Observation of Berlin from the weekend I spent there last month: literally the only place I was better off speaking German rather than English was a Turkish cafe. Everywhere else? Too many people understood English far better than they did German, especially anywhere to do with tech. Some of the tech people I talked to were running into being otherwise eligible for a permanent residence permit, but not being able to manage the moderate language requirements.
Contrast with Nuremberg and Erlangen, two relatively international cities in northern Bavaria: you can get around ok in English for anything tourist-related, but you really need to learn some German for day to day life. The B1 level that a permanent residence permit requires is about the right minimum level around here.
One thing that is specific to Berlin is that increasingly bars and cafes are staffed by foreigners. This is a quirk of the German employment system, a scarcity of staff, and the wide availability of expats in need of gigs. Instead of hiring permanent staff and paying them a salary, it's less risky to have temporary workers. However, you can't do that endlessly with the same people in the German system. You would have to employ them after a while. However, there's a never ending stream of students and other expats flowing through Berlin willing to do that kind of job. So, lots of bars and cafes employ those instead. Also, there are a fair amount of expats that stay in Berlin that open their own businesses.
Be stubborn and stick to your German even if it is bad, a bilingual conversation is just as fun. It took me as a German a long time to not automatically switch to English when I talk with someone who has little German knowledge.
It depends on where you are and what you're doing in the city. After a long enough time here, that lack of German starts to stunt or limit you to a degree. You'll end up in the same types of places with the same groups of people. Getting colleagues and friends to call places or answer letters or emails for you, or just stumbling along in broken German.
B1 is actually pretty strict, Spain only requires an A2 even for citizenship (after ten years of being a resident).
In a parallel universe, imagine needing to learn B1 Turkish as a German to become a turkish resident. Pretty daunting.
A permanent residency (PR) in Berlin does not require German language skills anymore. Maybe this is official or just established practice but regardless, there’a no reason not to have your PR if you qualify otherwise.
The problem is that in most places people want to display their ability to speak English to show their sophistication. Let’s hope that some day speaking another language besides English is a sign of status.
As a native Urberliner I am both flattered and confused by the fact so many young Americans choose to live in my home town. I always wondered what makes it so attractive to you. I mean, winters are miserable, the city is ugly compared to many others in Germany, the people are rather not friendly to each other, the German language is difficult to learn, our history is troublesome, German immigration laws still difficult to surmount and Berlin is becoming very expensive to live in these days compared to 20 years ago.
Edit: Perhaps I‘ve got the typical love/hate relationship with my home town and don’t see the forest for the trees we keep saying around here ;).
I moved eleven years ago because I loved the party scene. Took me less than a month to find a huge apartment for under seven hundred a month from a nice neighborhood.
Now I cannot move out anymore without doubling or tripling my rent. Also chose to study Rust instead of German, and been having so much work afterwards that I still haven't started my German studies. My husband speaks good German so that helps.
The weather is awful, our landlord only listens to us if we sue him, the internet seems to always be bad and expensive without hope for any better, the parties are way too crowded and dealing with local bureaucracy is not a great experience.
At least the rent is still cheap, if we don't move out. Lots of great art is happening every weekend. Nowadays you have some of the best restaurant scene going on in Berlin. The city is super relaxed about beer and weed, and the parks are great. It is easy to travel around the city with public transport, bike or quick rental cars. But now it is impossible to find apartments, all prices are going up and people are getting angrier every year.
My feelings about Berlin are super mixed. But, at least one thing makes me a Berliner: I love to complain about the city.
I'm British by birth, I chose Berlin after Brexit because:
1. Friends here
2. Alternative countries were Luxembourg/Switzerland (more expensive); Canada (worse weather); Ireland (fear I might get blamed personally for the stupid done by British politicians, and the UK Gov was being loudly stupid about Ireland at the time); USA (weird culture, guns); Australia/New Zealand (too far from the old country to visit regularly); France (I find the language harder than German); Belgium (saw a police officer with a long barrelled gun at the train station and noped out of even visiting it during an Interrail exploration trip); or somewhere where I hadn't even started learning the language.
