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joncfoo | 2 years ago

Next thing you know each wasm assembly will need a package format to ship assets with and have the app server provide common resources to all assemblies, e.g. db connection pools, some notion of security, etc.

Replace Wasmer with the a JVM-based app server and WASM assemblies with JVM-bytecode. The big difference is the source language doesn't matter as long as it's able to be run/replaced by WASM bytecode.

We're heading in circles in a lot of ways

discuss

order

syrusakbary|2 years ago

Indeed. The JVM did a lot of things right, however they missed three that are now solved with Wasm:

* Completely tied to an ecosystem, and incompatible with another (you could not run C programs in the JVM)

* Proprietary (vs based on an open standard)

* They couldn't run in the browser seamlessly

0xbadcafebee|2 years ago

I'm still flabbergasted that all these people, in the year 2023, think a hypertext markup document viewer with a terrible UX and bizarre design restrictions that takes 4GB of RAM to run and re-implements the features of an entire operating system is the end-all be-all of technology. If it doesn't run in a web browser it's worthless.

I can't even come up with a metaphor for it. We're choosing to be stuck with shitty antiquated technology because it's easier than making something better. It's depressing. Like a world that never got past the horse and buggy. Large engines powered by steam would require additional investment in refining of steel and making giant cast or forged parts... easier to just stick with the horse.

ThePhysicist|2 years ago

Funny that most people seem to have forgotten that browsers used to ship with Java support. Not saying that was a good thing, but 20 years ago you could run JVM apps in the browser without issues. Also, there are dozens of language runtimes for the JVM, e.g. Ruby, Python, Golang, Javascript, Scheme, .... And regarding proprietary software, Wasmer is a for-profit startup that seems to offer open-source tooling with the hope the ecosystem will standardize on it and give them opportunities to monetize that. So not that much unlike Java I'd say.

tubs|2 years ago

You can't run c in wasm.

You can compile c to wasm and run that.

In the same way one could compile c to java byte code, write a wrapper program to allocate the "heap", disable the gc and execute it in close to the same way it executes in a wasm runtime.

pitaj|2 years ago

I would also mention that, especially in the past, the JVM sandboxing was not great. Which is why Applets were such a problem.

pookeh|2 years ago

There was a time when JVM ran in the browsers.

yazzku|2 years ago

Memory usage too, right? A C++/Rust wasm won't consume a hundredth of the memory a JVM application typically uses. I like getting the job done on a 512MB RAM VPS. JVM the language might be cool; the bloat and forced-GC can be spared.

pjmlp|2 years ago

It is incredible how with so much Java hate, the WASM folks are doing their best to replicate everything we had in 2005.

moonchrome|2 years ago

Java still doesn't have value types AFAIK. Meanwhile WASM started out as no-gc continuous memory VM.

Comparing WASM and JVM is like comparing a truck and a bus because they are relatively the same size, move at the same speed etc.

I mean sure you can load people in trucks and cargo into buses - and both have been done with JVM (eg. people built C compilers) and WASM (people are building GCed runtimes on top of it despite lack of GC support from platform).

Almost 30 years later nobody sane is running C on JVM and there were many attempts posted here over the years.

dianeb|2 years ago

Sure, this fits the way software evolves on the circle of dumb. It goes something like this: What a great idea!... (a little later) Hmmm. That's a problem... (later) We need something to run apps in the browser. I wonder if WASM would work... (now) What a great idea!...

Software development always goes in cycles. "Apps" were great now maybe not so much so...

In the late 80s/early 90s, the CEO of ETA Systems (a supercomputer company) had a vision that by 2000, the world would be split between supercomputers and workstations. I have seen some evidence that people are considerng that once again... The Circle of Dumb is always with us in software land.

nu11ptr|2 years ago

Honestly, I just think Java was ahead of its time. I hated sites with applets because they felt slow to startup and run. That problem is long gone with modern computers.

miohtama|2 years ago

We are not replicating Oracle’s lawyers, sales agreements and non-disclosure policies.

icedchai|2 years ago

2005? Maybe 1996. That's when I ran (and wrote) my first applet.

herdcall|2 years ago

Multi language support is just one of the selling points, you didn't mention the other two: sandboxed security with explicit capabilities and high performance. E.g., I have a Web Assembly module running on the server (Fermyon) that needs explicit capabilities defined to even make a network call to a Twilio endpoint or read a local file. That means you can run a random Web Assembly module that you with confidence, just like you can typically open a random website on the browser without concern. By contast, you can't say that when running a random Java class that you don't trust.

gabereiser|2 years ago

I was just going to say, this road leads to OSGi...

tiffanyh|2 years ago

Don't forget, a mail server will be included at some point since that always seems inevitable.