Exploratory spaceflight puts scientific ideas, scientific thinking, and scientific vocabulary in the public eye. It elevates the general level of intellectual inquiry. The idea that we've now understood something never grasped by anyone who ever lived before—that exhilaration, especially intense for the scientists involved, but perceptible to nearly everyone—propagates through the society, bounces off walls, and comes back at us. It encourages us to address problems in other fields that have also never before been solved. It increases the general sense of optimism in the society. It gives currency to critical thinking of the sort urgently needed if we are to solve hitherto intractable social issues. It helps stimulate a new generation of scientists. The more science in the media-especially if methods are described, as well as conclusions and implications-the healthier, I believe, the society is. People everywhere hunger to understand.
This is a technology demonstrator so it makes sense to start with just a drop but looking at the size of the launch vehicle and the parameters tested here, seems like the progress is coming on slow as the article mentions this was first tested in 2016.
I am not very familiar with rockets, so this might be out of ignorance but wouldn't the plane like characteristics of this TD make it hard to use for actual launch rockets as they travel quite a bit up and having the winged body might add extra overhead compared to a cylindrical stage.
Winged body is supposed to be second stage, sitting vertically on the rocket which lifts the whole rocket. Winged body cross section is almost circular that should match the lifting rocket, reducing the drag considerably.
This winged RLV, vertical landing launchers etc. are research programs that are generally under funded low priority programs. With the launch of India's human spaceflight program, RLV went even further down or priority list. I don't expect anything to come out of this in this decade, until after HSP program launches.
As an Indian, I'm proud of what ISRO does. With the constraints given to them, (financial, political, social) it's a marvel they're still able to deliver results as often as they do.
As an Indian taxpayer I'm frustrated that I effectively cannot control how my money is used.
The central government spent $2 B on the Central Vista project, which is a wholly unnecessary construction project for our 550 MPs to feel better about themselves. Incidentally, this is the same as the entire annual budget allocated to ISRO, which benefits hundreds of millions of Indians and no doubt has an effect of all of us.
I would much rather they double ISROs budget and let MPs work in the perfectly adequate building they already had.
Why India should continue to invest in space technology?
Odisha cyclone in 1999: 10,000 dead.
Odisha cyclone of similar intensity in 2019: < 50 dead because ISRO was better equipped to track the cyclone path giving enough time for Govt to evacuate people to safety.
Ignore the ignorant including "liberal", "progressive" publications like NYT which publish racist cartoons on Indian space program.
I’m sure that India used its own observation satellites to predict weather patterns and storms but western weather observation satellites monitor the whole Earth and share the information. Not every country should (or can) have its own national weather satellite installation.
So you think they possibly saved 9950 lives, yet a vastly greater number live in poverty and a huge proportion of them are children with no access to healthcare and education, many of them begging in the streets. But yes let's give India a round of applause for finding a minor benefit to their $2bn spending on space exploration (also ignoring the fact that they are not really achieving new science that is not or could not be done by more developed nations).
Congratulations , and I am sure this is just a beginning .
What I find even more interesting is "According to ISRO the configuration of RLV-TD is similar to that of an aircraft and combines the complexity of both launch vehicles and aircraft.". Are there any challenges in going ahead with aircraft like landing which is so much different from Space-X landing of reusable rockets
I can also highly recommend reading: Touching Lives: The Little Known Triumphs of the Indian Space Programme, by SK Das (2007).
Excerpt:
Touching Lives is not merely a chronicle of the community outreach of the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO). It is the story of journeys to far corners of India meeting people whose lives have been transformed by technology.
"It's baffling to me that India is putting so much money into being part of the next space race, when they still have such vast and prominent problems on the ground.
You could say that for many countries, but there is a difference in degree IMO."
Said every racist and ignorant ever. You think we don't have people who make cost benefit analysis before investing in such projects? We don't have parliament and budget sessions?
The payloads we deploy immensely help us socially and technologically advance. Do you know that?