That left Austria, which was an option, but Germany was bigger and I didn't want to risk having to move country for work before getting a permanent right to remain in the EU, which I think I need another 6-12 months for depending on what exactly counts.
Alternative cities within Germany: many pretty options, but the tech scene is mostly here, and also the friends.
As a new Berliner who immigrated here I can answer some of those:
- Berlin has a reputation for its artsy party scene and lax enforcement of drug laws. People come here in their 20s to let themselves loose.
- German universities are good quality and free for all (excluding the Semesterpauschale, but for my American or British friends this 300€ is basically nothing in comparison - especially when you count in the public transport ticket that comes with your student card).
- Immigration is hard, but you are entitled to permanent residency after you've contributed into the pension system for 5 years total within a continuous period of stay in Germany. People are willing to play the game with the Ausländerbehörde for some time if they know they will eventually become eligible for a permanent stay.
- Free, good quality healthcare. Agreed that Berlin is not the representative example in Germany, but for many people coming from places where healthcare is unaffordable or outright dangerous (I'd never want to go to the hospital in my hometown again), this is a huge change for the better.
- You can "get by" in Berlin with English only by now, although you'll be highly dependent on others. I know people who've been here for 5+ years and still struggle to order a beer. Not the best way of living, but definitely possible with so many other expats around.
- Prices/earnings ratio is still better than in many places in the West.
I chose the city myself because I already knew the language (mandatory second language after English at school in my home country), and I don't regret it. You can navigate around the coarse edges and live a good life in here.
Bowie. It all goes back to Bowie. He's really the one who made Berlin so attractive to young Westerners.
We think Berlin is a lovely city, with lots of tolerant people and a diverse set of cultures providing a rich and interesting outlook. Of course, the reality is, Berlin is as much of a shit-hole as any other major European city, but the fantasy of meeting an intelligent, inspired, enlightened 'newly free' young German thing in the streets of Berlin is just too enticing to a lot of us romantics.
I live in Vienna. I love to visit Berlin just so that I can come home to Vienna and appreciate what I've got, even if the effect wears off after a week of interacting with Vienners ..
That sounds like typical German pessimism. Rents are up but compared to some other major cities around the world? And why would the "troublesome" part of our long and rich history prevent people from moving here in 2023? Berlin is safe, cycleable, in the EU, the language not an order of magnitude harder than, say, French and people are speaking English anyway.
Berlin is still cheaper than other major European cities, is big enough to have lots of things to do, has a good nightlife, is very international (as in you can live there without knowing too much German) and, more recently, has developed a good tech scene.
On friendliness, I found Berlin more welcoming than Hamburg and Munich. I felt people were friendlier in Köln (apart from the police that wanted to fine me for jaywalking), but it’s much uglier than Berlin.
As a long time expat living in Berlin, it's actually a nice place to live. The city actually has some charm compared to other cities in Germany and it's never boring here. I've spent some time in Munich as well and that caused me to seriously wonder what else there was to do after a few weeks. Not an issue in Berlin. And I've been here for fourteen years.
German is completely optional here. I know that's not appreciated by the natives. But I don't actually deal with a lot of those. Almost everyone I know in Berlin is from outside Berlin. And that includes most Germans. A lot of those move to Berlin for many of the same reasons that foreigners do that. I do meet actual real Berliners once in a while and by and large they are actually quite friendly. But the fact is that they are a minority in this city.
I moved to Berlin about 10 years ago. In my opinion Berlin was attractive because:
- Friends and people from all over the world
- Culturally and historically interesting: clubs, events.
- Capital of the biggest economy in Europe
- Cheaper (not anymore). Also, clubs because of the particular history.
- Slight barrier to entry. A bit of German is a higher barrier to entry, compared to English speaking options.
Having said that, I find people friendlier in Köln, although this has improved in Berlin. Also the payment with card has improved in the last 10 years.
it's the capital, large, already has a big international presence which tends to in turn attract more migrants and it has a great nightlife. The clubbing, music and arts scene in Berlin is vastly better than any other city in Germany in my experience. After that maybe Munich and Cologne? But given the size of our country there's surprisingly not that many cities that are fun.
