I have a pet theory that the role of old school sysadmins (what we refer to as DevOps today; yes Sysadmins coded, or the good ones did, I will die on this hill) was strangely attractive to those who would assuredly be diagnosed with ADHD.
You have endless areas to noodle on solutions to avoid issues; you work hard to avoid working hard (strong ADHD trait) and interruptions are either fine and they fuel you completely: or you cannot work with interruptions at all.
Anecdotally: I was a sysadmin (that coded) and I got pretty close to an ADHD diagnosis but was warned off of it by the Swedish health authority (I've talked about it before on HN; basically that my insurances would increase and it could affect mortgages, cannot hold certain vehicle licenses etc;).
It affects your insurance? MORTGAGES? What the hell? In the US, the only external downside of ADHD is when you change doctors and the new one automatically assumes you're trying to swindle them to get Adderal, so they make you do another psych evaluation that will inevitably say the same thing as the last one. Defibutely doesn't affect mortgages. I doubt that it would affect vehicle licenses.
I wonder at what point is XYZ job within tech better for those with ADHD, or is especially challenging.
I’ve made many stupid small mistakes where someone checks my code in review and finds a small error, or I forget to run the unit test suite (we don’t currently have an auto-testing pipeline) where it’s led me to question my career.
On the other hand, what you describe fits very well with my experiences, endless tasks to do (especially in a “many hats” role), and working hard to avoid work.
Side note: For how well the Swedish system works, I’m surprised that they can do that based on such diagnosis. Affect, mortgages? That’s insane. +1 to the states on that one.
As an ex-sys admin, couldn't agree more with your pet theory. Many of us thrive when there's a sense of urgency ... but then can feel pretty unproductive during times of calm.
I appreciate the article's efforts to raise awareness, that said, as a developer with ADHD I wish 'hyperfocus' wasn't always trotted out as a kind of ADHD superpower. The inability to control your attention in order to achieve complex tasks and effect desired outcomes is ADHD. So called 'hyperfocus' is just as likely to waste your time on something unrelated and unhelpful to what you want to do. It's like telling a sleepwalker "Hey, cheer up, sometimes you end up in the office and you can skip your commute!"
It's so annoying to have people that think they are just doing the 'don't throw the baby out with the bath water' but being honest how good can an executive function disability be?
It's like everyone is climbing a mountain, and they are wearing snow shoes, but I'm stuck with normal boots or worse. However, when I start having fun climbing I plucked off the ground by a ski lift that takes me to a random place up the mountain. If I'm travelling in groups or trying to reach a certain place, to not get lost I have to jump off the lift. Then I'm back to walking on foot, hurt but in an ache but not an actual damage and I have to try to keep up with the snow shoe folk again.
I've recently been able to crystalize this as "Hyperfocus is just concentration you don't control". Concentration: that thing non-ADHD people can do too.
I've been diagnosed with ADHD 4 times by 4 separate qualified clinicians and stimulant medication undoubtedly makes me more effective, so asked and answered I guess.
But I sort of philosophically struggle with the "disorder" bit of it. I live in a box with a glass wall facing other boxes with glass walls and type into a computer screen any time that I'm not actively going to the gym or doing something outdoors becuase the default thing I do is try to create enough material prosperity to exist.
This seems like something that would have a caveman climbing the walls, which is roughly how I feel about the glass box / computer screen routine when I'm not on ADHD medication.
Is is "neurotypical" to be perfectly at ease spending hours hunched in front of a screen under artifical light in order to eat, or is it "neurotypical" to be fantasizing that the pool cue next to my monitor would fly pretty straight if a lion walked through the door?
“Neurotypical” has to do with ability to function at a fundamental level. If neurotypical person is interested in something, they are likely to be fine doing that thing. But they can also chose not to do it.
Someone with ADHD has trouble controlling attention. To be a disorder, this needs to be severe enough to limit you.
There is a significant overlap in behavior with neurotypical and neurodivergent people. What separates them is what is driving that behavior.
In my experience: yes, programming often pairs well with ADHD because it’s an ongoing stream of novel problems to solve.
That said, as we’ve injected more and more process into software development over the last decade or so I’ve found it harder and harder to engage. I respect its necessity but JIRA is nearly the opposite of the exploratory experience of programming.
I have an ADHD diagnosis and completely agree. The process has become soul crushing. If left to my own devices I would find plenty to do and I would enjoy it so so much more.
Just a couple days ago, my wife and I were having this same exact conversation. In fact, I wonder if big tech company — as dystopian as this sounds — tries to attract individuals that exhibit strong ADHD traits.
