A lot of people (me included) thought this series was dire for Ding after watching him get crushed a few days ago by his opponent Nepo where Ding visibly froze and was in a state of total mental disarray after he couldn't decide on his move, wasted a ton of time, and ended up making a bad move anyways.
Commenters said that this was Nepo's strength, even if he doesn't make the absolute greatest move he makes a good enough move relatively quickly compared to his competition and we saw the advantage of that play out.
But ironically that game being successful for Nepo's fast style might've cost him the championship in the end as he tried to replicate the time pressure on Ding every game after to pretty poor results. He might've done better if he didn't get such a dramatic victory that game.
The "Ding froze" assessment from game 7 was the fake-news media meme but wasn't the reality. He explained it after the fact. He knew what he was doing. He thought his position was lost, so he was calculating everything to look for a line to save a draw with perpetual checks / threefold repetition. He felt he had nothing to lose by expending all his time searching for that since he was going to lose anyway if he didn't find it. He was incorrect in evaluating his position as worse than it was (remember the players don't get the computer analysis numbers), but he wasn't incorrect in his time management stemming from that evaluation.
The same went for Nepo's supposed "tilt" in the last WCC match against Carlsen, that was media exaggeration. He lost one game with one mistake, so then had to push into risky positions after that in hopes of catching up, since he had nothing more to lose in match terms. The big discrepancy in score for that match wasn't domination, it was an artifact of the meta-factor of playing for high variance.
This is a good point. Ding's time management has actually been excellent in this match besides that one moment where he froze. But that was literally one move. In most of the games he's just close to serious time pressure, but never gets there. He's just very fastidious about actually spending all his time.
Ian definitely slowed down in the latter half of the match as well, but he still played too quickly in key positions.
Think of the chess players as facing a gigantic search problem. They don't have time to search everything, so they have to use intuition to decide what lines to calculate. Their intuition is very good but not perfect. So sometimes you get in a situation where you have computed the wrong lines and see no solution. The solution might be obvious on another day where you randomly don't cull the right lines, and very hard to find on a day when you are culling the good lines.
Ding when he froze was for whatever reason missing the good move, so felt he was lost, searching and searching for some solution. It seems crazy only because the engine is there telling us it is drawn. But the human is culling the lines that work for some misguided reason.
Congratulations to both players for providing us with so many decisive and interesting games! Particular congratulations to Ding!
I played in the US Chess Open in 1978, but I am not much of a player. I did write the shitty little Chess program that Apple distributed on the Apple II demo cassette tape.
Off topic, but I 100% support Magnus’s decision to do what he enjoys: playing in tournaments and not time spent preparing for world championship matches. Good for him understanding what is most important to him, and acting on it.
That decision is made a lot easier once you've been on top five times and no matter what happens in the championship you're not participating in, everyone knows you're still the GOAT.
"I played in the US Chess Open in 1978, but I am not much of a player. I did write the shitty little Chess program that Apple distributed on the Apple II demo cassette tape."
Sometimes...you meet the most interesting people on here!
I finished in-the-money in the Open in 1982, which hooked me a bit, and I also later played in the World Open and finished in-the-money in the New York open.
For NY, had to live in Manhattan for two weeks, play 6 days, one day off, then 6 more days, several hours each day. I wouldn't have been able to remotely afford it, but my cousin was out of town for two weeks, and let me stay at her place. Taking two weeks off for an open Chess tournament seems insane to today's player's brought up on blitz, rapid, bullet and hyper-bullet (which I confess I enjoy a lot myself).
It was a very exciting WCC, but I feel like something should be done about the post-match press conferences. Many of the questions asked in the most prestigious chess tournament are not even remotely related to the games that were played, and sometimes plainly disrespectful towards the players.
The first question right after a new World Champion has been crowned was about the weather.
It was also extremely odd to me that there was no Chinese press there. Ding's English is not excellent, and to not be able to catch his first moments in his native tongue seems to have been a major failing of the Chinese press.
Great match by Ding and Ian both, and I honestly think Ding deserves the win in the end.
I think Ian got a bit too results oriented and pragmatic towards the end of the match, playing too imprecisely and quickly in key positions and always a little too happy with a draw. Ding was just playing chess.
And as often happens in chess, this ended up being the decisive psychological factor. Ian, going for a repetition, And Ding says no, let's play. This seemed to shock Ian so much that he was unable to find the correct moves. Ding was ruthless and punished his mistakes, showcasing his superior calculation(at least in that moment) and concentration.
I wouldn't agree with the "deserves to win". If you look at the classical matches, probably Ian had the slight edge, and tbh, he could have wrapped up the entire thing in Game 13(I may not be remembering the exact game, but the one where he had a strong position but gave it away and lost, thus leading to a tie).