> The other day my friend S., an American Berliner, said that he had noticed his English-language social circle starting to use the word « spontaneously » wrong. When Germans say they’ll organise a social event spontan, they mean they’ll work out the details at short notice. To socialise spontaneously, in English, means something rather different. But S. and I and our Neukölln friends have started using it in the sense of spontan. « OK cool text me Sunday and we’ll choose a place spontaneously. » This error is becoming part of our little language, our ultra-local dialect, just among us.
On behalf of the entire Netherlands also using this wrong in the same way: what does the Anglosphere consider correct usage of spontaneously then?
Definition: a result of a sudden impulse and without premeditation
Spontaneously would be "Let's go do x right now at y place." not "Let's pencil this half-baked plan into our calendars and finalize some details at that time."
In English, we have the abbreviation TBD (to be determined) if you want to note that some details haven't yet been finalized.
To my ear, to do something “spontaneously” means to do something without having planned it. So to make plans with someone to do something “spontaneously” sounds oxymoronish.
Y‘all overthinking this. As I have written somewhere below:
Words usually have multiple meanings, common ones and less common ones. "False friend" words usually swapped their common and rare semantics when entering a different language. In this case, the common meaning for "spontaneously" is "without direction" but not "on short notice". But it's the other way around in German. There actually is the German term "spontane Ordnung" ("order from chaos") using the English connotation in this case.
Spontaneously in English usage is something done without pre-planning. Spur of the moment. As in "we spontaneously decided to drive to LA"
In this German context it's more like "we will figure it out". As in, we plan to meet up yes, but whatever we will do we'll figure it out at that time. As in "we'll meet at 3, hang and figure out what we'll do. Maybe we'll go somewhere"
Global English is both a blessing and a curse. Never before could so many people communicate across linguistic divides (even if imperfectly). But the price is that never before was the rich collective cultural heritage under such threat.
The two facets are deeply related. Like any lingua franca before, global English was invented to facilitate trade (economic exchange). The fact that it is English and not Basque or Suahili reflects the dominant economic power of the 20th century. But the peculiarity of the Anglo-saxon world that insists on financializing and commercializing everything (David Bowie securities anyone?) means that culture too became a tradeable cash crop. Pop culture became an exportable mass market product against which local traditions stood no chance.
Thankfully it seems that the relative shallowness of commercially distributed culture (required if it is to reach global markets) limits its scope. Once local culture stops being seeing as an anachronistic relic but rather a source of wealth people embrace it again.
So it may be possible to both have our cake and eat it. The story has not fully played out yet.
This is perhaps nitpicking but I wish non-native English speakers would not use the term “Anglo-Saxon” to describe anglophone or (better) English speaking countries. The term refers to the original north Germanic invaders of England and so has tribal (racial) connotations and is typically used in English to distinguish people on that basis. Many/most Americans (e.g. black or Native American) so not consider themselves “Anglo-Saxon” nor would most Irish people nor many non-white Australians, for example. Heck - lots of British passport holders would not identify as Anglo-Saxon. If you don’t identify as Anglo-Saxon in an English speaking country, it’s jarring to hear your native home country being referred to as “Anglo-Saxon”. Just use “English speaking” which has no racial overtones and is both easier to understand and more precise.
Borrowed words and phrases can lead to weird things that we don't even notice.
For example the author of the essay casually calls English the lingua franca without pausing to realize that he's using an Italian phrase for "French language", and means English by it!
This borrowing, adapting and linguistic evolution has been going on for a very long time.
We have a number of Indian-language radio stations in the UK, which are good to listen to because the music is often great. Part of the fun is spotting the odd anglicism creep in:
<something in Hindi><something in Hindi>"that's not cricket!"<something in Hindi><something in Hindi>
"All the lyrics of the stupidest possible songs" - I feel that one. When a store blares some incredibly vapid English pop lyrics I hardly even notice it, but when they do it in Norwegian, I flee the store to escape the vicarious embarrassment.
I grew up in a bilingual home. I sometimes refer to what I speak and write as Germish.
