My Fermilab story: when I was designing my dissertation experiment it became clear that i would need ~$100k in silicon strip charged particle detectors, and that no company would ever microbond the thousands of connections for me due to the low volume. Fermilab gave me detectors that had been QC rejects from the outer barrel of the CMS detector at CERN for free, and bonded them to my boards for essentially materials cost. For my purposes they worked perfectly. The microbonding machines and the wonderful people associated with them are still to the best of my knowledge the only viable place in the US to have 9x9 cm silicon autobonded in small volume.
There are continuous technical workforce challenges in science because the methods keep advancing. If only there were money it. Instead we have engineers, scientists, and physicians driving Uber and we outsource and offshore the entire scientific supply chain.
Back in 2015 when I still thought I'd be a physicist, I was a summer intern at Fermilab on the MicroBooNE experiment. The sense of excitement and teamwork on the 10th floor was something I dearly missed when I went to CERN the year after.
Every day at 3pm was "coffee and cookies", and my colleagues and I would join the line filled with physicists of all ages and from across the lab, to grab a cookie or maybe two. On Fridays the coffee turned into wine and the cookies into cheese.
The second floor, where the coffee was, had a rotating art installation, which at some point included an acrylic box filled with water. One day this box went from being empty to containing a live goldfish.
I hope Fermilab retains this sense of magic that I have found in so few other places.
When I last worked in person in IT, a few members of my team would get up at 2pm to get coffee and chat about work and life. Different people went in the mornings. It was really useful to team-build and feel decent about work.
People who say "I don't have friends at work" with pride are completely foreign to me. I don't understand how people are supposed to have any joy at work, or get over comms barriers, when there is no opportunity to get to know coworkers as people.
One of my great joys as a teenager exploring electronics was the opportunity to clean out an old storage closet at some Fermilab facility with a friend. This was in the late 80s, we got several 1950s oscilloscopes and much other gear of similar era.
The room had been overlooked in the usual surplus process for years. My friend was related to someone working for the janitorial services company, and they'd been told to clean that room out and throw the stuff away. So what we got to do was help with that, and put anything we liked in my car instead of the dumpster.
We were stripping stuff there in the parking lot to save space. Crammed that car full of junk. It was a truly wonderful day.
As a teenager I got to work and study at Fermi for two weeks under a DoE summer program. There was one kid from each US state and territory, and a few from other countries. We worked in the shops assembling the D0 and Leon Lederman tried to teach cosmology, which was both an incredible privilege and ultimately futile. I was eating in the cafeteria the day the Texas Supercollider was canceled and I don’t think there’s ever been a sadder crowd of physicists anywhere.
This is tangential at best but I was in Chicago,US once for a business trip and we had weekends off so we did some sight-seeing and one Sunday late afternoon we were close to Fermilab so we decided to take a look.
The building was empty but open, there's a museum upstairs but when we got lost between floors we would just walk between cubicles that were clearly in use during the week, it was super wierd and cool at the same time. We didn't see the accelerator of course but still, we saw some control rooms etc..., to this day I'm not sure if we broke in or what
Fermilab was built from late 1967 and opened in 1969 so that must have been really old stuff.
Similar to your story, I got to take high school physics extra classes there, and it was awesome, like being in a Star Wars set with entirely normal parents who worked there and who could teach us really interesting physics (classical mostly, and relativity).
I tried taking apart one of those old oscilloscopes. After the first screw, I heard a few nuts and parts drop behind it. I knew it was never going to be the same again. Complicated instruments.
One of my favorite memories from thirty years ago in college was having small group breakfast with a few other students through the honor's program with Leon Lederman, the Nobel winning physicist that was the then Director of Fermilab. He had a lot of great stories about how big government funded research worked and was very charismatic.
I toured Fermilab later in college while we where near there for an ACM programming competition. The one thing I remember from the tour was a big red button labeled "Start" next to some huge experiment. The tour guide saw us looking at it and said something like "You don't want to touch that". I've often wondered if that was real or just a prop they used for tours.
Btw, I'll never forget what Leon said when asked by a physics student about what the most important thing to learn or study as an undergrad. He said, "learn to write".
> However, Fermilab may not deserve all the blame, says a theoretical physicist who requested anonymity to protect relations with DOE. For example, he says, after the lab finally hammered out an excavation contract with Thyssen Mining, months passed before DOE approved it. “I’m not sure whether it’s really the lab that has a problem, or if it’s DOE that has a problem and is blaming the lab.”
