Show HN: Great Books Homeschool beta program

[jkurnia]

I built this customizable literature-based K-12 homeschool curriculum, based on my experience as a homeschool parent. It's designed especially for intellectually curious kids who love to read.

One of the main benefits of homeschooling is the ability to design customized programs of study that let kids learn at their level of challenge in each subject. But since designing custom curricula from scratch requires a huge time commitment and familiarity with children's literature and academic materials, most homeschooling parents don't take advantage of this potential and instead opt for prepackaged curricula.

Great Books Homeschool eliminates a lot of the work involved in designing a complete and rigorous curriculum for homeschooled students. The website generates a default program of study for each student, then helps parents customize it. Transcripts and other records are generated automatically.

Pricing is normally subscription based, but we're offering complimentary access for twelve months to the first 50 users who sign up for our beta testing program. In return, beta testers are requested to complete a monthly questionnaire about their experience with the curriculum.

If you would like to participate in the beta testing program, please first create a free trial account at https://www.greatbookshomeschool.com. Once signed in, go to https://www.greatbookshomeschool.com/parent/beta-application... and complete the application form.

Questions and comments are welcome!

[syzarian]

I have a question about home schooling in general. I'm a teacher with 20+ years of mathematics teaching experience at a community college. I don't know how to teach physics, chemistry, literature, reading, grammar, biology, etc. I especially don't know how to teach such topics to children. I don't know how to spot a learning disability except in an extreme case or to know if a student likely needs special education.

What makes parents with no specialized training think they can do better than the public school system?

My sister homeschooled all 8 of her kids from kindergarten through high school and it shows. It especially shows among the younger kids. Three of the younger kids clearly needed special help and had learning disabilities but her pride prevented her from getting them tested or even acknowledging the possibility that she was wholly incapable of adequately teaching them.

What is it about teaching that makes people with no training think they can do better than trained professionals? Do such people think they can be a police officer without training? a nurse or doctor without training?

I don't intend this to be confrontational. I'm curious about the thought process. I know there are cases where a parent can be better than what is provided by the public school system but I think far more parents are homeschooling who shouldn't be. I assume you are the exception and your efforts at homeschooling are justified.

[dabbledash]

>> What is it about teaching that makes people with no training think they can do better than trained professionals?

Teaching one or two students whose home situation supports you 100% is a much much less daunting proposition than trying to teach a class of 30 kids (or several such classes).

The idea that teaching things to your own children (which all humans have done forever) requires specialized training and credentials seems silly. But again, that's a very different job than being a school teacher, I think.

[AnimalMuppet]

First: If you need help, get help. If you can't do it, stop trying to do it.

Second: There are communities (homeschool co-ops and such) that can help.

Third, though: Do not underestimate yourself. You know a lot of physics for a third-grader. You can teach that, even if you have to read the textbook right beside the student. (You may not be able to by high school, though.) And you have a great advantage. One of the key things in teaching is classroom size. The difference between a classroom of 30 and an classroom of 4 is massive.

[toomuchtodo]

Because the experience public school provides is an exceptionally low bar considering class sizes/ratios, commuting to and from school, etc. Also, we can pour resources into our kids public schools can’t or won’t. The data also shows homeschool outcomes to be at parity or superior to public school outcomes. We only have two kids though, and my partner is a stay at home parent. We also rely on Modulo, among other resources, for structuring education delivery.

https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/522078

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33204988

https://www.modulo.app/homeschool

[1123581321]

Your question quickly progressed from polite inquiry to decidedly confrontational and personal. I kind of loved it. :) I'm sorry about what happened to your sister's disabled kids.

The general reason parents can confidently provide primary education is that a) good educational materials are easy to research and acquire, b) the benefit of education closely tailored to a child's strengths and weaknesses meets or exceeds the benefit of institutional pedagogical theory and classroom management skills.

In secondary education years, access to material and closely meeting needs still factors, but the parents' operating principle is increasingly about pulling in the best sources available. That often means community college or part-time high school classes.

There are also a lot of homeschool co-ops, pods, and other resource and skill-sharing arrangements. Lots of variety.