I routinely have to look up "Is that one word or two?" because German runs words together so much more often than English and I capitalize too many things because German capitalizes all nouns and English only capitalizes proper nouns.
A friend of mine once described my capitalization choices as "raising my voice," a place between "speaking normally" and the internet "yelling" of writing in all caps.
The part about feeling a certain tristesse that your native language is a shared commodity rather than a cosy secret was very resonant. And a native English speaker who tries to speak the local language in, I would say, most any sizable European city will typically find that their attempt is politely shut down by their interlocutor in favour of English, because they will speak it vastly better than you speak their language.
It's not just German. Language groups around the world are struggling to fit English vocabularly into their language. My favorite English borrowing into Polish is probably kolesław (pronounced something like COAL-eh-suave) for coleslaw, but there are so many that it's hard to choose. Poles in Chicago decline "Milwaukee" (the street) as if it were a Polish plural ("na Milwaukach"). I'm fairly OK in Polish but still find it impossible to pronounce "cheeseburger" the way they do in Poland.
good article, reminiscent of my own time in berlin never heard of berlinglisch, but lived through a lot of denglish i still find myself writing sentences like “that should do it, or?” and saying “alsoooo” and “na ja” way too much.
never lived in neukölln so i missed out on the more hipster bits, and actually had to learn proper german eventually
The great strength of English is its uncanny ability to create new words and vacuum up material from other languages... and make it sound good.
Other languages are left with the problem of Anglicisms where handy English words and phrases are imported but never sounds like natural parts of the language.
The author would be amused to learn that are dedicated dictionaries specific for
"fremdwörter": defining the word, indicating plura and informing gramatical gender so you can have the proper declensions and therefore correct gramatic for these borrowed words.
As an Italian living in Berlin, my favorite (which makes my Aussie partner roll her eyes) is saying something like “you are invited” when you pay for someone else’s coffee or meal. It’s a literal translation of “du bist eingeladen”.
My partner taught me “I shout you”, but I also have the feeling that’s pretty Aussie or Brit. Any non-native friend understands “I invite you”, but would probably never get “I shout you”.
(joke warning) The omnipresent English in Europe is the Mohammad English, a very simplified and useful version - spoken by most middle-eastern emigrant, and some Balkan residents. Next to it is the very distinct (by its accent) French-English.
One example I vividly remember was somewhere in very rural Germany in the early 2000s. A new burger chain called McDonalds recently opened and they had the most bizarre slogans and scripts written, in English, but in German phonetic transcription, like in the parking lot it said "Häppi Börzdäi" or something like that.
As an American living in Berlin since 2008, this weird hybrid language is now my brain's default mode, and I have to explicitly code switch to pure English or pure German whenever speaking to someone not bilingual in both.
My non-german-speaking partners now all have learned a few dozen german words and expressions as a result.
[+] [-] MandieD|2 years ago|reply
Contrast with Nuremberg and Erlangen, two relatively international cities in northern Bavaria: you can get around ok in English for anything tourist-related, but you really need to learn some German for day to day life. The B1 level that a permanent residence permit requires is about the right minimum level around here.
[+] [-] jillesvangurp|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TomK32|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jamil7|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ricardobayes|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] philippgerard|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] Silverback_VII|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zeta_|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] G3rn0ti|2 years ago|reply
Edit: Perhaps I‘ve got the typical love/hate relationship with my home town and don’t see the forest for the trees we keep saying around here ;).
[+] [-] pimeys|2 years ago|reply
Now I cannot move out anymore without doubling or tripling my rent. Also chose to study Rust instead of German, and been having so much work afterwards that I still haven't started my German studies. My husband speaks good German so that helps.
The weather is awful, our landlord only listens to us if we sue him, the internet seems to always be bad and expensive without hope for any better, the parties are way too crowded and dealing with local bureaucracy is not a great experience.
At least the rent is still cheap, if we don't move out. Lots of great art is happening every weekend. Nowadays you have some of the best restaurant scene going on in Berlin. The city is super relaxed about beer and weed, and the parks are great. It is easy to travel around the city with public transport, bike or quick rental cars. But now it is impossible to find apartments, all prices are going up and people are getting angrier every year.