If you need anonymity to talk to a reporter, you already know that DOE has a problem.
> If you need anonymity to talk to a reporter, you already know that DOE has a problem.
I know nothing of the issues going on but this just isn't a universal truth. Most people would speak anonymously when talking about their employer and that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with their employer.
Which employers allow their employees to speak poorly of them in public without permission to speak about the company?
A big issue at these labs is that there's this idea that people with PhDs think only others with technical PhDs can manage things. Management takes a certain set of skills, and quite a lot of PhDs have zero experience outside of academic environments with managing things.
> “We did not write a very good contract for the excavation,” ... “There were all kinds of loopholes in it, and the excavation company made an awful lot of money off of us.”
Another thing that strikes me is, why is construction in the U.S. so corrupt and such a money pit? I don't think I have ever heard of a large construction project being delivered on time and on budget. I understand construction is very difficult, but it just seems out of control.
I grew up in the Chicago suburbs and got accepted into the Saturday Morning Physics Program (https://saturdaymorningphysics.fnal.gov/) at Fermilab. Many of the lectures went completely over my head at the time but I was still in awe of the particle accelerator on campus. I actually got lost driving to a different building one Saturday and accidentally drove around the ring (with several people blindly following me). Their neutrino experiment, which was planned to shoot neutrinos to Minnesota (MINOS program), was on the imminent horizon and the staff were excited... apparently that was ended in 2016.
I guess it's a hard life being known for a particle accelerator when you get dethroned by CERN and then shut down your ring.
Fermilab has been in trouble for a while. They did not diversify enough at the tail end of Tevatron and (I think) are mostly working on DUNE, which isn’t going great. You can’t have a lab that big with mostly a singular focus which is being executed poorly.
Your comment reminded me of a Youtube documentary about "the missing American particle collider"[0]. The documentary touches on some Fermilab drama, but most of the content is aimed at politics (and in particular, how presidential politics is unfortunately intertwined with funding for science mega-projects in the US).
The real problem is that theoretical particle physics had hit a local optimum that they can't break out of. String theory hasn't panned out, quantum gravity hasn't panned out, and no one really knows where to go next.
This is a complete misunderstanding of the state of physics. The problem is not theoretical physics, if anything, the problem lies in our technological/engineering prowess that has not been able to follow our advances in physics.
The Standard Model has some issues but it's, in principle, a valid effective description of all the fundamental forces minus gravity. The issue is that quantum effects of gravity are negligible until the Planck scale, we have no technological means to get even close to those levels. That is, physicists have been able to provide an understanding of the universe that for all we know for certain might be valid up to the Planck scale, which is where we know for sure new physics must appear. And because our technological ability is lagging much farther behind they must probe that new physics blindly, without any experimental evidence. This is an incredibly difficult thing to do.
Imagine that the ancient greeks managed to discover Quantum Mechanics. They lay down the correct Schrodinger equation, and understand the superposition principle, Heisenberg uncertainty principle, etc. They know it can potentially explain the atom but lacking sufficient engineering prowess they cannot really test the theory and verify its validity. This is the situation physics is in, we have mathematically consistent theories of quantum gravity but we cannot know if it's the correct description of the universe because experimental evidence is inaccessible and might be inaccessible for centuries to come.
DOE should really be spending more money on condensed matter physics than on high-energy physics, at least the former has more practical applications and research can be done with smaller budgets, and the latter has plateaued in many ways.
Neutrinos are pretty fascinating, it's true, but the price tag's pretty high. DOE could instead be financing solar PV research, battery research, etc... although then the politicians would likely cut their budget under pressure from the investor-owned utilities and fossil fuel exporters.
DOE already funds a ton of research programs in battery tech, PV, and other renewables. I mean it would be great if they could fund even more, but you make it seem like some kind of politically untenable topic when it’s not
Some categories shouldn't be privatized like medicine, military arms, basic science, road maintenance, and emergency rescue operations. Elon isn't going to work on particle physics without a direct commercial purpose.
Private does not mean for-profit. Funding and performance are two different things. Road construction is funded by government, but performed by private companies.
It’s worth noting that these large-scale projects, like the Long Baseline Neutrino Facility and Deep Underground Neutrino Experiment, are incredibly complex and have no real historical precedent. The sheer scale and ambition of these endeavors make it nearly impossible to accurately predict timelines and budgets.