Ed tech itself got eGyanKosh, Swayam, NPTEL, private teachings on govt. platforms so cheap that by next year about a quarter million adults will be uplifted out of poverty. That funding is given to satellites launched by ISRO. Did you know that?
Had it not been for ISRO, we wouldn't have had larger outreach of instant cash transfers and payments. Did you know that?
Had it not been for ISRO we wouldn't be able to fight societal superstitions or bring in public health education drives let alone dumb down power play of society by caste and gender. Do you know that?
That also includes targeted courses for farmers about endemic genetic problems, weather, pests to Artists about film-making. Did you know that?
Even the money we get to deploy other western country's payloads makes people lift out of poverties in a single digit of percentage of populations in a city for every year! Do you know that?
But no. A random pompous clueless stranger on the internet comes to an sweet intelligent discussion site and declares he is baffled and India should now hold a inter-ministerial meeting to stop space projects.
These people have been everywhere from NYTIMES cartoonists to HN unfortunately. I don't understand how should one ban from this site either.
You are not contributing to the intended discussion of this site relating to the link posted, but yourself. You just want to throw around how baffled you are and sleep back in your mother's basement.
You posted well over a dozen flamewar comments to this thread and broke the site guidelines egregiously. We ban accounts that do that. I don't want to ban you, so if you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and avoid this kind of thing in the future—regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are—we'd appreciate it.
I understand how provocative nationalistic flamebait can be, but that's a reason to take a step back and consciously not take the bait. Otherwise we end up in a downward spiral, as happened here.
I completely support India’s decision to develop a space program, and I’m a huge fan of the achievements of ISRO, it’s contribution to Indian society and the advances it’s made on a very constrained budget. The fact is though that any science or technology programme must be prepared to justify its existence and contribution to society. I’m right behind you in supporting that case, but it is entirely reasonable for that case to be questioned.
The US space programme has been questioned in almost exactly the same terms since its inception, without any hint of a racist motive. If it’s reasonable to expect NASA to justify its existence on a cost benefit basis, I think it’s reasonable to question any space programme on that basis. I don't think it’s reasonable to infer racism in this case when there was no specifically racist content in the comment.
If we’re going to convert skeptics into supporters, the way to do that is respectful reasoned argument, not impugning their motives for even asking the question.
Here is an interesting letter by Ernst Stuhlinger, then an associate director of science at NASA's MSFC, written to a nun in the 1970s. He explains the crucial role of space exploration in a country's growth. This topic sparked some engaging conversations on HN in 2012 and 2015:
When I see people make comments like that, I always wonder if they've done the maths of dividing the cost of whatever programme by the number of people in the country. Given India's population, it probably wouldn't amount to much per person, even if you could magically give it out.
Not to mention the skills and industrial development that comes with these mega projects. That sort of stimulation benefits other industries for generat.
The cost effectiveness of these kind of programs is really interesting. It is normal to assume that space is super difficult and this plays into the geeky pride we all have. It is literally rocket science! And then we all get depressed when they go a little over budget or are late. We compare the program to an idealised view of excellence that only exists in our heads. But compared to other human endeavours science and engineering is unreasonably effective. It can break through the mess of human conflict and pettiness that holds us back. It is a great mechanism for getting people to work together for a common cause and we desperately need that. The mission objective is secondary to that.
I agree with your rational conclusion, India should continue to invest in science, technology and space. It's the way to go, more players in space the better.
That said, the sentiment isn't unique to India, and NASA is questioned the same since forever. "Will not tolerate" isn't something that one should feel or write against an opinion, even when presented in a sarcastic way. Make fun of it, argue against it, or ignore it, after all India isn't going to stop its space program because someone in NYT published a cartoon.
US wants to go back to the moon to put the first woman and PoC on it lol. Talk about spending billions of dollars for a token image.
