I’m still patiently awaiting the day we hold those accountable for the unilaterally aggressive war that led to the unnecessary death of over 1 million Iraqis and countless Americans.
Well, the ICC has just -rightly IMO - put out a warrant for the arrest of Vladimir Putin. I’m sure the warrant for Bush Jr. is next.
Oh wait, they didn’t issue the warrant because of aggressive war, it’s due to forced deportations of children, something that AFAIK didn’t really happen in Iraq. That’s convenient.
One of Bin Laden's goals was to exact a huge financial cost, and he largely succeeded.
One of Bin Laden's goals was to foment distrust of America around the world. He succeeded.
The undermining of core liberties, the sullying of legal foundations to support the "war on terror", the vast increase in monitoring and other totalitarian state system, further radicalization of the right wing and division in the US, that was alllll gravy.
The problem was that no country dared to stand up to America just like they would with Russia right now. (IMO, Russia was rightfully sanctioned for the invasion of Ukraine.) But when America invaded Iraq, who dared to sanction America? No one. And in the future, should America do it once more, the same thing would happen again.
Uh? The French literally convinced most of the UN members (except the United Kingdom) to NOT support the USA in invading Iraq. The French representative at the time directly confronted Colin Powell about the supposed "proofs" on WoMDs. They also predicted exactly what is happening today: increased terrorist risk, geopolitical instability, economic fallout etc. You can see the famous speech of Villepin at the UN on YouTube. This how the war on Iraq was deemed as illegal by the United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan at the time.
Fun-fact this is also when French bashing started to rise in the US, coming from politicians but also throughout pop-culture.
It had little to do with fear, look to the makeup of the coalition of the not exactly willing.
Australia had the sycophantic Howard Government at the time, declassified documents [0] reveal the decision to go to war was taken primarily with a view to enhancing its alliance with the United States.
Other Australian Governments (eg: Keating or Whitlam, etc.) would, I hope, have told the US to bugger the hell right off .. or they would have grudgingly gone along on the basis of having mutual treaties (that didn't strictly apply to Rambo Missions).
The UK had Blair who apparently really really believed that the UK's "special relationship" with the US could temper their excesses in a rash post 9/11 PTSD induced revenge mission [1].
The handfull of lessor players were in it for the promised carrots (with a few having a minor twist of fear of the alternatives should they not go along - but the US at the time was over promising to gain paid allies).
more like: perpetual war for perpetual profits of the military-industrial complex.
Eisenhower (who had been a five-star general before becoming president) warned about it in 1961… he saw it coming, but people didn't listen or didn't care:
> we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military–industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together
- WMDs...were a lie. An obvious and intentional lie. A lie that no one seems to remember. Maybe our collective consciousness is too embarrassed?
-Aside from the shock & awe phase, there was little media coverage. Contrast that with Russia and Ukraine. Yet another subtle example of how The Media (at least in the USA) has lost its journalistic integrity.
- Opportunity cost. Combine Iraq with Afghanistan and that's a lot of lives, time and resources gone. Forever. Imagine even half of that used to move the needle in a positive direction.
- The Military Industrial Complex - It's not a conspiracy theory. It is real. The Biden Administration has push the DOD budget over $800 BILLION and was effectively met with crickets. Money we don't have to over-spend on things that we don't need.
> There is certainly a lot to criticize about this particular boondoggle
The Iraq War was not a boondoggle. Or, rather, it was a boondoggle, but that’s not the main problem with it. The main problem with it was it was a blatantly unprovoked war of aggression, covered with what were often utterly transparently, immediately not only debunked but with receipts to show that it was impossible for the people telling them to have believed them, lies.
(The secondary problem with it is also not that it was a massive boondoggle, but rather than this completely unnecessary unprovoked war of aggression – a crime, I might note, that we hung people for at Nuremberg – was also that it was launched in the middle of and taking focus from another war, which whatever other faults it might have had, was at least reasonably arguably a defensive war targeting a force that had launched attacks on the US and those actively protecting them – by pushing that war into a holding pattern it intensified and extended chaos and suffering which could have been much shortened, and guaranteed that, if any decent end to the other war had otherwise been possible, that opportunity was pissed away.)
Sure, the best way to counter these Sino/Russo efforts is by censoring information that is actually true. That must add confidence and trust to the system right?
I think it's really demoralizing to people who cherish free speech and the sharing of knowledge to see these inflammatory insinuations. Suggesting a moderator act to censor discussion in an attempt to limit the spread of the work of Iraqi scholars at rigorous and highly respected universities who are both in their area of expertise and speaking about their homeland does not have a charitable interpretation that I could find.
Given that you've been posting here for a decade and know or should know all the guidelines your comment is violating, I think there's a good case to be made that the community would benefit from an enforced break from your posting so that you can reflect on them.
Per the guidelines:
>Please don't complain that a submission is inappropriate.
>Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. That tramples curiosity
>Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken.
>Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents.
>Please don't post shallow dismissals
I would have simply flagged your comment if I had sufficient karma to do so.
