like to forget is that you or a family member may be part of the first 346 dead from the Boeing Max disaster or you live in Palestine, Ohio before the market regulates itself.
Reminding me of my younger days, during my lolbertarian phase where I thought people would do the right thing and have safety procedures in place because "market forces" would shut them down if people died. To be that naive again...
The immediate aftermath of a catastrophic failure of the regulatory state seems like an odd moment to take smug shots at opponents of the regulatory state.
If a car ran off a cliff you’d say “I see the advocates for using the brakes are strangely absent” and if a car got hit by a train sitting on the tracks you’d say “I see the advocates for using the accelerator are strangely absent.” Nobody is against regulation and nobody is for it. It’s like saying people are pro water or anti water.
> Residents are concerned about long-term effects of low-grade exposure.
> “There’s all that smoke and all those chemicals in there,” said Mason Shields, who lives in East Palestine and visited an aid center outside the evacuation zone. “I’m wondering if it’s even going to be safe for people to return within the next week or month or however long.”
Generally speaking, I read the news because I want to learn facts about a topic.
If I wanted to read the thoughts of some random person who is feeling anxious about something they’re ignorant about, I would go on social media.
Peoples' feelings and sentiments about things that are happening are also facts, and none too unimportant, since feelings and sentiments are often the basis for their decisions or their government's decisions, which results in new facts.
Yes, we want factual reporting, but that people have emotions and fears is also a fact, that has influence on future events.
> If I wanted to read the thoughts of some random person who is feeling anxious about something they’re ignorant about, I would go on social media.
It's one thing to ask random Joe on the streets if he's fine with immigration. That's pretty pointless.
But asking someone directly affected from a natural disaster or industrial accident by living right next to it? That's the kind of journalism that is needed, because it points out the answers that experts absolutely must provide.
How much should people care about this who live in various radiuses? I.e., within 200 miles, is there zero cause for concern? Or is the type of thing that will do something like remove five years of life on average for people within five miles, one year within 100 miles, one month within 300 miles, etc.?
I know nothing about this field but I remember when California had really bad wildfires, when it was happening (in 2020 or 2021? It all blends together) there were charts showing air quality levels across the US. I'm in NY and I visibly saw different colored clouds when the "smoke clouds" made their way over here. I have no idea if the same thing applies to this train's chemicals but that is a case where there was a coast to coast impact on something that travels in the air.
We should all be concerned no matter the radius. This will happen elsewhere if nothing is done to address the issues. And right now, far too many people are silent on this.
Reddit (and now HN) is the only source that shows this on the front page - I wouldn't have heard about it otherwise. Corporate news outlets have kept it from the front page.
It would actually be interesting to take a vacation to the media bubble of someone who thinks that there is not a huge problem there. Painting in broad strokes, the distrust is there for the "first, distrust corporations" left and the "first, distrust the media and big government" right. I don't imagine there are many people wholly outside those camps, at least not on something like this.
Some of the best reporting on this with actual data is coming from social media (as usual), versus from official sources. Here is someone reviewing the manifest of chemicals and number of spilled train cars: https://www.tiktok.com/@nickdrom/video/7199486059212868910
Another example of people not taking into account the full life cycle of the products they purchase. Vinyl chloride was one of the main toxic chemicals dumped in this derailment and it is used to make PVC. You might want to think twice about using vinyl siding, windows, flooring, etc..
Vinyl chloride. I'm surprised they decided to burn it instead of attempting to contain and recover it, because it surely would've been worth something?
1. Rail companies slashed their workforce for short-term profits and share buybacks, cheered on by Wall Street [1]. Rail workers do not get paid sick leave because of those cuts, prompting Congress to step in an kneecap industrial action aimed at improving safety and working conditions [2];
2. Obama era rules were proposed for safer brakes (that would've prevented this incident). After lobbying by rail companies, those rules were weakened. The Trump administration scrapped them entirely. The Biden administration and Secretary of Transportation Buttigieg declined to reinstate those rules, let alone make them as tough as originally intended [3];
3. There are legitimate concerns that this has poisoned the water supply (eg [1]). There are other reports of animals left in East Palestine during evacuation have died;
4. One of the chemicals released (and burned) is vinyl chloride, which becomes hydrochloric acid in contact with water (including moiture in the air).
5. The EPA is doing air testing (eg [5]). Note the company contracted to do the test results: Tetra Tech. This is the same company the US government sued (and some individuals went to prison for) fraud ie falsifying testing to make things appear safer [6].
6. When a reporter starting asking questions at a news conference about the derailment, such as whether efficiency practices like PSR contributed to the accident, he was arrested [7];
7. There seems to be little media coverage for what could be an environmental catastrophe.
8. All this while just last week, Biden in the State of the Union address said "Corporations ought to do the right thing" [8]. The only way they will is if you, the government, make them or they sufficiently fear the consequences of not doign the right thing. Why would they when the entire political establishment defends corporate interests (eg against rail workers)?
Fines and possibly some payout after a decade of litigation are just the cost of doing business. The leaders responsible for this should end up in jail.
[+] [-] h2odragon|3 years ago|reply
There were multiple sightings of axles on fire before the accident: https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2023/02/10/...
[+] [-] Frost1x|3 years ago|reply
Speaking from anecdotal experience, over the years this constant push for more complex and efficient work from individuals has lead to me cutting more corners than I ever wanted to and producing more questionable products and services in the name of efficiency. Hiring contract workers for some household work I've done seems to be a lot of the same as well.
I think we as a society need to come to the realization that growth demands can't always be met by piling more costs and work on people. Much of that rock has been squeezed dry, we need to start looking and managing expectations based on growth from new innovative process changes, technology, or shifts in cultural expectations as far as growth goes, at least that's my opinion for whatever it's worth.
