One tip I have for dishwashers: use the soap dispenser as your dirty/clean indicator.
When you empty the clean dishwasher, immediately fill and close the soap dispenser. As long as you do that, you now have a reliable indicator for everyone of clean (open) or dirty (closed).
Yes! A magnet is an extra step, off the critical path. One needs to add soap eventually; why not use it as signal? This is the same principle I keep trying to explain to my college: Data should be entered ONCE then sourced everywhere needed.
This is my system for my work apartment. My wife rejects it at home, for reasons I don't understand well enough to relay. I go along, I want to stay married.
On that theme, why is this post about emptying a dishwasher? The crucial issue in most good marriages is how to load the dishwasher. Emptying is pretty obvious.
I have a magnet that says "Clean" facing up, and "Dirty" upside down that I bought for $1 in 1998. When the dishes are emptied, or when someone starts the dishwasher, we spin the magnet so that the appropriate side is readable.
In hindsight, it is probably the most productive single dollar I've ever spent.
I had a dishwasher at my last place, landlord special and everything. But it was smart, if you did a load of dishes, a little led would turn on saying it's done. The led wouldn't turn back off until the dishwasher was fully closed. So you could open it, be lazy and take a clean fork out, and then close it most of the way, and the clean light would stay on.
Our system is: an open dishwasher can accept new dirty dishes.
So if the dishwasher is closed, it's either cleaning (put dirty dishes on the counter) or it's done cleaning. And when you open the closed dishwasher you immediately must transfer all clean dishes to the cabinets. And then it's able to accept new dirty dishes.
Great idea for 95% of people, but just a reminder if you’re reading this and have a toddler: they are obsessed with dishwashers and will find a way to try and eat that soap.
Or maybe it’s just mine. Our dishwasher is shut and turned off at all times, I’m dreading the day our toddler has the finger strength to push the power button on.
Close-yes, Fill-maybe not. Use the dispenser as a marker is a good idea, but it is almost always dump and will ruin you soap. I use tablets which are even more sensitive to moisture, and are expected to stay dry and slowly dissolve in hot water.
I have to say I never had the problem everyone here seems to have.
Starting the dishwasher is a decision we generally take together (and if unilaterally decided, we do tell the others that we programmed it for the night) and in the morning we all know the dishes are clean, and we empty the dishwasher (or hear it being emptied).
But more importantly, if the dishwasher is closed, full and not on (or blinking to indicate programmed for the night) then it has to be clean. If it's partially full then it has to be dirty? unless someone is emptying it right now which you would certainly notice.
One thing that you can do that will greatly simplify dishwasher management, is to have two dishwashers.
There is one clean dishwasher and one dirty dishwasher. You take plates from the clean dishwasher, use them, and put them in the dirty dishwasher. Once the clean dishwasher is empty, the dirty dishwasher is run, and then becomes the clean dishwasher, and the empty one now becomes the dirty dishwasher.
There are analogous situations in system design as well.
I did this for a while. It doesn't work as well as you imagine.
There will always be some items that are left in the 'clean' dishwasher - eg. that lemon squeezer you only use once a month.
Also, with two dishwashers, thats a lot of cutlery/crockery in one or other dishwasher. Sometimes the cupboard is empty. Now every time you want an item, you need to check the cupboard and the dishwasher.
You might say, why have a cupboard, simply only store your plates in the dishwasher. But sometimes I have stuff that needs washing but I haven't yet used up all the clean plates... So I need somewhere to empty them out to.
Surely that's far less efficient than just having removable trays / draws / shelves that you swap between a cupboard and a dishwasher. In the past I envisioned this as being a rack on wheels that rolls into the door but continues on an opposing cupboard door (like a dummy dishwasher, with no internal parts). At which point you put a fresh rack in the dishwasher proper.
Having a front/back buffer design is interesting to me. I say that as someone that does like the idea of having multiple dishwashers. I don't see myself doing that sort of treatment, though.
Building on how I think I'd treat them is closer to a ringbuffer of workers. Would look a lot like the front/back idea in slow use, but I could easily see bursting through to where I have both running at once. And the destination of dishes out is still to the cabinets, for many other reasons.
There are a number of designs that have to half-height dishwasher stacked atop each other, so only takes the space of a normal dishwasher, that accomplish exactly this. The only problem is they tend not be as good quality as conventional dishwashers, and you only have half of the usual capacity (which can be worked around in many cases when necessary)
Maybe it’s a function of dishes per day, but two makes sense from having lots of dishes in a single day, or one for large pots and pans should that be ok in your world.
100%. Entry level Bosch with timer here; I take care to load it efficiently, ensuring rotors are never blocked. I always use the highest temperature setting (70c -
I most often run it during the day when powered by PV) along with rinse aid, the good Finish Powerball Ultimate tablets.
There's zero mistaking clean from dirty.
(I'll also run a special machine cleaner every few months; empty machine with a special detergent. Machine is great when run like this.)