All your examples of authority figures are trained to be effective over a high volume of lower trust interactions with the general population, relying on professional incentives to perform. They are needed but they're most effective when complementing and backing up parents who cannot for whatever reason provide care, correction and education at home.

[yucky]

I suppose part of the consideration would be seeing how poorly so many public schools fare and how test scores continue to fall. And now, many schools don't even have textbooks because everything is digital. Even though we have studies showing how that has a negative impact on kids learning.

Is it the solution? I dunno, but public schools are getting worse by the year so I understand people trying something different.

[benatkin]

Part of it is the statistics. I don't fault people for deciding to homeschool at this point as long as they make sure other needs besides education are addressed, because the data are there and it doesn't show conclusively that homeschooling is worse, though it doesn't show it's better either. If it was much worse on average, that would show. Also a common pitfall is homeschooling only out of protectiveness. That alone isn't a very good reason to homeschool - at least not before other options including going to another school or perhaps even moving are exhausted. Protectiveness can be the start of researching about homeschooling but people should have more reasons homeschooling is likely to work well for them other than just that it's safer before actually starting to homeschool IMO.

[bitlax]

> What makes parents with no specialized training think they can do better than the public school system?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAzsJt1Q7Jc

[paulryanrogers]

> What is it about teaching that makes people with no training think they can do better than trained professionals?

My guess is Dunning-Kruger effect and studies highlighting academic benefits from homeschooling.

[antiviral]

Interesting idea!

Anyone who likes the idea of a great books program should check out St. John's College in Annapolis MD and their curriculum:

Suggested book curriculum by year: https://www.sjc.edu/academic-programs/undergraduate/great-bo...

All in one PDF: https://www.sjc.edu/application/files/4115/4810/0934/St_John...

There's also the old Britannica Great books printed book set. You can just look at their book list and get them one by one when you're ready:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Books_of_the_Western_Wor...

Also, almost all of these books are old enough that their copyrights have expired so you can download them for free from the Gutenberg e-library: https://gutenberg.org/

For example, here is a free copy of Plato's Gorgias:

https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/1672/pg1672-images.html

One feature I've wished for is some way to format these free books and make them more reader-friendly. That would save future readers time to do it themselves. I would pay for something like that.

[yamtaddle]

There's also the famous Harvard Classics, or the 5-Foot Shelf, sold as a kind of primary-sources curriculum, complete with a reading plan:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_Classics

A Great List of Great Book Lists:

http://sonic.net/~rteeter/greatbks.html

[EDIT] On this:

> Also, almost all of these books are old enough that their copyrights have expired so you can download them for free from the Gutenberg e-library: https://gutenberg.org/

I'd caution readers to also evaluate in-copyright editions, especially in the case of works in translation. Used books are cheap and it's worth getting the best possible translation (however one chooses to evaluate that) if one is going to spend hours with it.

And:

> One feature I've wished for is some way to format these free books and make them more reader-friendly. That would save future readers time to do it themselves. I would pay for something like that.

Standard Ebooks?

https://standardebooks.org

Not comprehensive, but they've got a lot.

[Ninjinka]

There is also a set of study guides that go with the old Britannica Great Books set called "The Great Ideas Program"! Somewhat hard to find nowadays though.

[sputknick]

Homeschool dad for 12 years here. I like the direction you are going, I see this as useful, productive, helpful. My concern is your pricing seems to be pretty far off from what homeschool parents generally pay. I would suggest something more in line with $40-$100 a year. more than that you will get a lot of hesitation, less than that, it might come across as not valuable.

[sparrish]

$40/month for a list of books to check out at the library seems a bit much. Transcripts aren't difficult so what additional value do you offer for that price?

[jkurnia]

Thanks, this is helpful to hear. It's interesting that one of the main pieces of feedback we get is about pricing. Some people say that it is overpriced, others that we should be charging more.

To answer your question, we have quite a bit of original content and functionality beyond the book lists and transcripts. And based on my experience assembling customized homeschooling curricula for my kids, the book curation in itself is a major value add. If it saves the parent just a few hours of research time, or connects the student with just a few resources beyond what parents could find on their own, it would be worth the cost for many families.