Side note: I'm 34 years old and just 3 days ago, was evaluated by a psychiatrist and was diagnosed with adult ADHD.
Anyone have tips for how they manage their ADHD, specifically when you aren't able to get yourself motivated at all with the task at hand or feel like you have too may balls to juggle?
I really struggle with yak shaving and perfection being the enemy of good as well, my ADHD often devolves into OCD like behaviors.
For procrastination - body doubling. It's very effective, easy to test, and works immediately. After an hour, you will know whether it works for you or not. You don't need to read a book or train for it; you don't get better at it. If you procrastinate a lot, this is the first method I would suggest.
I don't know if I have ADHD, but I'm definitely a chronic, severe procrastinator. I've been looking for a method to overcome it for 20 years. Finally, I tried body doubling, and it was like magic: suddenly, I became productive. I immediately made a drastic decision to hire someone to sit with me every day. I was a software developer, so going from 2-3h billable hours to 6-7h/day was well worth the expense. I hired a stay-at-home dad, and we connected every morning to work together (well, I was working, he played games and watched Netflix ;-)
Now, disclosure and shameless plug. Body doubling was such a life changer for me that I co-founded https://workmode.net/ - basically body doubling as a service for chronic procrastinators. It's tailored to people who need it for work (basically full-time body doubling). If you want to give it a try - we have 1-click demo session.
For acute (non-chronic), mild procrastinators, Focusmate might be a good choice too.
There’s no magic solution to this, otherwise ADHD wouldn’t be a disorder.
With too many things to juggle, you have to face the reality and drop some commitments, so you work only on the few things that you can manage without being overwhelmed.
To get started, it helps to extract a small (10-20min) specific starting task from a big vague task. Just don’t split the whole project into too many pieces at once, because that may start looking like too much.
And medication. Lots of people report that it really helps.
My ADHD is severe enough that medication is more or less necessary to function.
Besides that, I've not had much luck being able to channel the focus medications bring, except one key thing. Take your medication after you get started on whatever you want to accomplish. Once the meds kick in, your attention will often grab onto whatever you happen to be doing, and stay there.
Another huge help is the OHIO principle: Only Handle It Once. Try to catch yourself whenever you think "I'll do it later", and do it right away instead. Maybe give yourself a reward whenever you manage to do this, for some self-conditioning.
As for the situation you mention, there is no shame in asking friends or family for help(to do some of the chores, help you get started). Especially if you ask someone who also has ADHD, they will understand your pain and want to help. Often getting that reset back to normal is the best way to get into better habits.
I find it's much harder to establish better habits when I have a gigantic list of unfinished chores to do.
>Many developers with ADHD feel their job is a perfect fit for how they think and approach problems. “Coding can give ADHD brains exactly the kind of stimulation they crave,” explains full-stack developer Abbey Perini. “Not only is coding a creative endeavor that involves constantly learning new things, but also once one problem is solved, there’s always a brand new one to try.”
>In addition to a revolving door of fresh challenges that can keep people with ADHD engaged, coding can reward and encourage a state of hyperfocus: a frequently cited symptom of ADHD that developer Neil Peterson calls “a state of laser-like concentration in which distractions and even a sense of passing time seem to fade away.” It’s easy to draw parallels between hyperfocus and the flow state, a distraction-free groove in which programmers, writers, musicians, artists, and other creators produce their best work (occasionally while forgetting to eat). Our paid platform, Stack Overflow for Teams, is popular with developers in large part because it helps them avoid distraction and protect the productive sanctity of their flow state.
How much of the "hyperfocus" is just from all of the Adderall these people are popping--both those with actual ADHD, and those just feigning it to get pills from their Dr to boost their productivity?
If anything, it would seem like people with autism spectrum disorder, who can hyperfocus without popping pills, would be the perfect fit (and were seen as such 10-20 years ago). I actually wonder what % of SV SWEs (especially at FAANG) would lose their jobs, or wouldn't have gotten them to begin with, if Adderall didn't exist.
Although presently there is a strong institutional drive to disconnect nearly everything from IQ, the traditional medical dogma is that median IQ for ADHD individuals is lower than average. That's not to say that there aren't higher IQ individuals with ADHD.
But if IQ skews lower, what explains the paradox between this traditional view and supposed ADHD concentration in STEM?
My working theory is that ADHD-PI is actually an autism spectrum symptom and skews higher IQ.
ADHD hyperactive is probably still clinically related to ADHD-PI, but I'd guess that the hyperactive expression is just enough outside of the spectrum to disconnect it from AS. And that the higher IQ related "symptom" is less likely to be present as well.
