Modern Apple keyboards look beautiful sitting in a pristine environment, but the lack of key travel, too-flat form factor, and decent spacing makes typing unpleasant.
My old Extended Keyboard takes up more space on my desk than my laptop does. It's noisy as hell. It's about as pretty as a Soviet gas station. And I can type all day long on it without my hands ever tiring.
Very similar layout, with a smaller form factor, non mechanical but to me it feels just as good, and it features an USB hub. My preferred keyboard at home and at work, along with some ControllerMate magic to turn the Help key into something more useful.
PS: it also has a delete (Ctrl-D) key to the right of backspace (Ctrl-H), in the usual PC position.
I also use an original Apple Extended Keyboard. Mine features a surprisingly simple hardware hack to convert the mechanical Caps Lock into a Control key.
One feature of this keyboard that I unfortunately discovered by accident is that the Command+Control+Power keystroke does a hard reboot on modern Macs, just as it did on the old Mac SE and Apple IIgs.
Definitely a matter of taste, I have the newer style Apple keyboard on all my keyboards for the same reason, my hands get tired almost immediately when I have to use something else. The key travel (especially on the ergonomic ones) seems excessive.
Keep in mind that the Das and Model M are vastly different keyboards. The Model M switches require a bone-crushing 80g to activate the switches, while the Cherry switches are in the 50g range. Compare this to the 30g activation pressure on a Topre Realforce's pinky keys.
(Yes, I know that key activation pressure is measured in newtons, not grams, but since we're all on Earth here, we can deal :)
I don't know about that. The current Apple keyboards are fantastic once you get used to them. My only complaint is that the caps wear down slightly faster than other keyboards because the plastic flakes off more easily under heavy wear.
If you're a mechanical nut, you still have the Matias Tactile Pro (http://matias.ca/tactilepro3/index.php) which has the added bonus of not just the proper keycaps, but the indicators for the additional characters possible with option and shift.
It's interesting to analyze what that decided to put on the front page as their key features:
- 3 points (#2, #3 and #8) related to USB functionality
- 3 essentially identical points (#5, #6 and #7) about what type of keys they have
- Only points #1 and #4 are something that could be considered as real differentiator by a layman
- Gold-plated contacts are mentioned 4(!) times on the first page - I wonder if they provide any advantage over silver or metal ones
- They also mention Darth Vader(!) somewhere on their front page
- They also have a chart that should communicate some additional value that the keyboard provides (and it probably does)
Overall, my impression is that they overdid their marketing. Thoughts?
Update: They also mention (in a system requirements sections that nobody reads) that to use the hub functionality, you would need to occupy two ports of your mac, not one, which somewhat lessens the value proposition
Silver is a fantastic conductor, better than copper, but tarnishes far too quickly for contacts that are expected to actuate consistently over a prolonged period of time. This is a problem because silver oxides are poor conductors (as are copper oxides). Gold is an inferior conductor to silver and copper, but not by that much and it doesn't tarnish. But is it relevant? That depends on the technology you build the keyboard out of, but I think the answer is probably a firm "maybe".
As far as technology: there are basically three major varieties. One has a plastic membrane that separates two conductive surfaces; physical pressure forces the two surfaces in contact and actuates the key. These are usually fairly large contact surfaces and also are relatively sealed, but you can get situations where you need to press harder on the key to get it to actuate, and if little bits of crap get between the surfaces then the key is pretty well dead. There are a variety of ways of forcing that actuation; simple physical pressure (your microwave pad), a plunger (less prone to troublesome false actuations), the scissor switches you see in laptops or the modern Apple keyboards, but they're all basically similar as far as electrical conductivity and tend to fail in relatively similar ways.
The Model M is actually a membrane like this under the surface, but the membrane is almost totally sealed off and is operated by extremely reliable and powerful (well, for a keyboard) actuator--the buckling spring operates a small lever in the guts of the keyboard, pressing the devices in contact. As a result they get excellent lifetime and a very consistent and desirable action. The size of the lever and the distance between the key and the actuation (and also the sheer size of a Model M) mean that the contact surfaces can be relatively large. Earlier IBM keyboards used a capacitive action which is very rare today; the only one I know of is the Happy Hacking Keyboard.