The main differentiator in a homeschooling curriculum is what the student will spend his/her time doing and reading, and optimizing this seems like it would be worth paying for a service rather than relying on free book lists from the internet. That's our hypothesis, anyway.

[yamtaddle]

I looked for a sample unit and couldn't find one. Does indeed seem expensive, even if it's pretty good by the standards of such things.

[benatkin]

> It's designed especially for intellectually curious kids who love to read.

What does "intellectually curious" mean here exactly? The reasons people homeschool mostly seem to be about being (over)protective, which goes against it:

"Parents were asked which of the reasons they homeschooled was the most important reason. Figure 2 and table 4 show the most important reasons students were being homeschooled in 2003, as reported by parents of homeschooled students. Concern about the environment of other schools and to provide religious or moral instruction were the top two most important reasons cited. About a third of students had parents who cited concern about the environment of other schools as their most important reason for homeschooling (31 percent). Approximately another third of homeschooled students had parents who were homeschooling primarily to provide religious or moral instruction (30 percent). Sixteen percent of homeschooled students had parents whose primary reason for homeschooling was dissatisfaction with the academic instruction available at other schools, making this the third most common primary reason for homeschooling."

https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/homeschool/parentsreasons.asp

It would be great if you could help some to get some what they're missing from being shielded from other schools, but to make it sound like homeschooling is more efficient and that all the time saved enables more learning does not reflect the typical homeschool experience.

Also some do online charter school where a company gets thousands of dollars a year per student to give people lousy content (when there's great free content on Khan Academy) and no social connection. It seems pretty bleak. https://www.reddit.com/r/education/comments/3r4w96/study_on_...

[lolinder]

This feels less like an sincere question for OP than it does an uninformed attack on homeschooling in general. You start with a phrase OP used to describe their target audience, imply that there is no such homeschool family, and then tangent off into unrelated attacks that show a strong lack of nuance.

Yes, there are families that homeschool for the wrong reasons. But there are plenty of others (as your own cited stats show) who choose to homeschool because the public education system kinda sucks. Those families (my own included) are very conscientious about addressing the known weaknesses of homeschooling through co-ops and other tools.

[cjensen]

Don't dismiss too easily the real needs to homeschool for some people.

I have a friend whose child had some learning disability. The school district's "solution" was to put them in the disabled class with an overwhelmed teacher and call it a day. Homeschooling allowed the parent to ensure their child had a full education at a pace the child could handle.

Another friend had a gifted child who was pretty bored. Homeschooling let the child plow through the material at a more challenging pace and then continue to challenge themselves with material no high school would have taught.

Homeschooling is an alternative that some people pretty much have to take for their children's sake. Homeschooling is harder for the parents than regular schooling and is not a decision taken lightly.

[all2]

> and no social connection

I've seen great benefits come out of home schooling co-ops. You get the ability to have your child learn at their pace and study subjects they find interesting (to a certain extent, obviously), the added benefit of a little less labor on the part of individual parents, and a social group of kiddos that are following a similar path.

[myself248]

"Mostly" is not everyone, and frankly I tend to forget the religious weirdos even exist. All the homeschooling families I knew were doing it because the local schools sucked; even those with "gifted and talented" programs couldn't keep up.

If this scratches an itch for some homeschoolers, it's valid and useful. There will always be others for whom it is not interesting, but so what?

[TehShrike]

I like the idea. I'm having a bit of trouble picturing exactly what I'd be getting though – what format are the book lists presented in, and what sorts of materials do you include with them?

A page with a couple sample emails that I could read without having to create an account would help me. Maybe there is one somewhere, but I couldn't find it.

[jkurnia]

That's a good idea. Maybe we can include some screenshots in the homepage or How It Works page to give visitors a better idea of what it looks like when you create an account and generate curricula.

[PSNapier]

Nice to see a homeschooling curriculum that appears to be more secular!

[jkurnia]

Yes, this is a secular curriculum. It's intended to address a bit of a market gap in that respect as well.

[all2]

From the overview by grade page [0]

> Note that the curriculum does not introduce writing this year. [...]