Possibly due to a less overactive visual cortex: the increased visual processing theoretically being related to the daydreaming symptom of PI. And the attentional fatigue that triggers the daydreaming being related to ADHD-PI as well, in addition to the possibility of it being related to AS.
Although I don't work in IT, I suspect that the presence of ADHD-PI skews higher than expected in comparison with the hyperactive expression.
Be thankful you don't have issues with intention and intrinsic motivation. ADHD is not a focus problem it's a motivation problem for the people it severely dysfunctions. It's a inability to hold your tongue when you really really really really want to mouth off at someone. Focus is and should be the last thing down on the list if people want to even consider that they have ADHD. Executive dysfunction is a real problem and just be thankful you don't have it.
Not only that, but it seems like any time I mention struggling to focus on some task, I instantly get told, no, I do have ADHD and need to get tested for it. Like, no, I just don't want to sit here and correct these math equations my code couldn't copy right.
I was astounded by the popularity of the term ADHD on HN. There are 48,000 posts and over a million comments. If you want to verify this, use ADHD not adhd in your search.
As someone with ADHD, sysadmin work is the most pleasant. I actually dislike programming most of the time. So many things I have to keep track of, and programming languages only get more and more abstract.
Everyone on here says they have ADHD so they can get access to Adderall which is sort of a cheat code for programming. Some people do this genuinely believing they’re suffering from some disorder, others do it knowing they would be fine without it but better with it.
That would be far superior to the current option in many places where one has to to pay the shrink every month to renew, on top of paying for the prescription to be filled lol.
I’m so tired of people dismissing ADHD as something other than ADHD.
My diet has evolved throughout my lifetime, but you know what hasn’t? My ADHD experience. I’ve always struggled to stay focused, get started, finish tasks, manage time and set priorities since I was a young child.
Claiming it’s a food allergy — with no evidence! — just reinforces the idea that ADHD is a moral failing rather than a developmental disorder that renders many of us miserable and, sometimes, nearly powerless.
Do you have a source for this? From everything I've researched, it's actually a chemical imbalance that affects the management of dopamine in the brain, making it hard to focus.
Sometimes I get worried about oversimplification on Hacker News. As a bacteria researcher, I know how complex health research can be. Unfortunately, some smart people oversimplify things they don't understand, especially in biomedical research.
I agree certain foods can attenuate symptoms (I’ve gone on a year plus long elimination diet eating only a handful of foods, which helped symptoms), there’s certainly a “lower level” component to it as well.
After the diet I don’t magically become more skilled at visual reasoning (think that’s what it’s called), or able to recite a story from start to finish without jumping everywhere.
I agree though that the worst of the symptoms can probably be mitigated at the least.
People react very strongly to this view. I have a theory on why that is, but won't rile you up even further by posting it.
I'm not trying to be controversial, but American pharmaceutical companies have started lobbying European countries governments to get kids diagnosed early with ADHD (as it is in America), and it's terrifying. Teachers are just letting it happen, because; surprise! little Timmy is so much better behaved now that he's on pills, and dealing with 30 kids is hard.
What the article says is that he thinks it is overdiagnosed, not that it is a scam. This may or may not be true, it's hard to tell. With ADHD, as with autism, there is likely a spectrum. And given that stimulant drugs show some benefits to almost everybody, where do you draw the line between "needs them to function normally" and "needs them to function optimally"?
[+] [-] dijit|3 years ago|reply
You have endless areas to noodle on solutions to avoid issues; you work hard to avoid working hard (strong ADHD trait) and interruptions are either fine and they fuel you completely: or you cannot work with interruptions at all.
Anecdotally: I was a sysadmin (that coded) and I got pretty close to an ADHD diagnosis but was warned off of it by the Swedish health authority (I've talked about it before on HN; basically that my insurances would increase and it could affect mortgages, cannot hold certain vehicle licenses etc;).
[+] [-] ryukoposting|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spacephysics|3 years ago|reply
I’ve made many stupid small mistakes where someone checks my code in review and finds a small error, or I forget to run the unit test suite (we don’t currently have an auto-testing pipeline) where it’s led me to question my career.
On the other hand, what you describe fits very well with my experiences, endless tasks to do (especially in a “many hats” role), and working hard to avoid work.
Side note: For how well the Swedish system works, I’m surprised that they can do that based on such diagnosis. Affect, mortgages? That’s insane. +1 to the states on that one.