The Cherry MX switches the Das uses have a mechanical switch that makes and breaks contact on every keystroke. They are mechanically more compact than the buckling spring type with similarly desirable key action, but the switch means they need to be made in a very durable way. Cherry says the MXs are good for 50 million operations; I don't know how many operations IBM guaranteed theirs for but I'm sitting next to one made in 1989 so I presume it is "a lot".
Which is a lot of words to say that "gold might make a difference and anyway Cherry doesn't sell good switches without the gold plating and they're the only people of any repute making those type of keys any more".
Edit: one other further irritation for people who type fast; N-key rollover is a term you may have heard of. On a PS/2 keyboard, you can literally activate every key on the keyboard at once and the computer can track them all. This is because the PS/2 tracks key up and key down events but doesn't try to keep state so much. USB does and because of this true N-key rollover is impossible without custom software on both ends; the best we can do is I think six, so in this case the Das is state of the art, such as it is. Supposedly the v4 Sidewinder got around this, probably through a custom driver mode.
HHKB has DIP switches to select mac/non-mac modes. Mac mode works well in Linux as well. Also: Small footprint, if you can live without a number pad. I love the feel.
FYI, you also have the option of using the standard Das, and just switching the Alt and Command keys in the Apple keyboard settings dialog (under special keys). It is really easy to use a PC keyboard with a Mac seamlessly. Wish the same was true of the other way around.
Are you referring to Apple's Alu keyboard? I'm using Matias TactilePro Mac keyabord at work, on a typical Windows PC. No issues here - Command becomes Win and all is well.
When will we finally get rid of the numerical pad?
The now discontinued HP mini keyboard [1] was exactly as I thought all the keyboards would had been past 2005. Exactly the full size layout, just without the unnecessary numerical pad whose only use it to keep the mouse far away from my right hand.
Plenty of companies (Filco, Leopold, PFU / Fujitsu (Happy Hacking), Topre, etc.) offer 'tenkeyless' versions of their boards that are without the numeric keypad.
They've had a Linux key option [1] for a while :) Much more awesome. I considered getting them even though I have the blank version (which is, incidentally, great).
I switched from a Model M to the default iMac keyboard (the wired one with the number pad) back in August when I switched to from linux to an iMac and it's taken me until just recently, to get used to it. I still don't like the feel of the keyboard quite as much and have been tempted to buy the Unicomp keyboard many times. That said, I do find it more comfortable than most other non-mechanical keyboards out there.
I've had several offers from people wanting to buy the Model M, but I refuse to part with it, even if I'm not using it at this very moment. I found it years ago, in the back of a storage shed, covered in about a decade of dust, grease, and cob webs, cleaned it up, and it looks practically new and works perfectly. I do so love that keyboard.
Why would somebody buy this? It just sounds like a step backwards in keyboard design to make keyboards that contribute to noise pollution. I hope Apple does produce more ergonomic keyboards in the future. In my honest opinion the Microsoft Natural Keyboard is probably the best Keyboard created thus far and I have yet to see anyone innovate any further since it was released 10 years ago: http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-A11-00337-Natural-Keyboard-E...
Does anyone know of a good mechanical keyboard which also has a mouse num between the keys. Or should I be convinced of why that is such a horrible idea.
damn, I just switched to a microsoft 4000 ergo keyboard. I'm tempted to order one of these now because I don't think I'm sold on the ergo arrangement yet (I've only had it about a week though). Wish I saved the box for that keyboard :/
Anyone used both and can convince me not to order one of the Das'?
I don't own a Das; instead I have two of Unicomp's (http://pckeyboard.com) keyboards. Either one is miles more comfortable to type on than anything else I've ever used, most certainly including the Microsoft ergo keyboards. That said I should note that I'm partial to making a hell of a racket typing and I really really like the buckling spring action. If for some reason you don't want to sound like an entire rifle company out for a day at the range the quiet Cherry switches are pretty much the only game in town, and you might as well get them from Das as from anywhere else.
