Elizabeth Holmes loses bid to stay out of prison

[KindAndFriendly]

Reading this entire story, it baffles me that as of today I can still add a "Full Self-Driving Capability" option when ordering a Tesla.

[JumpCrisscross]

A perverse culture of presumed lawlessness has migrated from Wall Street to Silicon Valley. You see it, here, when top-voted comments scoff at the notion of a perpetrator getting jail time. Hopefully, these sentences result in people being less cavalier about criminality. (Andreessen pivoting back to pumping web3 tempers my hope.)

[AndrewKemendo]

Holmes, Madoff etc... are all the proof that you need that the only people who go to Jail for fraud are the ones whose fraud hurts specifically investors.

[jkaptur]

Just from pop culture, I can come up with a counterexample: https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/reality-show-cast-membe...

I'm not saying you're wrong in the aggregate, but can't you make a better argument? How can noting two people who went to jail for one reason be "all the proof you need"?

[JumpCrisscross]

> the only people who go to Jail for fraud are the ones whose fraud hurts specifically investors

Minus all the other fraud convictions constantly being handed down in America, sure.

[dc-programmer]

Shkreli served prison time for fraud that did not lose investors money. But I think what you are saying has some truth to it

[pankajdoharey]

However you put it, but this judgement proves that justice exists, and i am happy to see scammers put behind bars in the mother of democracy. USA in-spite of its gun culture still rocks in some aspects.

[ljw1001]

Exactly. Only an amateur criminal steals from the rich.

[nickpinkston]

If you steal more than $5K three times in California, you will get 25 years in prison [1], and while I think that's disgusting and detestable, I don't want any elites getting special treatment either, so as to force change in those sentencing guidelines.

[1] https://www.kannlawoffice.com/grand-theft.html

[gumby]

> I don't want any elites getting special treatment either...

These days I normally roll my eyes and stop reading when I encounter someone saying "the elites" but in this case it is 100% appropriate: she was a member of a wealthy elite, and both deliberately and casually used her connections from the get go.

[diydsp]

Three strikes can be triggered with much less, even petty theft can trigger it. In this example, the defendant received 25 years in prison for his third crime of stealing a pair of socks[0]

"Specifically, the Three Strikes law made it possible for a repeat offender to receive a prison sentence of 25 years to life for a nonserious or nonviolent felony (for example, petty theft with a prior)"[1]

[0] https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/cruel-an...

[1] https://lao.ca.gov/2005/3_strikes/3_strikes_102005.htm

[dragonwriter]

The federal sentencing guidelines have nothing to do with California state criminal law. Of course, if an act is both a federal and state crime, you can be prosecuted for each.

In fact, if an act is a crime in multiple states (which is possible), you can be charged and punished separately by each state as well as the federal government if it is also a federal crime. This rarely happens even where theoretically possible, but it can (its much more common for other jurisdictions to prosecute if you are acquitted in one but the act could be prosecuted in another as well.)

[bradleyjg]

Three strikes and you’re out isn’t about retribution, it’s about the strong evidence that the specific deterrence and rehabilitation effect of prison will not work on a particular individual.

[cscurmudgeon]

Are you from the area? On the way I literally walk through multiple open air stolen goods sellers that have been around for years.

The bay area is famous for folks walking out stores with stolen goods:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/after-san-francisco-sho...

You can kill someone with a gun and spend just 7 years in prison.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Kate_Steinle

Btw, I fully support Holmes getting punished but lets not misrepresent the ground reality.

[throwaway5959]

It's pretty disgusting how little jail time she's receiving for the scope of her crimes.

[thih9]

> If you steal more than $5K three times in California (...)

Possible typo, linked article lists $950.

Quote: "Grand Theft is punishable under California's “Three Strikes” system. (...) If you get three “strikes” on your record, you'll serve a minimum of twenty-five years in a state prison. (...) to be guilty of Grand Theft under CPC §§487(a)-(d), you must: Take property or services worth more than $950; or (...)".