And, honestly, in rapid, they were really really even. Even one better move at the end might have tied it up.
I think the match showed that they were about equal, not that really anyone was better.
It should be noted that one of the reasons this WCC was exciting is because of Richard Rapport who helped Ding Liren with his preparation, he is well know for being creative with his openings, and his contributions were pretty obvious in games (we even saw a London System), specially that Ding is usually predictable.
I'm really glad it was decided in rapid if it couldn't be in classical. The first three rapid games were of incredibly high quality, just as good as the best games in Classical in terms of accuracy and much more exciting than you'd think just hearing they were draws. The last game had its ups and downs but seemed to be a clear draw until the very end. Under time-pressure both players made some mistakes but there is no other way for a winner to emerge really.
As a middling player a draw in Rapid is quite an achievement. Playing that accurately in such a short time control is really so impressive. Especially given the pressure they were exerting on each other during those first three games!
Thanks to the commentators to make the game accessible to us 1100 elo ><.
It's funny because at my level I thought it made 100% sense to decline draw and go Rg6. With two beautiful passed pawns and a bishop in the middle ding had a clear plan and very low risk (to me) to lose while Nepo had to do so many super accurate queen moves to defend... which seemed impossible (to me) in time pressure. It's basically (to me, again) the same problem than the super long game 6 in 2022 against carlsen.
Rg6 is an amazing decision (note that I didn't say it's the right one as clearly I wouldn't know). Think about it, after months of preparation and a couple weeks of playing long games, and getting so much pressure, he can take a draw with black and then play blitz. Nobody would have blame him for it.
But he realized that he has some chance for pressure, and that Ian has spent his extra time on the clock. So he puts his gloves on for the last fight. Whether or not it is the right strategy, both in this particular game and regarding the situation of the match, it shows incredible courage and fighting spirit.
Also earlier in the same game he canceled an attack realizing that he would be overextending and Ian has everything to defend. That is really really hard to do when you are attacking and had an advantage a couple moves ago, to just hold back like that.
It's been a brilliant tournament, absolutely fantastic to follow. Genuinely gripping, exciting stuff with incredible games and lines.
Carlsen did us all a favour by stepping back. I don't think the rest of the pack are too far behind these two, we should be seeing a really dynamic, entertaining fight for the top spot over the coming years.
The main commentator stream was (reasonably) blindsided by Rg6, with comedic timing.
Sachdev: "Rg6 is not a move that you'd consider here, right? It's the only move that I feel with black keeps the game going, but it looks more like a losing move than a winning attempt."
Caruana: "If Rg6 is not better for white [Nepomniachtchi], I'd be shocked"
Super stoked to see what the impact of this would be on the Chinese chess ecosystem and consequently on the chess world. Maybe China will host more chess events and in return we might see more prodigies coming out of China.
Does anyone have tips on how to watch chess? I got pretty into chess during lockdown. I read several books on the subject, was playing a few hours each day. I had friends who got into it as well, and they would watch the tournaments and high profile matches, but I couldn't enjoy them. I didn't feel like I understood the game enough, and the commentary sometimes went over my head/went by too quickly. Anyone been in the same situation?
The thing about watching chess that’s different from other games, is that it’s not obvious to inexperienced players when important things happen and why.
The only way is to increase your skill level. I played for years before I could appreciate a live game played at the IM or GM level.
At tournaments there’s typically a watch room with a board and a proctor that tries different lines and variations on the position. If you didn’t understand something then playing out the line would help understand the motivation.
Not sure if there’s a good proxy for that now, since honestly I haven’t played much since the advent of chess AI started offering far better analysis than a kibbitz room. But maybe there’s some software that can help with the explanation now.
But practicing is the only way to understand it. So if youre interested, keep at it!
Alright since everybody gives his favorite streamer / youtuber, I'll share mine : GM Ben Finegold. If you can support the dad jokes, he doesn't bore you with theory and often goes quickly to parts of the game where there is something to learn, whether you are casual or club-level. He has decades of teaching and coaching and has good pedagogy as a result.
Particularly the candidates games (qualifier of this wcc match) are 10-20min long. He also uploads entire courses on his channel that he gives on stream or that he gave live in his current or previous club.
I really liked Hikaru's recaps of the games [1] this tournament, prefer those to watching live because it feels for me like to actually enjoy live classical chess you need to pay full attention and the games are way too long for that, if I only pay a tiny bit attention I don't really get much out of it.
I really enjoyed Giri and Caruana's commentary. I can't really understand chess at the WC level but listening to them explain it along side IMs shows that even IMs are in similar a position. Sure they understand more than I do but they miss most of the deeper or sutbler ideas.
It was amazing to see Ding grow in confidence with each match. Kinda reminded me of Vegeta. I hope Ding will continue to grow and start dominating tournaments just like the previous champion, Magnus.