FWIW: The Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 was causing me RSI (I found the spacebar too hard to hit and several keys started malfunctioning after nearly one year). Design-wise I found it good enough (especially for the palm rest and layout as a whole) but I think they should seriously reconsider the quality of their key switches.
I since then switched to a customized keyboard made by Unicomp and couldn't look back. The buckling springs may feel a little bit too hard at first, but over time I found them to soften.
Yeah, I was burned by the same problem with the razer mechanical keyboards. No noticeable keypress feel improvement, and hideously loud; waste of money.
[+] [-] jaysonelliot|14 years ago|reply
It requires a rather hefty ADB to USB adapter, which ran me about fifty bucks (http://www.amazon.com/Griffin-2001-ADB-iMate-Universal-adapt...) but to me, it was worth it.
Modern Apple keyboards look beautiful sitting in a pristine environment, but the lack of key travel, too-flat form factor, and decent spacing makes typing unpleasant.
My old Extended Keyboard takes up more space on my desk than my laptop does. It's noisy as hell. It's about as pretty as a Soviet gas station. And I can type all day long on it without my hands ever tiring.
[+] [-] guylhem|14 years ago|reply
Very similar layout, with a smaller form factor, non mechanical but to me it feels just as good, and it features an USB hub. My preferred keyboard at home and at work, along with some ControllerMate magic to turn the Help key into something more useful.
PS: it also has a delete (Ctrl-D) key to the right of backspace (Ctrl-H), in the usual PC position.
[+] [-] thought_alarm|14 years ago|reply
One feature of this keyboard that I unfortunately discovered by accident is that the Command+Control+Power keystroke does a hard reboot on modern Macs, just as it did on the old Mac SE and Apple IIgs.
[+] [-] efsavage|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jseliger|14 years ago|reply
2) The Das Keyboard is nice but still not as good as Model M / Unicomp SpaceSaver: http://jseliger.com/2009/11/01/product-review-das-keyboard/ . I used the review copy with an iMac.
3) Virtually any mechanical keyboard is a HUGE improvement on the default keyboards that most manufacturers ship.
[+] [-] jrockway|14 years ago|reply
(Yes, I know that key activation pressure is measured in newtons, not grams, but since we're all on Earth here, we can deal :)
[+] [-] astrodust|14 years ago|reply
If you're a mechanical nut, you still have the Matias Tactile Pro (http://matias.ca/tactilepro3/index.php) which has the added bonus of not just the proper keycaps, but the indicators for the additional characters possible with option and shift.
[+] [-] vtail|14 years ago|reply
- 3 points (#2, #3 and #8) related to USB functionality
- 3 essentially identical points (#5, #6 and #7) about what type of keys they have
- Only points #1 and #4 are something that could be considered as real differentiator by a layman
- Gold-plated contacts are mentioned 4(!) times on the first page - I wonder if they provide any advantage over silver or metal ones
- They also mention Darth Vader(!) somewhere on their front page
- They also have a chart that should communicate some additional value that the keyboard provides (and it probably does)
Overall, my impression is that they overdid their marketing. Thoughts?
Update: They also mention (in a system requirements sections that nobody reads) that to use the hub functionality, you would need to occupy two ports of your mac, not one, which somewhat lessens the value proposition
[+] [-] gchpaco|14 years ago|reply
As far as technology: there are basically three major varieties. One has a plastic membrane that separates two conductive surfaces; physical pressure forces the two surfaces in contact and actuates the key. These are usually fairly large contact surfaces and also are relatively sealed, but you can get situations where you need to press harder on the key to get it to actuate, and if little bits of crap get between the surfaces then the key is pretty well dead. There are a variety of ways of forcing that actuation; simple physical pressure (your microwave pad), a plunger (less prone to troublesome false actuations), the scissor switches you see in laptops or the modern Apple keyboards, but they're all basically similar as far as electrical conductivity and tend to fail in relatively similar ways.