My feelings about Berlin are super mixed. But, at least one thing makes me a Berliner: I love to complain about the city.
[+] [-] ben_w|2 years ago|reply
1. Friends here
2. Alternative countries were Luxembourg/Switzerland (more expensive); Canada (worse weather); Ireland (fear I might get blamed personally for the stupid done by British politicians, and the UK Gov was being loudly stupid about Ireland at the time); USA (weird culture, guns); Australia/New Zealand (too far from the old country to visit regularly); France (I find the language harder than German); Belgium (saw a police officer with a long barrelled gun at the train station and noped out of even visiting it during an Interrail exploration trip); or somewhere where I hadn't even started learning the language.
That left Austria, which was an option, but Germany was bigger and I didn't want to risk having to move country for work before getting a permanent right to remain in the EU, which I think I need another 6-12 months for depending on what exactly counts.
Alternative cities within Germany: many pretty options, but the tech scene is mostly here, and also the friends.
[+] [-] worklaptopacct|2 years ago|reply
- Berlin has a reputation for its artsy party scene and lax enforcement of drug laws. People come here in their 20s to let themselves loose.
- German universities are good quality and free for all (excluding the Semesterpauschale, but for my American or British friends this 300€ is basically nothing in comparison - especially when you count in the public transport ticket that comes with your student card).
- Immigration is hard, but you are entitled to permanent residency after you've contributed into the pension system for 5 years total within a continuous period of stay in Germany. People are willing to play the game with the Ausländerbehörde for some time if they know they will eventually become eligible for a permanent stay.
- Free, good quality healthcare. Agreed that Berlin is not the representative example in Germany, but for many people coming from places where healthcare is unaffordable or outright dangerous (I'd never want to go to the hospital in my hometown again), this is a huge change for the better.
- You can "get by" in Berlin with English only by now, although you'll be highly dependent on others. I know people who've been here for 5+ years and still struggle to order a beer. Not the best way of living, but definitely possible with so many other expats around.
- Prices/earnings ratio is still better than in many places in the West.
I chose the city myself because I already knew the language (mandatory second language after English at school in my home country), and I don't regret it. You can navigate around the coarse edges and live a good life in here.
[+] [-] boffinAudio|2 years ago|reply
We think Berlin is a lovely city, with lots of tolerant people and a diverse set of cultures providing a rich and interesting outlook. Of course, the reality is, Berlin is as much of a shit-hole as any other major European city, but the fantasy of meeting an intelligent, inspired, enlightened 'newly free' young German thing in the streets of Berlin is just too enticing to a lot of us romantics.
I live in Vienna. I love to visit Berlin just so that I can come home to Vienna and appreciate what I've got, even if the effect wears off after a week of interacting with Vienners ..
[+] [-] UweSchmidt|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mmarq|2 years ago|reply
On friendliness, I found Berlin more welcoming than Hamburg and Munich. I felt people were friendlier in Köln (apart from the police that wanted to fine me for jaywalking), but it’s much uglier than Berlin.
[+] [-] et-al|2 years ago|reply
- good location to visit other spots in Europe
- probably already have a friend of a friend living there
- the party scene
Very few Americans intend on living in Berlin permanently, though. It's an extended study abroad session for them.
[+] [-] jillesvangurp|2 years ago|reply
German is completely optional here. I know that's not appreciated by the natives. But I don't actually deal with a lot of those. Almost everyone I know in Berlin is from outside Berlin. And that includes most Germans. A lot of those move to Berlin for many of the same reasons that foreigners do that. I do meet actual real Berliners once in a while and by and large they are actually quite friendly. But the fact is that they are a minority in this city.
[+] [-] mejutoco|2 years ago|reply
- Friends and people from all over the world
- Culturally and historically interesting: clubs, events.
- Capital of the biggest economy in Europe
- Cheaper (not anymore). Also, clubs because of the particular history.
- Slight barrier to entry. A bit of German is a higher barrier to entry, compared to English speaking options.