[+] [-] colpabar|3 years ago|reply
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/norfolk-southern-giving-25-00...
[+] [-] alias_neo|3 years ago|reply
I chuckled to myself a little at the thought of a conductor trying to get through flames to be close enough to touch the waxy stick to the flaming axle.
[+] [-] overthemoon|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mschuster91|3 years ago|reply
In Germany, we have these hot-box detectors as well - and if they trigger, the train is automatically stopped by dispatch. Wonder what happened in this case.
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] colpabar|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] lylejantzi3rd|3 years ago|reply
"Ratner, 37, is in a traffic jam scene, sitting in a line of cars trying to evacuate after a freight train collided with a tanker truck, triggering an explosion that fills the air with dangerous toxins."
https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/11/health/ohio-train-derailment-...
[+] [-] dcist|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] npilk|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jordigh|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sschueller|3 years ago|reply
Another thing that is done is just sell the company and then the new owner claims that was the predecessor and that the new company no longer have any liability. Ala Union Carbide or even Monsanto. In fact one company recently said they only by the assets not the liabilities which is absurd (might have been Bayer).
[+] [-] molopolo24|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kibwen|3 years ago|reply
It's a travesty how this has been handled. Massively rich corporations deflecting blame, lying to the public, and trying to cover up their own malfeasance in the pursuit of relentless greed. Profits over people, as usual.
[+] [-] croutonwagon|3 years ago|reply
"This guy will end up eating these words" as well as "this is why i dont like politicians".
He kept quoting the EPA, even after the interviewer mentioned the EPA certificiations didnt consider all the chemicals released. He still kept drilling the science says its fine. As if health science understanding and discoveries arent paved in blood at this point.
If i lived int he region i would probably be considering moving.
[+] [-] pokey00|3 years ago|reply
Do you have any evidence of this being mishandled, or is this just parroting the reddit narrative?
[+] [-] mattacular|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] flavius29663|3 years ago|reply
When lobbyists, industry, and politicians think of regulations, they tend to think mostly about how to protect the established industry from startups. By adding sufficient red tape in places where it's not really required, they can effectively create moats for existing oligopolies.
[+] [-] Kerrick|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sschueller|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rubyist5eva|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] marcusverus|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mri_mind|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nonethewiser|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aaron695|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] runako|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] BaculumMeumEst|3 years ago|reply
> “There’s all that smoke and all those chemicals in there,” said Mason Shields, who lives in East Palestine and visited an aid center outside the evacuation zone. “I’m wondering if it’s even going to be safe for people to return within the next week or month or however long.”
Generally speaking, I read the news because I want to learn facts about a topic.
If I wanted to read the thoughts of some random person who is feeling anxious about something they’re ignorant about, I would go on social media.
[+] [-] zelphirkalt|3 years ago|reply
Yes, we want factual reporting, but that people have emotions and fears is also a fact, that has influence on future events.
[+] [-] JustSomeNobody|3 years ago|reply
Therefore, these ARE facts.
[+] [-] sn41|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mschuster91|3 years ago|reply
It's one thing to ask random Joe on the streets if he's fine with immigration. That's pretty pointless.
But asking someone directly affected from a natural disaster or industrial accident by living right next to it? That's the kind of journalism that is needed, because it points out the answers that experts absolutely must provide.
[+] [-] krolden|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] YPCrumble|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nickjj|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JustSomeNobody|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] beowulfey|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] YPCrumble|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tbihl|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aphexddb|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RobotToaster|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sschueller|3 years ago|reply
Infuriating.
[+] [-] destitude|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gonzo41|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] syntaxing|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] userbinator|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jmyeet|3 years ago|reply
1. Rail companies slashed their workforce for short-term profits and share buybacks, cheered on by Wall Street [1]. Rail workers do not get paid sick leave because of those cuts, prompting Congress to step in an kneecap industrial action aimed at improving safety and working conditions [2];
2. Obama era rules were proposed for safer brakes (that would've prevented this incident). After lobbying by rail companies, those rules were weakened. The Trump administration scrapped them entirely. The Biden administration and Secretary of Transportation Buttigieg declined to reinstate those rules, let alone make them as tough as originally intended [3];
3. There are legitimate concerns that this has poisoned the water supply (eg [1]). There are other reports of animals left in East Palestine during evacuation have died;
4. One of the chemicals released (and burned) is vinyl chloride, which becomes hydrochloric acid in contact with water (including moiture in the air).
5. The EPA is doing air testing (eg [5]). Note the company contracted to do the test results: Tetra Tech. This is the same company the US government sued (and some individuals went to prison for) fraud ie falsifying testing to make things appear safer [6].
6. When a reporter starting asking questions at a news conference about the derailment, such as whether efficiency practices like PSR contributed to the accident, he was arrested [7];
7. There seems to be little media coverage for what could be an environmental catastrophe.
8. All this while just last week, Biden in the State of the Union address said "Corporations ought to do the right thing" [8]. The only way they will is if you, the government, make them or they sufficiently fear the consequences of not doign the right thing. Why would they when the entire political establishment defends corporate interests (eg against rail workers)?
Fines and possibly some payout after a decade of litigation are just the cost of doing business. The leaders responsible for this should end up in jail.
[1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/railroads-ar...
[2]: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/why-congress-is-interve...
[3]: https://jacobin.com/2023/02/department-of-transportation-tra...
[4]: https://www.fastcompany.com/90848025/ohio-train-derailment-t...
[5]: https://response.epa.gov/sites/15933/files/Roving%20Air%20Mo...
[6]: https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/U-S-sues-Tetra-T...
[7]: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/08/us/ohio-train-derailment-...
[8]: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/20...
[+] [-] fedreserved|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] Chronoyes|3 years ago|reply
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