Compostable fast-food packaging can emit volatile PFAS

[agtech_andy]

The reality is that US regulatory agencies have been extremely permissive for many years. Many other nations piggy back on their findings. We need a massive increase in enforcement.

What we will see with cheaper and more available testing is that PFAS are everywhere. It is hard to find waterways or soils, even in remote areas, that are not contaminated. It is really tragic and the extent of the pollution can make you crazy.

[jiggywiggy]

It will cause things to move much slower. But I'm thinking we are at the point where we need to move to burden of proof to being safe instead of it being unsafe.

[jorvi]

> Many other nations piggy back on their findings.

This is not true at all. The European Union has been the principal regulatory body for the world for a few decades now, with other countries reactively shaping their policies in the wake of EU regulations.

[voisin]

> Many other nations piggy back on their findings. We need a massive increase in enforcement.

I don’t think it as much an enforcement issue as a standards issue - we shouldn’t presume anything is safe without strict standards for the science proving it.

[Reptur]

They are permissive because the same people who own stock in the manufacturing industry of these containers and food industries also own stock in healthcare. They make money off of the suffering.

[throwaway892238]

You know, we really don't need this disposable culture. Everyone just expects to get a disposable container everywhere they go (in the West, anyway). But we don't need disposable everything. People can carry their own set of utensils, and even their own food packaging; it's not uncommon for people to bring their own tupperwares to restaurants (wrap it in a decorative cloth to be fancy). Restaurants could also give out more robust packaging that costs more, or take a deposit to encourage returns. Personally, I keep the stronger plastic chinese take-out containers.

Back in the day, the disposable container was food. You'd get a portable pie (meaning a meat pie, usually) in what was called a "coffin" - basically a bread bowl or pastry shell that was mostly thrown away after you'd eaten the inside of the pie. Summer rolls and spring rolls have their own wrapper. Meat on a stick was pretty common. Rice balls could contain fish or vegetables. Samosas would have vegetable or meat fillings.

[numpad0]

And there’s the Chesterton’s fence principle. There must be reasons why restaurants provide utensils and packaging. “Because consumerism we can just stop” is not enough.

> Summer rolls and spring rolls

Are served on a dish. May be picked up from a dish by clean hands, but may not be moved more than 5 ft away from a dish.

> Meat on a stick

Is on a stick, usually disposable. Which is barely a “packaging”, too, certainly a bamboo stick is not an edible packaging, not to mention metal skewers.

> Rice balls

Are always eaten from non-edible containers, e.g. Saran wraps, bamboo leaves. Nori is not a packaging. Use of disposable gloves while making is recommended too.

> Samosa

Is served on a dish.

[waboremo]

I thought this was where we were heading with the explosion of popularity with food trucks since they often provide so much quantity of food in "food container" like a burrito, but instead delivery took off.

[lumb63]

Huh, I too dislike disposable culture, but it never occurred to me I could bring my own tupperwares to restaurants. I’ll try that next time!

[ClumsyPilot]

we cam have a country-wide system of reusable packaging that you can get from any takeaway, abd can return to any takeawatly for a refund

[ars]

> People can carry their own set of utensils, and even their own food packaging;

Carry this, carry your own reusable bags. But also get rid of the car which could hold these things for you.

Why is there such a push to make life miserable for people?

[beebeepka]

Man, I have to fight people in bakeries because the majority simply ignore my repeated requests for skipping the plastic bag. Some are fucking mental and simply refuse to comply. Most are incredibly stupid and will never get it. Very few understand immediately.

I think that yes, the main problem is all the entitled fucks demanding "what they paid for"

[janosdebugs]

So, when you order from the average restaurant, you get a meal made of pre-portioned frozen ingredients containing sometimes questionable substances and you also get poisoned by the packaging. And the restaurant industry is complaining. Makes sense. (If you are a German-speaker, ZDFbesseresser is a worthwhile channel to watch. We basically all but stopped going to or ordering from restaurants.)

[adrianmonk]

> And the restaurant industry is complaining.

Huh? This article is about academics doing research.

[beebeepka]

We're not big on ordering food, or take out in general, but I've been thinking about just providing our own metal/glass containers instead of wasting aluminium and paper. My wife is against it. I think she finds this idea embarrassing but I don't care.

[friend_and_foe]

That's because they were never designed to be enviroentally friendly. They were designed to be able to be marketed as environmentally friendly. Big difference. If someone sees it disintegrate they'll think "good, biodegradable" even if that's not actually what's happening. The manufacturers don't care. They know, most of the people raising the hubbub about it don't take the 5 minutes to understand what theyre screeching about, they don't have to appease the environmentalists, they have to appease the pantywads, the kind of people who don't buy animal tested cosmetics but flush them down the drain all the same.

Just use paper for Christ's sake and quit it with all these shenanigans. Brown, recycled paper, maybe some wax. And glass for bottles and things. It's all you need.

[amluto]

If you believe the leading manufacturer in the US, they phased out PFAS in compostable bowls in 2021:

https://www.worldcentric.com/leafplus/

I assume the new coating is some kind of polymerized plant material.

[anonuser123456]

>I assume the new coating is some kind of polymerized plant material.

That’s a bold assumption.

[rgrieselhuber]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/mar/13/toxic-fo...

This is worth noting as well.