The Model M is actually a membrane like this under the surface, but the membrane is almost totally sealed off and is operated by extremely reliable and powerful (well, for a keyboard) actuator--the buckling spring operates a small lever in the guts of the keyboard, pressing the devices in contact. As a result they get excellent lifetime and a very consistent and desirable action. The size of the lever and the distance between the key and the actuation (and also the sheer size of a Model M) mean that the contact surfaces can be relatively large. Earlier IBM keyboards used a capacitive action which is very rare today; the only one I know of is the Happy Hacking Keyboard.
The Cherry MX switches the Das uses have a mechanical switch that makes and breaks contact on every keystroke. They are mechanically more compact than the buckling spring type with similarly desirable key action, but the switch means they need to be made in a very durable way. Cherry says the MXs are good for 50 million operations; I don't know how many operations IBM guaranteed theirs for but I'm sitting next to one made in 1989 so I presume it is "a lot".
Which is a lot of words to say that "gold might make a difference and anyway Cherry doesn't sell good switches without the gold plating and they're the only people of any repute making those type of keys any more".
Edit: one other further irritation for people who type fast; N-key rollover is a term you may have heard of. On a PS/2 keyboard, you can literally activate every key on the keyboard at once and the computer can track them all. This is because the PS/2 tracks key up and key down events but doesn't try to keep state so much. USB does and because of this true N-key rollover is impossible without custom software on both ends; the best we can do is I think six, so in this case the Das is state of the art, such as it is. Supposedly the v4 Sidewinder got around this, probably through a custom driver mode.
[+] [-] dotBen|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thomanil|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sjs|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Adaptive|14 years ago|reply
http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=pfu_keyboards,hhk...
[+] [-] jamesaguilar|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bnastic|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rdamico|14 years ago|reply
Reusable Earplugs: "Multi-use, comfortable earplugs for co-workers or significant others of Das Keyboard Professional or Das Keyboard Ultimate users."
[+] [-] gioele|14 years ago|reply
The now discontinued HP mini keyboard [1] was exactly as I thought all the keyboards would had been past 2005. Exactly the full size layout, just without the unnecessary numerical pad whose only use it to keep the mouse far away from my right hand.
[1] http://www.amazon.com/HP-AS601AA-ABA-Mini-Keyboard/dp/B0025Z...
[+] [-] yvdriess|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yankcrime|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] utexaspunk|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tikhonj|14 years ago|reply
[1]: http://store.daskeyboard.com/Linux-Key-Caps-2-keys/dp/B004JP...
[+] [-] learc83|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kellishaver|14 years ago|reply
The one pictured is hideously ugly, though.
I switched from a Model M to the default iMac keyboard (the wired one with the number pad) back in August when I switched to from linux to an iMac and it's taken me until just recently, to get used to it. I still don't like the feel of the keyboard quite as much and have been tempted to buy the Unicomp keyboard many times. That said, I do find it more comfortable than most other non-mechanical keyboards out there.
I've had several offers from people wanting to buy the Model M, but I refuse to part with it, even if I'm not using it at this very moment. I found it years ago, in the back of a storage shed, covered in about a decade of dust, grease, and cob webs, cleaned it up, and it looks practically new and works perfectly. I do so love that keyboard.
[+] [-] dekz|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yongshin|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dekz|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] utexaspunk|14 years ago|reply
http://pckeyboard.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Store_Code=PCK&Sc...
[+] [-] dchuk|14 years ago|reply
Anyone used both and can convince me not to order one of the Das'?
[+] [-] gchpaco|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lvillani|14 years ago|reply
I since then switched to a customized keyboard made by Unicomp and couldn't look back. The buckling springs may feel a little bit too hard at first, but over time I found them to soften.
[+] [-] wazoox|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] user24|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jergosh|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] maggit|14 years ago|reply
I've successfully bought a Das Keyboard from GetDigital: http://www.getdigital.de/products/Das_Keyboard_Model_S
It even let me brush up on my German :)
[+] [-] chrismsnz|14 years ago|reply
http://www.daskeyboard.com/where-to-buy/
[+] [-] aymeric|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sp332|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] clux|14 years ago|reply