I didn't expect Ding winning Nepo in the tiebreaks after watching him getting crushed by the pressure and time in previous games. Well played! The last game has been incredible. Watching the world cup being decided in less than 10 minutes was something I didn't expect.
This match was super exciting to follow, I would not have predicted this outcome even a few games ago. It really felt like in both the candidates and now here Ding just grinded things out, so props to his mental endurance.
I hope they find better journalists to ask questions next around, they rightly got a lot of flack in this one.
Does the world championship use any detectors to check if participants arent cheating? Via some communication device, sounds, lights etc. that would tell moves taken from a computer or a set of helpers?
Alternatively someone could put some device inside their body. Are the participants scanned somehow?
I don't think Ding is quite at Carlsen's level, but maybe being World Champion will inspire him to get even better. I wish someone would sponsor an unofficial match between Ding and Carlsen. Only FIDE can organize an official match for the title.
Congrats to Ding but brutal for Nepo. Had a winning position in game 12, and rushed that move in game 14 when Rc3? would have been winning. Winning the candidates tournament twice is such a huge feat, not sure if he can win again to challenge.
Nepo has brought it on himself, losing that dramatic 12th game while leading in the score with a an unbelievable blunder. Hope he comes back for the next title challenge.
Not just a blunder, but a blunder made too quickly when he had plenty of time. If Nepo won a third straight candidates (he's automatically qualified) that would be an extremely impressive achievement that would be a first in world history I believe.
It's absurd that the classical world chess champion is decided by rapid games.
This keeps happening: 2012, 2016, 2018, 2023.
For over a decade most of the classical world chess champions were decided by their ability to play rapid.
It's time to reform FIDE. The world chess championship is languishing, barely getting any news attention or coverage. Just kill this failed format and play rapid. The games are much more engaging for viewers. We could maybe actually get people to watch chess!
KaoruAoiShiho|2 years ago
Commenters said that this was Nepo's strength, even if he doesn't make the absolute greatest move he makes a good enough move relatively quickly compared to his competition and we saw the advantage of that play out.
But ironically that game being successful for Nepo's fast style might've cost him the championship in the end as he tried to replicate the time pressure on Ding every game after to pretty poor results. He might've done better if he didn't get such a dramatic victory that game.
vikingerik|2 years ago
The same went for Nepo's supposed "tilt" in the last WCC match against Carlsen, that was media exaggeration. He lost one game with one mistake, so then had to push into risky positions after that in hopes of catching up, since he had nothing more to lose in match terms. The big discrepancy in score for that match wasn't domination, it was an artifact of the meta-factor of playing for high variance.
mtlmtlmtlmtl|2 years ago
Ian definitely slowed down in the latter half of the match as well, but he still played too quickly in key positions.
jackmott42|2 years ago
Ding when he froze was for whatever reason missing the good move, so felt he was lost, searching and searching for some solution. It seems crazy only because the engine is there telling us it is drawn. But the human is culling the lines that work for some misguided reason.
unknown|2 years ago
[deleted]
mark_l_watson|2 years ago
I played in the US Chess Open in 1978, but I am not much of a player. I did write the shitty little Chess program that Apple distributed on the Apple II demo cassette tape.
Off topic, but I 100% support Magnus’s decision to do what he enjoys: playing in tournaments and not time spent preparing for world championship matches. Good for him understanding what is most important to him, and acting on it.
hacym|2 years ago
viraj_shah|2 years ago
Sometimes...you meet the most interesting people on here!
QuantumGood|2 years ago
For NY, had to live in Manhattan for two weeks, play 6 days, one day off, then 6 more days, several hours each day. I wouldn't have been able to remotely afford it, but my cousin was out of town for two weeks, and let me stay at her place. Taking two weeks off for an open Chess tournament seems insane to today's player's brought up on blitz, rapid, bullet and hyper-bullet (which I confess I enjoy a lot myself).
agubelu|2 years ago
The first question right after a new World Champion has been crowned was about the weather.
somenameforme|2 years ago
unknown|2 years ago
[deleted]
WastingMyTime89|2 years ago
mtlmtlmtlmtl|2 years ago
I think Ian got a bit too results oriented and pragmatic towards the end of the match, playing too imprecisely and quickly in key positions and always a little too happy with a draw. Ding was just playing chess.
And as often happens in chess, this ended up being the decisive psychological factor. Ian, going for a repetition, And Ding says no, let's play. This seemed to shock Ian so much that he was unable to find the correct moves. Ding was ruthless and punished his mistakes, showcasing his superior calculation(at least in that moment) and concentration.
Upvoter33|2 years ago
And, honestly, in rapid, they were really really even. Even one better move at the end might have tied it up.