I've been wondering why dishwasher makers don't include a "clean indicator" with a reset button. Automatically set the "green LED means clean" light when a wash cycle completes, pushing the light turns it off, make it obvious enough and you'll likely get 99% compliance.
Once we’ve transitioned into the filling state, we can work as slowly as we want on moving dishes from the counter to the dishwasher, assured in the knowledge that the counter mountain is no longer growing, meaning it will eventually disappear with even the smallest amount of ongoing work.
Wouldn’t that depend on the difference between arrival rate and fill rate?
According to the diagrams, the author lives in a well trained household where dirty dishes created by others are placed directly into the dishwasher, if the dishwasher contains dirty dishes.
This reminds me of another similar system in which a single action means little, but once a condition is met things change: school.
I’ve specifically wondered about how sunk cost fallacy plays into these systems.
Say you believe that the value of college is only realized once you have a degree. (Oversimplified of course, on purpose.)
Purists of rationality might say that it is sunk cost fallacy to believe that you should finish the last class, since you’ve come this far (the sunk cost part).
But as this article states, the condition change is the meaningful bit; at what granularity should we measure something like sunk cost?
In other words, it’s not irrational to take a final course just to get the credit and finish the degree, even if the course seems useless, because it is a necessary step for the higher level condition change.
Only vaguely related, but when you fill your dishwasher, put the cutlery sorted into the basket. Thus it's just one grab for the forks, spoons and knives each to take them from the machine into their compartment in the cutlery drawer, no more sorting required.
Totally. The other part about it is, with my lifestyle, I fill the dishwasher throughout the day as I go, so when loading, it's barely more effort to put in into the right basket. Whereas sorting it at the unloading end, you've got to do the sorting all at once.
I prefer a dishwasher with a shallow cutlery drawer at the top, rather than a basket. It's trivial to slot the cutlery into the tray in groups, where it washes perfectly and comes out tidy.
This is off topic, but I noticed most of the other comments here seem to be about managing dishwashers, so what the hell...
I always thought it would be cool to have a dishwasher that doubled as cabinets.* It could have a slot for dirty dishes and clean dishes could be summoned at any time using a touchscreen. The machine would clean the dishes when necessary and without requiring further intervention (beyond keeping the soap hopper full).
If you want to steal this idea for your startup be my guest. You can even sell subscriptions to seasonally-appropriate compatible dishware.
* Edit: I see this exact idea is already posted as a comment downthread, so apologies for retreading.
Your spouse asked you to empty the dishwasher/clean the kitchen for the n-th time and so as a procrastination/excuse you started bikeshedding strategies.
Having 4 kids ages 5 and under, while also running a startup, I can confidently tell you that disposable dishes are the true answer to efficient dishwasher management.
Great article. Using household examples to explain theory is very powerful.
Along those lines the most recent Goldratt / Theory of Constraints book “Rules of Flow” has a chapter on Thanksgiving dinner preparation, similar to the original ‘Herbie’s Scout Hike’ that is pretty good.
The article assumes that the dishwasher needs to be emptied of clean dishes before dirty ones can be put in. This is not the case. The clean dishes will take on the dirty state as soon as dirty dishes are inserted into a machine with clean dishes.
[+] [-] sokoloff|3 years ago|reply
When you empty the clean dishwasher, immediately fill and close the soap dispenser. As long as you do that, you now have a reliable indicator for everyone of clean (open) or dirty (closed).
[+] [-] Syzygies|3 years ago|reply
This is my system for my work apartment. My wife rejects it at home, for reasons I don't understand well enough to relay. I go along, I want to stay married.
On that theme, why is this post about emptying a dishwasher? The crucial issue in most good marriages is how to load the dishwasher. Emptying is pretty obvious.
[+] [-] bmelton|3 years ago|reply
In hindsight, it is probably the most productive single dollar I've ever spent.
[+] [-] bobbean|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] leokennis|3 years ago|reply
Our system is: an open dishwasher can accept new dirty dishes.
So if the dishwasher is closed, it's either cleaning (put dirty dishes on the counter) or it's done cleaning. And when you open the closed dishwasher you immediately must transfer all clean dishes to the cabinets. And then it's able to accept new dirty dishes.
[+] [-] mrmincent|3 years ago|reply
Or maybe it’s just mine. Our dishwasher is shut and turned off at all times, I’m dreading the day our toddler has the finger strength to push the power button on.
[+] [-] IanCal|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thedougd|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 2rsf|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kkylin|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bombolo|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] selcuka|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sneak|3 years ago|reply
The dishes found in the dishwasher will always be clean.
Dish soap and cycles are cheap. Storing dirty dishes in the dishwasher is madness. It's literally a machine with a button that makes them clean.
[+] [-] seszett|3 years ago|reply
Starting the dishwasher is a decision we generally take together (and if unilaterally decided, we do tell the others that we programmed it for the night) and in the morning we all know the dishes are clean, and we empty the dishwasher (or hear it being emptied).