[+] [-] bogantech|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] itsmemattchung|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] daniel-cussen|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] annie_muss|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] AnEro|3 years ago|reply
It's like everyone is climbing a mountain, and they are wearing snow shoes, but I'm stuck with normal boots or worse. However, when I start having fun climbing I plucked off the ground by a ski lift that takes me to a random place up the mountain. If I'm travelling in groups or trying to reach a certain place, to not get lost I have to jump off the lift. Then I'm back to walking on foot, hurt but in an ache but not an actual damage and I have to try to keep up with the snow shoe folk again.
[+] [-] falcolas|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Muromec|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] b7r6|3 years ago|reply
But I sort of philosophically struggle with the "disorder" bit of it. I live in a box with a glass wall facing other boxes with glass walls and type into a computer screen any time that I'm not actively going to the gym or doing something outdoors becuase the default thing I do is try to create enough material prosperity to exist.
This seems like something that would have a caveman climbing the walls, which is roughly how I feel about the glass box / computer screen routine when I'm not on ADHD medication.
Is is "neurotypical" to be perfectly at ease spending hours hunched in front of a screen under artifical light in order to eat, or is it "neurotypical" to be fantasizing that the pool cue next to my monitor would fly pretty straight if a lion walked through the door?
[+] [-] falcolas|3 years ago|reply
- Stepping on a branch while hunting because of a fractal pattern in the nearby tree.
- Get drop-kicked by a puma because they spent too much time looking at the ground while trying not to break a branch while hunting.
- Getting distracted and missing their ability to ambush prey.
- Their spear breaking because of a lack of maintenance.
- Spending weeks trying to improve their spear and forgetting to eat/sleep/drink regularly.
- Poisoning themselves/another because they started glossing over the details while picking mushrooms.
Control over concentration has never been solely a modern day requirement.
[+] [-] kayodelycaon|3 years ago|reply
Someone with ADHD has trouble controlling attention. To be a disorder, this needs to be severe enough to limit you.
There is a significant overlap in behavior with neurotypical and neurodivergent people. What separates them is what is driving that behavior.
[+] [-] jnovek|3 years ago|reply
That said, as we’ve injected more and more process into software development over the last decade or so I’ve found it harder and harder to engage. I respect its necessity but JIRA is nearly the opposite of the exploratory experience of programming.
[+] [-] lampshades|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 1letterunixname|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] itsmemattchung|3 years ago|reply
Side note: I'm 34 years old and just 3 days ago, was evaluated by a psychiatrist and was diagnosed with adult ADHD.
[+] [-] iLoveOncall|3 years ago|reply
How would you know?
This number is totally unrealistic when the prevalence in the adult population is 2-4%.
Unless you work with 3 people, one of which has ADHD.
[+] [-] bayesian_horse|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ilovecaching|3 years ago|reply
I really struggle with yak shaving and perfection being the enemy of good as well, my ADHD often devolves into OCD like behaviors.
[+] [-] mklepaczewski|3 years ago|reply
I don't know if I have ADHD, but I'm definitely a chronic, severe procrastinator. I've been looking for a method to overcome it for 20 years. Finally, I tried body doubling, and it was like magic: suddenly, I became productive. I immediately made a drastic decision to hire someone to sit with me every day. I was a software developer, so going from 2-3h billable hours to 6-7h/day was well worth the expense. I hired a stay-at-home dad, and we connected every morning to work together (well, I was working, he played games and watched Netflix ;-)
Now, disclosure and shameless plug. Body doubling was such a life changer for me that I co-founded https://workmode.net/ - basically body doubling as a service for chronic procrastinators. It's tailored to people who need it for work (basically full-time body doubling). If you want to give it a try - we have 1-click demo session.
For acute (non-chronic), mild procrastinators, Focusmate might be a good choice too.
For other methods, I recommend reading https://solvingprocrastination.com/
[+] [-] pornel|3 years ago|reply
With too many things to juggle, you have to face the reality and drop some commitments, so you work only on the few things that you can manage without being overwhelmed.
To get started, it helps to extract a small (10-20min) specific starting task from a big vague task. Just don’t split the whole project into too many pieces at once, because that may start looking like too much.
And medication. Lots of people report that it really helps.
[+] [-] annie_muss|3 years ago|reply
Describe the desired completed task to an imaginary third person. Poorly defined tasks can often make starting more difficult.
[+] [-] mtlmtlmtlmtl|3 years ago|reply
Besides that, I've not had much luck being able to channel the focus medications bring, except one key thing. Take your medication after you get started on whatever you want to accomplish. Once the meds kick in, your attention will often grab onto whatever you happen to be doing, and stay there.