It's easy to criticize Fermilab for cost overruns and delays, but we must remember that they are pushing the boundaries of scientific knowledge and technology. The nature of cutting-edge research means that there will always be unknowns and challenges that cannot be anticipated.
I think it is a poor idea for the Department of Energy to being hiring businesses or organizations to be managing the National Laboratories. This means there are three levels of management: the DOE, the managing organization/business (such as the University of Chicago) and the lab itself. Eliminate this middle layer--so that management is either done by the DOE or the laboratory.
I expect many scientists would quit working for a lab if they had to become direct gov't employees and those who are non-US citizens would be even more excluded than they are now. Both results would degrade the quality of the scientific output of the labs and not necessarily save any gov't expenditure. I also suspect the contractor layer gives some continuity and smoothing of the rocky year-to-year games played by executive and congress critters.
>Theoretical physicist and Nobel Laureate Steven Weinberg had this to say on [the SSC's] cancellation:
>>Spending for the Superconducting Super Collider had become a target for a new class of congressmen elected in 1992. They were eager to show that they could cut what they saw as Texas pork, and they didn’t feel that much was at stake. The cold war was over, and discoveries at the SSC were not going to produce anything of immediate practical importance.
Threads like these make me really happy to be a Hacker News reader. This is a slice of life that is very far afield from my own but one where I appreciate the attention to detail and correctness that holds the whole damn thing together.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the hacker mentality extends far beyond software. The hacker mentality is a way of life.
yummypaint|2 years ago
killjoywashere|2 years ago
https://www.latimes.com/local/education/la-me-caltech-glassb...
There are continuous technical workforce challenges in science because the methods keep advancing. If only there were money it. Instead we have engineers, scientists, and physicians driving Uber and we outsource and offshore the entire scientific supply chain.
chinaman425|2 years ago
[deleted]
dt23|2 years ago
Every day at 3pm was "coffee and cookies", and my colleagues and I would join the line filled with physicists of all ages and from across the lab, to grab a cookie or maybe two. On Fridays the coffee turned into wine and the cookies into cheese.
The second floor, where the coffee was, had a rotating art installation, which at some point included an acrylic box filled with water. One day this box went from being empty to containing a live goldfish.
I hope Fermilab retains this sense of magic that I have found in so few other places.
unethical_ban|2 years ago
People who say "I don't have friends at work" with pride are completely foreign to me. I don't understand how people are supposed to have any joy at work, or get over comms barriers, when there is no opportunity to get to know coworkers as people.
nukeman|2 years ago
DangitBobby|2 years ago
peteradio|2 years ago
h2odragon|2 years ago
The room had been overlooked in the usual surplus process for years. My friend was related to someone working for the janitorial services company, and they'd been told to clean that room out and throw the stuff away. So what we got to do was help with that, and put anything we liked in my car instead of the dumpster.
We were stripping stuff there in the parking lot to save space. Crammed that car full of junk. It was a truly wonderful day.
jeffbee|2 years ago
I wonder if they still do that summer program.
ithinkso|2 years ago
The building was empty but open, there's a museum upstairs but when we got lost between floors we would just walk between cubicles that were clearly in use during the week, it was super wierd and cool at the same time. We didn't see the accelerator of course but still, we saw some control rooms etc..., to this day I'm not sure if we broke in or what
jjtheblunt|2 years ago
Similar to your story, I got to take high school physics extra classes there, and it was awesome, like being in a Star Wars set with entirely normal parents who worked there and who could teach us really interesting physics (classical mostly, and relativity).
mycall|2 years ago
DeathArrow|2 years ago
unknown|2 years ago
[deleted]
dugmartin|2 years ago
I toured Fermilab later in college while we where near there for an ACM programming competition. The one thing I remember from the tour was a big red button labeled "Start" next to some huge experiment. The tour guide saw us looking at it and said something like "You don't want to touch that". I've often wondered if that was real or just a prop they used for tours.
Btw, I'll never forget what Leon said when asked by a physics student about what the most important thing to learn or study as an undergrad. He said, "learn to write".
Kon-Peki|2 years ago
If you need anonymity to talk to a reporter, you already know that DOE has a problem.
chollida1|2 years ago
I know nothing of the issues going on but this just isn't a universal truth. Most people would speak anonymously when talking about their employer and that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with their employer.