Source is the same, i.e.: https://www.kannlawoffice.com/grand-theft.html

[IIAOPSW]

Right, but Holmes didn't steal $5k more than three times. She stole millions of dollars but only did it once. So your statute doesn't apply.

[mchannon]

The Bureau of Prisons will designate where she goes, and unless there's some prevailing medical reason (unlikely), or other reasons involving cooperation, request, security threats, access to particular religious facilities, or a repeat stay, my understanding is they're constrained by statute to pick a reasonable distance from home (that might be only X years from release date though).

The women's FCI in Dublin, California is an easy drive and they (presumably) have her level of security. If she wants to say F California (maybe she did in her PSR) then maybe Bryan TX is her destination. Could also be some random third facility. I don't think if a flight risk to Mexico is a concern that they'd be sending her so close to Mexico, but it may upgrade her security level enough that Dublin's off the table.

It's all time and it all sucks. Her kids will get to see her if their father wants them to, perhaps every weekend.

[mikl]

Couldn’t happen to a nicer gal. Fraudulent businesspeople far too seldom get any serious consequences.

[wpietri]

One of the questions I have about any fraudster is where they fall on the goof/sociopath spectrum. It's surprisingly easy to start a Ponzi scheme by accident, after all. You just offer investors good returns (legal), be too optimistic about how it will go (legal), and then give them the promised returns anyhow by using other investor money (very illegal). I suspect a number of companies even get away with it, as they get in the black fast enough to be able to cover things up. But a lot of the people who get caught look to be eager-to-please fuckups, not calculating criminals.

But if I ever had any question about Holmes, it was richly answered for me by her having not one but two children while under indictment for crimes that yielded an 11-year sentence. I cannot imagine the kind of person who has kids knowing there were good odds they'd have to abandon them for much of their childhood.

[HelloMcFly]

I don't like Holmes and am pleased she's getting some comeuppance, but I can play Devil's Advocate in this one space: maybe she always wanted kids, focused on her career (lol), then this all happened, XYZ. Holmes is 39 years old. If she really, truly wanted biological children then now was the time to make sure it happened. She's a villain, but she's also a complex human being that probably has multiple priorities, goals, ambitions, etc.

Devil's advocating myself: she could freeze eggs too, yes. Can't speculate on the pros and cons of different decisions.

[robocat]

> then give them the promised returns anyhow by using other investor money (very illegal)

Actually, that is normal accepted business in many cases, and not illegal except in specific circumstances.

Classic example is commercial real estate bonds, where they roll over (the new bonds pay the old bond holders).

Or an IPO looks like a Ponzi, but usually isn't.

[RajT88]

The kind of person who would start having children in hopes it would buy leniency in sentencing.

[ExMachina73]

Any bets she actually reports? Odds anyone? I feel a woman of her means and personality may try to disappear, go off grid. Does she still have access to money? Were her assets frozen?

[kepler1]

Now that the ruling has landed, it's clear she's going to prison, and her born and unborn kids have outlasted their purpose, I'm sure she's going to ship them off to whatever outsourced child supervision service she's procured for that purpose. As long as the price was good.

[joering2]

I doubt she ever see a day behind bars. Like Ramesh "Sunny" Balwani. You would think guy is in prison; meanwhile both Wiki and some other pretty decent sources clearly state "free on $500,000 bail".

[polotics]

The news IMHO is how come she's not yet behind bars?

[rwmj]

It's strange isn't it! Does it happen in other countries that you can negotiate when your prison sentence starts? Here in the UK, the judge passes sentence and literally "sends you down" to the cells to start it. (The holding cells in larger courts are physically below the dock where the prisoner is sentenced https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/send-dow... )

Also this rule only seems to apply to rich people. Poor people even in America go straight to prison.

[kevin_thibedeau]

She conned her husband into another child.