Having said that, I find people friendlier in Köln, although this has improved in Berlin. Also the payment with card has improved in the last 10 years.
[+] [-] drBonkers|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tobiasbischoff|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Barrin92|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vanderZwan|2 years ago|reply
On behalf of the entire Netherlands also using this wrong in the same way: what does the Anglosphere consider correct usage of spontaneously then?
[+] [-] DoreenMichele|2 years ago|reply
Spontaneously would be "Let's go do x right now at y place." not "Let's pencil this half-baked plan into our calendars and finalize some details at that time."
In English, we have the abbreviation TBD (to be determined) if you want to note that some details haven't yet been finalized.
[+] [-] derriz|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tarkin2|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lasfter|2 years ago|reply
E.g., "We were in Vegas and saw an Elvis chapel, so we spontaneously decided to get married!"
They were in Vegas without any plans of marriage, saw a venue, and decided immediately to marry.
[+] [-] G3rn0ti|2 years ago|reply
Words usually have multiple meanings, common ones and less common ones. "False friend" words usually swapped their common and rare semantics when entering a different language. In this case, the common meaning for "spontaneously" is "without direction" but not "on short notice". But it's the other way around in German. There actually is the German term "spontane Ordnung" ("order from chaos") using the English connotation in this case.
[+] [-] ulfw|2 years ago|reply
In this German context it's more like "we will figure it out". As in, we plan to meet up yes, but whatever we will do we'll figure it out at that time. As in "we'll meet at 3, hang and figure out what we'll do. Maybe we'll go somewhere"
[+] [-] camillomiller|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dfawcus|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nologic01|2 years ago|reply
The two facets are deeply related. Like any lingua franca before, global English was invented to facilitate trade (economic exchange). The fact that it is English and not Basque or Suahili reflects the dominant economic power of the 20th century. But the peculiarity of the Anglo-saxon world that insists on financializing and commercializing everything (David Bowie securities anyone?) means that culture too became a tradeable cash crop. Pop culture became an exportable mass market product against which local traditions stood no chance.
Thankfully it seems that the relative shallowness of commercially distributed culture (required if it is to reach global markets) limits its scope. Once local culture stops being seeing as an anachronistic relic but rather a source of wealth people embrace it again.
So it may be possible to both have our cake and eat it. The story has not fully played out yet.
[+] [-] derriz|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] btilly|2 years ago|reply
For example the author of the essay casually calls English the lingua franca without pausing to realize that he's using an Italian phrase for "French language", and means English by it!
This borrowing, adapting and linguistic evolution has been going on for a very long time.
[+] [-] b800h|2 years ago|reply
<something in Hindi><something in Hindi>"that's not cricket!"<something in Hindi><something in Hindi>
[+] [-] vintermann|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Biologist123|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DoreenMichele|2 years ago|reply
I routinely have to look up "Is that one word or two?" because German runs words together so much more often than English and I capitalize too many things because German capitalizes all nouns and English only capitalizes proper nouns.
A friend of mine once described my capitalization choices as "raising my voice," a place between "speaking normally" and the internet "yelling" of writing in all caps.
[+] [-] tragomaskhalos|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ElevenLathe|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ivanche|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kanbara|2 years ago|reply
never lived in neukölln so i missed out on the more hipster bits, and actually had to learn proper german eventually
[+] [-] FredPret|2 years ago|reply
Other languages are left with the problem of Anglicisms where handy English words and phrases are imported but never sounds like natural parts of the language.
[+] [-] fmeyer|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] camillomiller|2 years ago|reply
As an Italian living in Berlin, my favorite (which makes my Aussie partner roll her eyes) is saying something like “you are invited” when you pay for someone else’s coffee or meal. It’s a literal translation of “du bist eingeladen”. My partner taught me “I shout you”, but I also have the feeling that’s pretty Aussie or Brit. Any non-native friend understands “I invite you”, but would probably never get “I shout you”.
[+] [-] larodi|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rzzzt|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ricardobayes|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sneak|2 years ago|reply
My non-german-speaking partners now all have learned a few dozen german words and expressions as a result.