Another huge help is the OHIO principle: Only Handle It Once. Try to catch yourself whenever you think "I'll do it later", and do it right away instead. Maybe give yourself a reward whenever you manage to do this, for some self-conditioning.
As for the situation you mention, there is no shame in asking friends or family for help(to do some of the chores, help you get started). Especially if you ask someone who also has ADHD, they will understand your pain and want to help. Often getting that reset back to normal is the best way to get into better habits.
I find it's much harder to establish better habits when I have a gigantic list of unfinished chores to do.
[+] [-] itsmemattchung|3 years ago|reply
Filled with tons of practical tips on managing your ADHD
[+] [-] greengoo|3 years ago|reply
>Many developers with ADHD feel their job is a perfect fit for how they think and approach problems. “Coding can give ADHD brains exactly the kind of stimulation they crave,” explains full-stack developer Abbey Perini. “Not only is coding a creative endeavor that involves constantly learning new things, but also once one problem is solved, there’s always a brand new one to try.”
>In addition to a revolving door of fresh challenges that can keep people with ADHD engaged, coding can reward and encourage a state of hyperfocus: a frequently cited symptom of ADHD that developer Neil Peterson calls “a state of laser-like concentration in which distractions and even a sense of passing time seem to fade away.” It’s easy to draw parallels between hyperfocus and the flow state, a distraction-free groove in which programmers, writers, musicians, artists, and other creators produce their best work (occasionally while forgetting to eat). Our paid platform, Stack Overflow for Teams, is popular with developers in large part because it helps them avoid distraction and protect the productive sanctity of their flow state.
How much of the "hyperfocus" is just from all of the Adderall these people are popping--both those with actual ADHD, and those just feigning it to get pills from their Dr to boost their productivity?
If anything, it would seem like people with autism spectrum disorder, who can hyperfocus without popping pills, would be the perfect fit (and were seen as such 10-20 years ago). I actually wonder what % of SV SWEs (especially at FAANG) would lose their jobs, or wouldn't have gotten them to begin with, if Adderall didn't exist.
[+] [-] mrangle|3 years ago|reply
But if IQ skews lower, what explains the paradox between this traditional view and supposed ADHD concentration in STEM?
My working theory is that ADHD-PI is actually an autism spectrum symptom and skews higher IQ.
ADHD hyperactive is probably still clinically related to ADHD-PI, but I'd guess that the hyperactive expression is just enough outside of the spectrum to disconnect it from AS. And that the higher IQ related "symptom" is less likely to be present as well.
Possibly due to a less overactive visual cortex: the increased visual processing theoretically being related to the daydreaming symptom of PI. And the attentional fatigue that triggers the daydreaming being related to ADHD-PI as well, in addition to the possibility of it being related to AS.
Although I don't work in IT, I suspect that the presence of ADHD-PI skews higher than expected in comparison with the hyperactive expression.
[+] [-] owlninja|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] navjack27|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dorchadas|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kayodelycaon|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cc101|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pcthrowaway|3 years ago|reply
It's like that post on blog options, and how a disproportionate number of blog posts are about setting up a blog.
[+] [-] coldblues|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] symlinkk|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Eumenes|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nibbleshifter|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] japanman425|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] japanman425|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] m3sh|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] jnovek|3 years ago|reply
My diet has evolved throughout my lifetime, but you know what hasn’t? My ADHD experience. I’ve always struggled to stay focused, get started, finish tasks, manage time and set priorities since I was a young child.
Claiming it’s a food allergy — with no evidence! — just reinforces the idea that ADHD is a moral failing rather than a developmental disorder that renders many of us miserable and, sometimes, nearly powerless.
[+] [-] oo0shiny|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] VeninVidiaVicii|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spacephysics|3 years ago|reply
After the diet I don’t magically become more skilled at visual reasoning (think that’s what it’s called), or able to recite a story from start to finish without jumping everywhere.
I agree though that the worst of the symptoms can probably be mitigated at the least.
[+] [-] k__|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brianfryer|3 years ago|reply
What might be some common foods that would cause this?
[+] [-] bayesian_horse|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ghusto|3 years ago|reply
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/big-pharma-s-manu...
People react very strongly to this view. I have a theory on why that is, but won't rile you up even further by posting it.
I'm not trying to be controversial, but American pharmaceutical companies have started lobbying European countries governments to get kids diagnosed early with ADHD (as it is in America), and it's terrifying. Teachers are just letting it happen, because; surprise! little Timmy is so much better behaved now that he's on pills, and dealing with 30 kids is hard.
[+] [-] amanaplanacanal|3 years ago|reply