[aklemm]

Squeezing in a couple pregnancies while faced with spending her remaining childbearing years in prison adds to the drama and sadness here. What a lady.

[oh_sigh]

There is no such place as Byron, Texas.

[ojbyrne]

Seems like a typo. There is a federal correctional facility in Bryan, Texas: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Prison_Camp,_Bryan

[tptacek]

It's FPC Bryan.

[donatj]

Are ankle monitors in this day and age not to the point where we can't keep people who are yet to be sentenced out of prison?

[dragonwriter]

> Are ankle monitors in this day and age not to the point where we can't keep people who are yet to be convicted out of prison?

She has been tried, convicted, and sentenced, and is trying to avoid prison during her appeal, so your question is irrelevant here.

[ejb999]

she has been tried and convicted already.

[jdthedisciple]

I'm shocked at the sympathy HN has for this criminal.

The same people who blame the investors for being so "naive" to believe her BS.

[indigodaddy]

I don’t know why but in my own perverse way, I can sometimes root for her, even still. Maybe I just see her as a cartoon/movie villain (we will sometimes root for them)—- I somehow don’t accept her a real person.

[stametseater]

Good, her children will be better off not being raised by a felon mother. The father's family has plenty of money, the kids will be well cared for without her around. With luck the father will find a new mother for the kids and they'll forget about Holmes.

[standardUser]

I have a really hard time believing that non-violent crimes should result in a person being locked in a cage. I'd rather see restrictions that limit their ability to do more damage, like when a reckless driver gets their license revoked. Besides, a free person with a job can pay back their debt to society, literally, with money, instead of the rest of us paying their living costs.

EDIT: As comments point out, it is arguable that the crimes in question are violent because they directly jeopardized people's health.

[JumpCrisscross]

> non-violent crimes

I’m in a similar boat. But corruption is uniquely caustic to a society. In its erosion of trust. And in its perpetrators’ unique ability to bounce back and cause trouble anew. Fraud at this scale, at Holmes’ level, is similar in those attributes.

> restrictions that limit their ability to do more damage

Under what penalty?

> free person with a job can pay back their debt to society

Construct a restriction on Holmes. I’ll propose a loophole. Then consider the cost of constantly litigating that with her.

[realusername]

Given she falsified medical results for so long, it's guaranteed some people have died as a result of her actions, that goes further than your average fraud

[nazka]

I actually think it’s worst. One can be a problem of anger issues where, for a time, someone lost it and someone got punched in the face, the other is a long term thought calculated full aware of consequences and with no care for the other. It also usually results in several persons being impacted.

For instance Bayer knowing that their products were contaminated with HIV still chose to sell them. Monsanto with well all their stuff. Corporate crime is really crazier in my opinions. It’s armies of lawyers and businesses men, engineers and stuff having no problem for harm. It’s just less direct than a punch on the face.

Disclaimer: violence is still bad to horrible nonetheless.

[benjamoon]

People always seem to be more forgiving of non violent crimes, but just have your house broken into whist you’re asleep with you kids in the house and it can seriously mess you up. It’s such a massive violation and you’ll struggle to sleep in that house again. I’d take a punch in the face any day of the week.

[micromacrofoot]

I don't think she, or other non-violent criminals, should be in prison. There are much more affordable and constructive ways to handle this. This isn't rehabilitation or justice, only punishment.

[jotjotzzz]

You do the crime, you do the time! It's called punishment because it's a damn crime. A person who made the decision to use shoddy materials to build a building knowing it will collapse, and that building does collapse and killed thousands. So that person should be "rehabilitated"? Give me a break. A little common sense goes a long way.

[exclusiv]

Making fraudulent claims for your medical device may not be traditionally violent. But it is.

[polotics]

Punishment is an essential element of justice. How can there be justice without punishment for the crimes committed. Or do you propose the dead will have their life rehabilitated somehow?

[layer8]

It is deterrence.