[hbarka]

Getting a TOTO bidet is a life-changer. We have running water and flushable toilets but we still dry smear?

[goodpoint]

tl;dr Toxic chemicals is toilet paper.

[samwillis]

I believe one of the other issues with compostable packaging is when it ends up in landfill, rather than being composted. It breaks down significantly quicker than other packaging in an anaerobic environment resulting in a spike of methane emissions.

Obviously, many landfills now collect and use the methane, but many don't and it contributes to greenhouse emissions.

Like many innovations to go green, it's complicated and often hijacked by corporations to sell products.

Compostable packaging isn't the solution, reusable packaging is!

[jacobsimon]

Dumb question but…why do humans keep using toxic chemicals for cooking and storing food? Surely we can find something edible.

[justinator]

PFAS in dental floss:

https://www.ehn.org/pfas-floss-2658203711.html

[ericpauley]

Not bashing the conclusion, but I seriously thought it was common knowledge that Oral B glide and equivalent products were PTFE based.

It’s also annoying that people lump PTFE with other PFAS when it is pretty clearly less of an issue (note: not completely trouble free) in most cases.

[hanniabu]

PFAS in many things you use every day:

https://www.mamavation.com/product-investigations

[r00fus]

I’ve switched to using Radius silk floss - it’s better in almost every way compared to the various brands we’ve tried. Only annoying thing is the packaging but it’s plastic free also.

[ars]

Yah that link is a lie, and I quote: "It’s important to note that our lab is not looking for PFAS compounds directly, because it’s simply impossible to look for all of them."

"levels of organic fluorine, a marker for PFAS" - yah, that's basically an outright lie. Flourine is also a marker for Teflon (PTFE) which is 100% not a problem.

This is junk science taken to it's ultimate level.

[ChancyChance]

Dr Tung FTW!

https://drtungs.com/products/92-smart-floss.html

[uejfiweun]

Looking at a lot of what you folks posted, it seems like PFAS are in just about everything, and there's no realistic way to avoid them without an absurd amount of effort. And they are unlikely to be regulated soon.

So realistically, what's going to happen to people? We're all inevitably going to accumulate a bunch of PFAS, so what exactly can I expect for the future of my health?

[amelius]

Perhaps Darwin will kick in.

[noreiley]

> Packaging manufacturers typically don’t reveal what’s in their products

It seems crazy to me that they don't have to disclose this.

If it's in contact with the food, it will leak into the food and then in our system. We have food ingredients listed on stickers, why not packaging materials?

I can understand keeping secrets about the manufacturing process in the name of competitive capitalism, but at the end of the day the material ends up in our hands (and mouth), so we can always send it to a lab and get its composition.

We could skip this whole "let's do studies to analyze what we were eating daily for all this time" if the industry had to give us the list. If they don't know either, have them do the studies before releasing the product.

[anonymouskimmer]

It's kind of ridiculous that non-disclosure allows 'trade secret' protection of ingredients when, as you say, a lab can tell us the actual ingredients and relative quantities.

We should require disclosure for trade secret protection of chemically-based products. At least to the EPA or FDA. They can still keep the actual recipe and blending instructions secret.

[phoenixreader]

There has been a lot of food packaging toxicity research news lately, for some reason. For example, just two weeks ago, "BPA-like chemical seeps from labels to food" https://www.futurity.org/bisphenol-s-bps-bpa-plastics-chemic...

[nayuki]

Speaking as a complete noob here, what are some alternatives to PFAS linings? Wax? Plant-based plastics?

[tectonic]

Yes to both of those.

[Ekaros]

I actually doubt that plant-based plastics are any better in additives than oil based ones. Wasn't there some years ago whole thing about those reusable "bamboo" polymer coffee cups. That actually they do contained not so beneficial chemicals.

[w3454]

Banana leaves

[steponlego]

We’ll yeah they have to spray cancer poison on the stuff so it’s water and grease resistant. Wax is way too expensive, especially beeswax which wouldn’t have this issue.

You ever wonder what the ingredients are in a paper straw? Don’t look it up. You won’t like it.

[pacomerh]

Consumer reports has an analysis of several restaurants, it's from 2022 but maybe worth a look, https://www.consumerreports.org/health/food-contaminants/dan...

[dbg31415]

I use these, are these horrible?

https://www.costco.com/snapware-pyrex-18-piece-glass-food-st...

What should I use instead?

[ChancyChance]

Those should be fine since they don't have teflon and teflon-related materials: they are non-BPA plastics with silicon seals. Just don't microwave plastic (There are a lot of "ifs" and "buts" around that, but it is better just to not microwave plastic and be safe.) Granted, you are still throwing away plastic once the snaps break. They also make similar types with bamboo lids and a silicone seal.

(Hopefully if I'm wrong someone will shout me down with the correct answer :)

[gruez]

The title literally says "Compostable fast-food packaging can emit volatile PFAS". Your glass container with plastic lid certainly isn't compostable.

[sizzle]

They need to fine these companies and mandate they disclose the chemicals they are impregnating the fibers with to make it “grease resistant”

[carabiner]

Just serve everything in banana leaves at this point.

[tingletech]

https://archive.is/J2Wfh

[modzu]

if canada banned single use plastic, why doesn't that include fluoropolymers?

does the legislation have a formal definition for "plastic"?