I find this strange. I have a lot of penmanship homework from my two years (!!) of kindergarten and first grade. It seems odd to me to not include it in kindergarten. Your reasoning seems to make sense to me, but I'd be tempted to teach in the way I was taught because it worked -- for better or worse -- for me.

Are there a developmental psychology resources that you use for making decisions like these?

---

From [0], you have

> We have includes Calico Spanish

It should be "We have included".

---

From [0] and from the subject guides drop-down

> Supervise your child's writing practice closely in the beginning to ensure that he or she is forming letters using the correct stroke direction and order. Incorrect habits established at this stage are difficult to unlearn later.

I don't see an inclusion of penmanship here anywhere. As I understand it, penmanship is incredibly important for the development of fine motor skills in children (note that girls will develop faster than boys in this area of study). Are there plans to include penmanship?

<edit> Nevermind, I found it in the 3rd grade section.[1] </edit>

---

> Allow your child to choose any easy readers, comic books or simple series books that appeal to him or her. The priority at this level is to establish the habit of reading for enjoyment.

Yes! I refused to learn to read until my mother got me a subscription to Sonic the Hedgehog (we had the first issue of the comic book series for a long, long time). After I got started in comic books, my reading habit was fueled by my own interests.

---

From [1]

> You should complement your child's science exploration by taking frequent trips to your local library and having him or choose nonfiction or science-related books to incorporate into independent reading time.

This is awkwardly phrased.

---

I could keep going. I want to keep going, but I've other tasks that need my attention. Thank you for creating this and I wish you luck in rolling it out!

[0] https://www.greatbookshomeschool.com/grades [1] https://www.greatbookshomeschool.com/grades#Thi

[jkurnia]

Thanks for this detailed feedback!

Re introducing reading separately from writing, this is recommended in The Well-Trained Mind and A Parent's Guide to Teaching Reading and worked well with my two sons. Both learned to read fluently at age four, but needed a couple years beyond that to develop the fine motor skills and attention span needed to form letters well. That said, many kids are ready to write at an earlier age and we try to make it easy for parents to edit the default curriculum and do things like move the first-grade writing component to kindergarten. The main point is that learning to read doesn't need to be coupled with writing.

The typo and awkward phrasing you mentioned are fixed now. :)

[quacked]

> I find this strange. I have a lot of penmanship homework from my two years (!!) of kindergarten and first grade.

I'll have to see if I can find the studies, but a lot of researchers have been finding that rushing to introduce kids to things doesn't make a great impact and in fact sometimes holds them back from lifetime achievement. (This does not apply to true prodigies.) Off the top of my head, some researchers have found that penmanship isn't that useful at an age where fine motor skills still need a lot of development, and the Soviet union found that waiting an extra 2-3 years to introduce children to math resulted in better, faster, more confident math students.

[snotrockets]

I couldn't find a list of said books. Which makes me assume the name is indeed a dog whistle, and not just a marketing coincidence.

[bequanna]

Dog whistle? I don’t follow.

[rpmisms]

Phenomenal! Good books are critical, and were formative to me. Add Life of Fred for math and you're golden.

[jkurnia]

We actually do include Life of Fred as an optional supplement for elementary grades and an alternative core curriculum for high school. My seven-year-old loves it!

[hbarka]

Yuval Noah Harari is Great Books?

[no-reply]

"Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind" is a book without much facts or evidence. Other books by the author would likely be somewhere around. So, not a great book, but more like a story book.

Though I assume they just slapped some book covers on the website in hurry.

[jschveibinz]

Hello. I am truly not throwing rocks, because I think that a well-curated curriculum for this area of learning is very important.

Nevertheless, AI is upon us, so here is a link to a “Poe:Sage” answer to the question:

“what is a good homeschooling curriculum for k-12 based on ‘the great books’ of western culture.”

I hope you find this useful…

https://poe.com/s/Um9NGaFBlpJNJpNwPFSk

[jkurnia]

Thanks! I am familiar with some of these and a big fan of The Well-Trained Mind.

Our curriculum uses "Great Books" in a broader sense of quality fiction and nonfiction literature, which includes classical Western literature but also lots of modern and non-Western books.