Somehow when Murica does it we should all cheer for it as a great ray of hope for all humanity. Anyone else, there's a long line of "umm, actually..." guys. They just can't accept that a non communist, democratic country can compete with them
you don't ban people for their opinions in free democracies, how so ever absurd and outrageous they may be. Probably you come from a country where people are banned for their views and opinions. But that is not what a free society does.
No world leader is going to read any racist rant on internet and make decision out of it, so chill.
This kind of comment is the first one to show up like clockwork whenever a HN story comes up which doesn’t mention India and poor/corruption/hungry/religion in the same sentence.
Having a space program and specifically a launch vehicle that puts satellites in orbit for other countries brings in foreign exchange revenue. Having a reusable launch vehicle is an improvement on capabilities for competitive pricing. What's not to like here?
Jul 2022: "ISRO earns US$ 279 mn in foreign exchange"
[+] [-] andai|3 years ago|reply
Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot
[+] [-] actuator|3 years ago|reply
I am not very familiar with rockets, so this might be out of ignorance but wouldn't the plane like characteristics of this TD make it hard to use for actual launch rockets as they travel quite a bit up and having the winged body might add extra overhead compared to a cylindrical stage.
[+] [-] mayama|3 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersonic_Flight_Experiment#/...
This winged RLV, vertical landing launchers etc. are research programs that are generally under funded low priority programs. With the launch of India's human spaceflight program, RLV went even further down or priority list. I don't expect anything to come out of this in this decade, until after HSP program launches.
[+] [-] perryizgr8|3 years ago|reply
As an Indian taxpayer I'm frustrated that I effectively cannot control how my money is used.
The central government spent $2 B on the Central Vista project, which is a wholly unnecessary construction project for our 550 MPs to feel better about themselves. Incidentally, this is the same as the entire annual budget allocated to ISRO, which benefits hundreds of millions of Indians and no doubt has an effect of all of us.
I would much rather they double ISROs budget and let MPs work in the perfectly adequate building they already had.
[+] [-] db1234|3 years ago|reply
Odisha cyclone in 1999: 10,000 dead. Odisha cyclone of similar intensity in 2019: < 50 dead because ISRO was better equipped to track the cyclone path giving enough time for Govt to evacuate people to safety.
Ignore the ignorant including "liberal", "progressive" publications like NYT which publish racist cartoons on Indian space program.
[+] [-] galuggus|3 years ago|reply
edit: here's a link https://archive.is/g0msl Shocking that the NYT published something like this
[+] [-] elkos|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] angelgonzales|3 years ago|reply
https://www.nesdis.noaa.gov/current-satellite-missions/curre...
[+] [-] geodel|3 years ago|reply
I guess I just ignore the ignorant, including "deeply insecure" and raging about minor criticism.
[+] [-] vineethkm|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] throwheeh7377|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] celticninja|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] linux_devil|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kkm|3 years ago|reply
Excerpt: Touching Lives is not merely a chronicle of the community outreach of the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO). It is the story of journeys to far corners of India meeting people whose lives have been transformed by technology.
More books about ISRO: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33814.0
[+] [-] Zurrrrr|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sidcool|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] cuteboy19|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] pks016|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alephnerd|3 years ago|reply
I'm Desi American and honestly, HN commentators from both India and the US need to stop being little bitches. It's made HN go to shit.
Boomer American HN commentators - stop being so god damn racist about South Asians. Caste and poverty doesn't define us.
Millennial+Uncle Indian HN commentators - stop using the "school shooting" trope and ultranationalism. Y'all are basically acting like Wumao.
Bring on the downvotes. I'm so sick of all the bullshit on this site
[+] [-] philonoist|3 years ago|reply
"It's baffling to me that India is putting so much money into being part of the next space race, when they still have such vast and prominent problems on the ground.
You could say that for many countries, but there is a difference in degree IMO."
Said every racist and ignorant ever. You think we don't have people who make cost benefit analysis before investing in such projects? We don't have parliament and budget sessions?
The payloads we deploy immensely help us socially and technologically advance. Do you know that?