But more importantly, if the dishwasher is closed, full and not on (or blinking to indicate programmed for the night) then it has to be clean. If it's partially full then it has to be dirty? unless someone is emptying it right now which you would certainly notice.
[+] [-] Jaxan|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] YokoZar|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jbandela1|3 years ago|reply
There is one clean dishwasher and one dirty dishwasher. You take plates from the clean dishwasher, use them, and put them in the dirty dishwasher. Once the clean dishwasher is empty, the dirty dishwasher is run, and then becomes the clean dishwasher, and the empty one now becomes the dirty dishwasher.
There are analogous situations in system design as well.
[+] [-] londons_explore|3 years ago|reply
There will always be some items that are left in the 'clean' dishwasher - eg. that lemon squeezer you only use once a month.
Also, with two dishwashers, thats a lot of cutlery/crockery in one or other dishwasher. Sometimes the cupboard is empty. Now every time you want an item, you need to check the cupboard and the dishwasher.
You might say, why have a cupboard, simply only store your plates in the dishwasher. But sometimes I have stuff that needs washing but I haven't yet used up all the clean plates... So I need somewhere to empty them out to.
[+] [-] pbhjpbhj|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] taeric|3 years ago|reply
Building on how I think I'd treat them is closer to a ringbuffer of workers. Would look a lot like the front/back idea in slow use, but I could easily see bursting through to where I have both running at once. And the destination of dishes out is still to the cabinets, for many other reasons.
[+] [-] c22|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] askvictor|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] j45|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] count|3 years ago|reply
Not that I'd ever do something like that.
[+] [-] epanchin|3 years ago|reply
How are people incapable of identifying a finished cycle?
Why would dishes pile up on top unless the dishwasher is actually running?
[+] [-] cja|3 years ago|reply
- always have sufficient time and motivation to empty it immediately when you see that the programme has finished, and
- always have sufficient time and motivation to put dirty things in it as soon as you have used them.
I'm jealous.
Also: https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2022-08-17/ryan-giggs-calle...
[+] [-] sundvor|3 years ago|reply
There's zero mistaking clean from dirty.
(I'll also run a special machine cleaner every few months; empty machine with a special detergent. Machine is great when run like this.)
[+] [-] javier_e06|3 years ago|reply
Pop-quiz hot-shot. Are the dishes clean or dirty?
You pick the first glass. Looks clean. You pick a bowl for you cereal an spot some grime at the bottom. The spoon is questionable..water spots?
Answer: Rewash your glass, spoon and bowl and let somebody else handle this.
[+] [-] yencabulator|3 years ago|reply
I've been wondering why dishwasher makers don't include a "clean indicator" with a reset button. Automatically set the "green LED means clean" light when a wash cycle completes, pushing the light turns it off, make it obvious enough and you'll likely get 99% compliance.
[+] [-] mwcremer|3 years ago|reply
Wouldn’t that depend on the difference between arrival rate and fill rate?
[+] [-] dwattttt|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jcutrell|3 years ago|reply
I’ve specifically wondered about how sunk cost fallacy plays into these systems.
Say you believe that the value of college is only realized once you have a degree. (Oversimplified of course, on purpose.)
Purists of rationality might say that it is sunk cost fallacy to believe that you should finish the last class, since you’ve come this far (the sunk cost part).
But as this article states, the condition change is the meaningful bit; at what granularity should we measure something like sunk cost?
In other words, it’s not irrational to take a final course just to get the credit and finish the degree, even if the course seems useless, because it is a necessary step for the higher level condition change.
[+] [-] TomK32|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] johndough|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zamnos|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jfk13|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mzs|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] c22|3 years ago|reply
I always thought it would be cool to have a dishwasher that doubled as cabinets.* It could have a slot for dirty dishes and clean dishes could be summoned at any time using a touchscreen. The machine would clean the dishes when necessary and without requiring further intervention (beyond keeping the soap hopper full).
If you want to steal this idea for your startup be my guest. You can even sell subscriptions to seasonally-appropriate compatible dishware.
* Edit: I see this exact idea is already posted as a comment downthread, so apologies for retreading.
[+] [-] jnsaff2|3 years ago|reply
Your spouse asked you to empty the dishwasher/clean the kitchen for the n-th time and so as a procrastination/excuse you started bikeshedding strategies.
[+] [-] konne88|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] flybrand|3 years ago|reply
Along those lines the most recent Goldratt / Theory of Constraints book “Rules of Flow” has a chapter on Thanksgiving dinner preparation, similar to the original ‘Herbie’s Scout Hike’ that is pretty good.
https://fredlybrand.com/2023/03/06/goldratts-rules-of-flow-c...
[+] [-] j45|3 years ago|reply
It either shows who thinks about or prefers to do the work up front in loading the dishwasher well to be be able to unload it the quickest.
Also helps folks identify if they hate loading or unloading a dishwasher more.
Imagining the parallels to tech roles is left here open for your comments.
[+] [-] entrep|3 years ago|reply