I think the match showed that they were about equal, not that really anyone was better.
ycombinete|2 years ago
I think as well that Black had more viable moves as the position continued to develop; Ian on the other hand had to be very accurate.
Brilliant from ding really. There’s a reason he’s about 100 Elo points stronger than Ian in Rapid.
unknown|2 years ago
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blackpill0w|2 years ago
Bostonian|2 years ago
jeremyjh|2 years ago
ycombinete|2 years ago
perihelions|2 years ago
https://youtu.be/cSxNZix1Xwc?t=12404 (3:26:44 – 4:38:10)
https://lichess.org/broadcast/fide-world-chess-championship-... (just the moves)
davidguetta|2 years ago
It's funny because at my level I thought it made 100% sense to decline draw and go Rg6. With two beautiful passed pawns and a bishop in the middle ding had a clear plan and very low risk (to me) to lose while Nepo had to do so many super accurate queen moves to defend... which seemed impossible (to me) in time pressure. It's basically (to me, again) the same problem than the super long game 6 in 2022 against carlsen.
bionsystem|2 years ago
But he realized that he has some chance for pressure, and that Ian has spent his extra time on the clock. So he puts his gloves on for the last fight. Whether or not it is the right strategy, both in this particular game and regarding the situation of the match, it shows incredible courage and fighting spirit.
Also earlier in the same game he canceled an attack realizing that he would be overextending and Ian has everything to defend. That is really really hard to do when you are attacking and had an advantage a couple moves ago, to just hold back like that.
ninepoints|2 years ago
specproc|2 years ago
Carlsen did us all a favour by stepping back. I don't think the rest of the pack are too far behind these two, we should be seeing a really dynamic, entertaining fight for the top spot over the coming years.
ttyyzz|2 years ago
mellosouls|2 years ago
https://youtube.com/shorts/mNiPUPRt89Q
blackpill0w|2 years ago
Edit: https://nitter.net/MagnusCarlsen/status/1652663581542891531#...
zpeti|2 years ago
Mistletoe|2 years ago
ricochet11|2 years ago
perihelions|2 years ago
Sachdev: "Rg6 is not a move that you'd consider here, right? It's the only move that I feel with black keeps the game going, but it looks more like a losing move than a winning attempt."
Caruana: "If Rg6 is not better for white [Nepomniachtchi], I'd be shocked"
Ding: [plays Rg6]
https://youtu.be/cSxNZix1Xwc?t=16087
SpacePortKnight|2 years ago
lumb63|2 years ago
binarymax|2 years ago
The only way is to increase your skill level. I played for years before I could appreciate a live game played at the IM or GM level.
At tournaments there’s typically a watch room with a board and a proctor that tries different lines and variations on the position. If you didn’t understand something then playing out the line would help understand the motivation.
Not sure if there’s a good proxy for that now, since honestly I haven’t played much since the advent of chess AI started offering far better analysis than a kibbitz room. But maybe there’s some software that can help with the explanation now.
But practicing is the only way to understand it. So if youre interested, keep at it!
bionsystem|2 years ago
Particularly the candidates games (qualifier of this wcc match) are 10-20min long. He also uploads entire courses on his channel that he gives on stream or that he gave live in his current or previous club.
polytely|2 years ago
1: https://youtu.be/lNzNgFy_P1g
treme|2 years ago
https://youtube.com/@ChessNetwork
squirrel|2 years ago
fahadkhan|2 years ago
xtreme|2 years ago
saganus|2 years ago
SpacePortKnight|2 years ago
alexmolas|2 years ago
trollied|2 years ago
CSMastermind|2 years ago
I hope they find better journalists to ask questions next around, they rightly got a lot of flack in this one.
rvba|2 years ago
Alternatively someone could put some device inside their body. Are the participants scanned somehow?
notreallyauser|2 years ago
The playing hall is, I think, essentially closed after the start of the match.
Bostonian|2 years ago
srge|2 years ago
Edit: context
univalent|2 years ago
unknown|2 years ago
[deleted]
Andrew_nenakhov|2 years ago
jeremyjh|2 years ago
bananamerica|2 years ago
ronnykylin|2 years ago
umanwizard|2 years ago
jpgvm|2 years ago
tinza123|2 years ago
ourmandave|2 years ago
sourcecodeplz|2 years ago
roflyear|2 years ago
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new2yc|2 years ago
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dang|2 years ago
If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
WhereIsTheTruth|2 years ago
light_hue_1|2 years ago
This keeps happening: 2012, 2016, 2018, 2023.
For over a decade most of the classical world chess champions were decided by their ability to play rapid.
It's time to reform FIDE. The world chess championship is languishing, barely getting any news attention or coverage. Just kill this failed format and play rapid. The games are much more engaging for viewers. We could maybe actually get people to watch chess!