Americans looted Iraq oil, so that war wasnt that costly. They tried to do the same with Afghanistan lithium mines, but in 20 years Americans never ever able to control the land greater than 50%. So the majority of Bush war cost wjich amounts to 10-20T weigh down by Afghan humiliating defeat.
[+] [-] lowkey|3 years ago|reply
Should be any day now, right? Right?
[+] [-] rebuilder|3 years ago|reply
Oh wait, they didn’t issue the warrant because of aggressive war, it’s due to forced deportations of children, something that AFAIK didn’t really happen in Iraq. That’s convenient.
[+] [-] recuter|3 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein
Life is complicated.
P.S. - I did not support the Iraq war in 2003 or now. Just cognizant of how such things unfurl beyond the trendy self-flagellation.
[+] [-] geenew|3 years ago|reply
https://www.reuters.com/news/picture/iconic-images-from-the-...
[+] [-] runnerup|3 years ago|reply
This has a “live counter” constantly incrementing which shows the total cost of the “global war on terror”.
[+] [-] AtlasBarfed|3 years ago|reply
One of Bin Laden's goals was to foment distrust of America around the world. He succeeded.
The undermining of core liberties, the sullying of legal foundations to support the "war on terror", the vast increase in monitoring and other totalitarian state system, further radicalization of the right wing and division in the US, that was alllll gravy.
[+] [-] clouddrover|3 years ago|reply
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/06/us-police-ki...
In the last 25 years American police have killed more Americans than terrorists have.
More American lives would be saved by putting resources towards getting the police under control than by more spending on the nebulous war on terror.
[+] [-] esturk|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] IlikeMadison|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] defrost|3 years ago|reply
Australia had the sycophantic Howard Government at the time, declassified documents [0] reveal the decision to go to war was taken primarily with a view to enhancing its alliance with the United States.
Other Australian Governments (eg: Keating or Whitlam, etc.) would, I hope, have told the US to bugger the hell right off .. or they would have grudgingly gone along on the basis of having mutual treaties (that didn't strictly apply to Rambo Missions).
The UK had Blair who apparently really really believed that the UK's "special relationship" with the US could temper their excesses in a rash post 9/11 PTSD induced revenge mission [1].
The handfull of lessor players were in it for the promised carrots (with a few having a minor twist of fear of the alternatives should they not go along - but the US at the time was over promising to gain paid allies).
[0] https://www.smh.com.au/interactive/2017/iraq-dossier/
[1] https://mwi.usma.edu/britains-blunder-united-kingdom-marched...
[+] [-] keithalewis|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] EntrePrescott|3 years ago|reply
> we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military–industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together
Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military%E2%80%93industrial_co...
[+] [-] chitowneats|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] miguelazo|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mardifoufs|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nielsbot|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] disillusioned|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] chiefalchemist|3 years ago|reply
- WMDs...were a lie. An obvious and intentional lie. A lie that no one seems to remember. Maybe our collective consciousness is too embarrassed?
-Aside from the shock & awe phase, there was little media coverage. Contrast that with Russia and Ukraine. Yet another subtle example of how The Media (at least in the USA) has lost its journalistic integrity.
- Opportunity cost. Combine Iraq with Afghanistan and that's a lot of lives, time and resources gone. Forever. Imagine even half of that used to move the needle in a positive direction.
- The Military Industrial Complex - It's not a conspiracy theory. It is real. The Biden Administration has push the DOD budget over $800 BILLION and was effectively met with crickets. Money we don't have to over-spend on things that we don't need.
[+] [-] recuter|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pokepim|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] recuter|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] dragonwriter|3 years ago|reply
The Iraq War was not a boondoggle. Or, rather, it was a boondoggle, but that’s not the main problem with it. The main problem with it was it was a blatantly unprovoked war of aggression, covered with what were often utterly transparently, immediately not only debunked but with receipts to show that it was impossible for the people telling them to have believed them, lies.
(The secondary problem with it is also not that it was a massive boondoggle, but rather than this completely unnecessary unprovoked war of aggression – a crime, I might note, that we hung people for at Nuremberg – was also that it was launched in the middle of and taking focus from another war, which whatever other faults it might have had, was at least reasonably arguably a defensive war targeting a force that had launched attacks on the US and those actively protecting them – by pushing that war into a holding pattern it intensified and extended chaos and suffering which could have been much shortened, and guaranteed that, if any decent end to the other war had otherwise been possible, that opportunity was pissed away.)
[+] [-] csomar|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nurgasemetey|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] racketcon2089|3 years ago|reply
Given that you've been posting here for a decade and know or should know all the guidelines your comment is violating, I think there's a good case to be made that the community would benefit from an enforced break from your posting so that you can reflect on them.
Per the guidelines:
>Please don't complain that a submission is inappropriate.
>Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. That tramples curiosity
>Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken.
>Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents.
>Please don't post shallow dismissals
I would have simply flagged your comment if I had sufficient karma to do so.
[+] [-] throw7|3 years ago|reply
Dang, I suggest you close this thread also, cheers.
[+] [-] jones6ofMont|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] whakim|3 years ago|reply