Which employers allow their employees to speak poorly of them in public without permission to speak about the company?
Spooky23|2 years ago
bmitc|2 years ago
> “We did not write a very good contract for the excavation,” ... “There were all kinds of loopholes in it, and the excavation company made an awful lot of money off of us.”
Another thing that strikes me is, why is construction in the U.S. so corrupt and such a money pit? I don't think I have ever heard of a large construction project being delivered on time and on budget. I understand construction is very difficult, but it just seems out of control.
dreamcompiler|2 years ago
Caligatio|2 years ago
I grew up in the Chicago suburbs and got accepted into the Saturday Morning Physics Program (https://saturdaymorningphysics.fnal.gov/) at Fermilab. Many of the lectures went completely over my head at the time but I was still in awe of the particle accelerator on campus. I actually got lost driving to a different building one Saturday and accidentally drove around the ring (with several people blindly following me). Their neutrino experiment, which was planned to shoot neutrinos to Minnesota (MINOS program), was on the imminent horizon and the staff were excited... apparently that was ended in 2016.
I guess it's a hard life being known for a particle accelerator when you get dethroned by CERN and then shut down your ring.
prpl|2 years ago
ccooffee|2 years ago
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivVzGpznw1U&list=PLAB-wWbHL7...
dmix|2 years ago
The video of the project is pretty cool https://youtu.be/nv13DswIKr8
Shooting neutrinos through the earth 1300km in 4ms
scheme271|2 years ago
pfdietz|2 years ago
alangibson|2 years ago
pa7x1|2 years ago
The Standard Model has some issues but it's, in principle, a valid effective description of all the fundamental forces minus gravity. The issue is that quantum effects of gravity are negligible until the Planck scale, we have no technological means to get even close to those levels. That is, physicists have been able to provide an understanding of the universe that for all we know for certain might be valid up to the Planck scale, which is where we know for sure new physics must appear. And because our technological ability is lagging much farther behind they must probe that new physics blindly, without any experimental evidence. This is an incredibly difficult thing to do.
Imagine that the ancient greeks managed to discover Quantum Mechanics. They lay down the correct Schrodinger equation, and understand the superposition principle, Heisenberg uncertainty principle, etc. They know it can potentially explain the atom but lacking sufficient engineering prowess they cannot really test the theory and verify its validity. This is the situation physics is in, we have mathematically consistent theories of quantum gravity but we cannot know if it's the correct description of the universe because experimental evidence is inaccessible and might be inaccessible for centuries to come.
photochemsyn|2 years ago
Neutrinos are pretty fascinating, it's true, but the price tag's pretty high. DOE could instead be financing solar PV research, battery research, etc... although then the politicians would likely cut their budget under pressure from the investor-owned utilities and fossil fuel exporters.
rsfern|2 years ago
1letterunixname|2 years ago
kingstoned|2 years ago
edgyquant|2 years ago
luckylion|2 years ago
stametseater|2 years ago
[deleted]
analognoise|2 years ago
samstave|2 years ago
an1sotropy|2 years ago
vuciv1|2 years ago
It's easy to criticize Fermilab for cost overruns and delays, but we must remember that they are pushing the boundaries of scientific knowledge and technology. The nature of cutting-edge research means that there will always be unknowns and challenges that cannot be anticipated.
gammarator|2 years ago
https://arxiv.org/abs/1409.0003
pasttense01|2 years ago
frumiousirc|2 years ago
RedCondor|2 years ago
>>Spending for the Superconducting Super Collider had become a target for a new class of congressmen elected in 1992. They were eager to show that they could cut what they saw as Texas pork, and they didn’t feel that much was at stake. The cold war was over, and discoveries at the SSC were not going to produce anything of immediate practical importance.
https://redsails.org/concessions/#education-and-research-its...
Animats|2 years ago
josh2600|2 years ago
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the hacker mentality extends far beyond software. The hacker mentality is a way of life.
iampivot|2 years ago
blueline|2 years ago
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-UOpsfRLRr_I/VbhWuR4OeBI/AAAAAAAAB...
https://live.staticflickr.com/3800/33033871090_f658526696_b....
The art and architecture around the lab has a surprisingly rich history dating back to its first director who was also a sculptor/artist: https://history.fnal.gov/historical/art_arch/art_architectur...