Ed tech itself got eGyanKosh, Swayam, NPTEL, private teachings on govt. platforms so cheap that by next year about a quarter million adults will be uplifted out of poverty. That funding is given to satellites launched by ISRO. Did you know that?
Had it not been for ISRO, we wouldn't have had larger outreach of instant cash transfers and payments. Did you know that?
Had it not been for ISRO we wouldn't be able to fight societal superstitions or bring in public health education drives let alone dumb down power play of society by caste and gender. Do you know that?
That also includes targeted courses for farmers about endemic genetic problems, weather, pests to Artists about film-making. Did you know that?
Even the money we get to deploy other western country's payloads makes people lift out of poverties in a single digit of percentage of populations in a city for every year! Do you know that?
But no. A random pompous clueless stranger on the internet comes to an sweet intelligent discussion site and declares he is baffled and India should now hold a inter-ministerial meeting to stop space projects.
These people have been everywhere from NYTIMES cartoonists to HN unfortunately. I don't understand how should one ban from this site either.
You are not contributing to the intended discussion of this site relating to the link posted, but yourself. You just want to throw around how baffled you are and sleep back in your mother's basement.
[+] [-] dang|3 years ago|reply
I understand how provocative nationalistic flamebait can be, but that's a reason to take a step back and consciously not take the bait. Otherwise we end up in a downward spiral, as happened here.
[+] [-] simonh|3 years ago|reply
The US space programme has been questioned in almost exactly the same terms since its inception, without any hint of a racist motive. If it’s reasonable to expect NASA to justify its existence on a cost benefit basis, I think it’s reasonable to question any space programme on that basis. I don't think it’s reasonable to infer racism in this case when there was no specifically racist content in the comment.
If we’re going to convert skeptics into supporters, the way to do that is respectful reasoned argument, not impugning their motives for even asking the question.
[+] [-] pncnmnp|3 years ago|reply
Why Explore Space? - https://lettersofnote.com/2012/08/06/why-explore-space/
Here is an interesting letter by Ernst Stuhlinger, then an associate director of science at NASA's MSFC, written to a nun in the 1970s. He explains the crucial role of space exploration in a country's growth. This topic sparked some engaging conversations on HN in 2012 and 2015:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4372563
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8917045
[+] [-] djaychela|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] somedude895|3 years ago|reply
> random pompous clueless stranger
> sleep back in your mother's basement
> sweet intelligent discussion site
You're certainly not acting like you're interested in keeping this space "sweet and intelligent"
[+] [-] greggsy|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 7952|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Aperocky|3 years ago|reply
That said, the sentiment isn't unique to India, and NASA is questioned the same since forever. "Will not tolerate" isn't something that one should feel or write against an opinion, even when presented in a sarcastic way. Make fun of it, argue against it, or ignore it, after all India isn't going to stop its space program because someone in NYT published a cartoon.
[+] [-] thunderbong|3 years ago|reply
Otherwise, you're really stooping down to the same level.
[+] [-] jimsimmons|3 years ago|reply
Somehow when Murica does it we should all cheer for it as a great ray of hope for all humanity. Anyone else, there's a long line of "umm, actually..." guys. They just can't accept that a non communist, democratic country can compete with them
[+] [-] MPlus88|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] golgappa|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] Thorentis|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] HopenHeyHi|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] Zurrrrr|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] jsdeveloper|3 years ago|reply
No world leader is going to read any racist rant on internet and make decision out of it, so chill.
[+] [-] MPlus88|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] Zurrrrr|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] vishnugupta|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] samuraijack|3 years ago|reply
When America started its space program, were all of its problems solved?
In fact, are all of America's problems solved now?
[+] [-] anshumankmr|3 years ago|reply
There is no reason India can't do both.
[+] [-] sirius87|3 years ago|reply
Jul 2022: "ISRO earns US$ 279 mn in foreign exchange"
https://indbiz.gov.in/isro-earns-us-279-mn-in-foreign-exchan...
[+] [-] pm90|3 years ago|reply