I am currently lying in hospital after a so far 7 night stay. I am post chemo for Hairy Cell Leukaemia treatment that commenced 17 days ago. I am doing well enough but it's a struggle. ( I previously was successfully treated for the same chronic condition 9 years ago). My normal weight is around 80kg (I'm a 59yo male). I think I got down to 79kg prior to treatment this time - we actively sought exercise in the prior weeks through bushwalking, walking my dog and just general DIY stuff at home. I certainly this chemo campaign a lot fitter than the first time.
Post the first 5 days of chemo this time I dropped a kilo - it's hard to maintain appetite. Managing the fever that got me hospital admission meant that I have to take in a lot of fluid via IV. I reached a quite bloated 83.5kg only 2 days ago. I then shed 1.7kg in 1 day (no vomiting involved) - I'm sure this is pretty hard to achieve through normal gym work. My goal yesterday for today's weigh-in is 81kg. Though my nurse just told me she administered 500ml (so 0.5kg overnight). I'm guessing being down to 81.4kg is more realistic now. I couldn't exercise much yesterday as I was also taking onboard a weekly chemo infusion. Hopefully I'll be able to do some laps of the hospital ward balcony with my trolley as I did two days ago. I definitely exercise in hospital (walking) as much as my capacity allows.
A lot of the daily fluctuations in weight, even in just everyday life for people not in hospitals, involves changes in water weight rather than actual changes in the tissue mass.
For example, I regularly fluctuate +/- 3lbs or so around my true weight over the course of a day.
Looking at daily values can give a distorted picture, but if you use those daily weighings to average into weekly numbers, you can track changes.
For anyone interested further in this topic and generally the four horsemen(t2 diabetes, heart disease, cancer, and Alzheimer's disease), the book Outlive by Peter Attia is a very good general overview of factors that affect each, how medicine will need to evolve to a more preventative stance to move the needle on these diseases, what biomarkers are being discovered for these diseases.
His general stance is that by the time someone is diagnosed with any of these, it is far too late to have sustainable, effective treatment for many.
Its not exactly a short read, but is very eye opening.
When I was undergoing chemotherapy to treat Hodgkin's lymphoma, I tried to keep up some exercise but it was just too difficult. I ended up needing to take a drug to boost my white blood cell production so that treatment could continue. White blood cells are produced in your bones and this drug made it feel like every bone in your body was broken. It was awful.
Had I known this at the time, I probably would've forced myself to ride my indoor stationary bike every day if it would've helped avoid that immune booster drug.
I take the same injections, but further take Claritin as recommended and I’ve not experienced any bone pain. I’m also younger so that may play a factor, idk.
I workout before & after chemo days (later days I’m mostly just walking to get 10k steps).
Interesting. I'm about to start chemotherapy in a month or so, and I've been told that I'm supposed to get it injected while pedalling on an exercise bike.
Could it be for the same reason as mentioned in the article: better distribution of the cancer-fighting thing to where the cancer is?
My cancer centre only delivers chemo while ina comfy recliner. They encourage gentle exercise each day. For me this is walking with my dog and wife, and maybe a little safe DIY. I have low platelets and WCC at the moment so can't afford to do anything to rigourous.
Interesting exception is that there have been a number of anecdotal reports of aerobic exercise during Covid recovery being a major contributor to chances of getting long Covid.
i've always opposed the "you're sick therefore you should rest" advice, your lymph nodes are mechanical pumps, maybe you shouldn't go run 10 miles or do heavy lifting but definitely walk around or ride a bike if you feel up to it
It would be nice if we could find what triggers the body's improved condition when doing exercise, and trigger it maximally without having to do hours of repetitive nonsense.
It's fine if you like to do it, but a lot of us obviously don't. I wonder how the progress is going in this sphere.
I understand where you're coming from. Recently I read someone saying that "it's just like brushing your teeth, it's what your body requires in order to keep functioning properly".
That rang a bell with me. After all, I suppose pretty much everyone on HN brushes their teeth at least twice a day. That's also something that you need to build into your routine, somehow.
The same goes for exercise. If you build up routines that involve exercise, then it should become easier over time as habits are formed.
Something that doesn't help in that regard is cities where car use is almost unavoidable for basic stuff. Ideally, you'd live somewhere where schools and shops are near the places where people live, and the streets are designed so it's safe to walk or cycle. Then you could get some exercise simply by dropping off the children at school or doing some grocery shopping. Street design also isn't some natural phenomenon but something that city councils can make conscious decisions on, so none of it is a given.
But exercise yields more benefit than just cancer prevention. Don't you want to maintain strength and mobility as you age? Sleep better? Build mental and physical resilience?
I'll wager that we won't see a substitution for exercise and its benefits. Ever. It's just part of human life, and embracing it is by far the healthiest mindset.
I agree, additionally from the POV that sensory attention is de facto focus-stealing wrt other functionalities. General or anecdotal benefits aside, it typically taxes other systems of attention very heavily.
It's also shortsighted to nail ourselves to the cross of "yep, always gonna be exercise, that's just what it takes" when that potentially isn't necessary, and even worse, may prevent huge steps forward in use of human potential.
Add to this the many cases in which exercise is not feasible or safe...
(GPT mentions the work of Dr. Mark Tarnopolsky but I'm not familiar)
You're not going to find a magic pill that allows you to get away with being lazy. Whether you like to exercise or not is irrelevant. Embrace the suck.
As a chronic leukaemia patient (twice chemo campaign treated - currently in middle of one) I'd like to see this study done on my group. I have certainly tried to be fitter in advance of current treatment that started 17 days ago.
Tl;dr from the article, they used flow cytometry to quantify different cell populations in the blood, and noted that the proportion of CD8+ T cells (cytotoxic, the kind of immune cells that recognize and kill cancer cells, among other things) increases after exercise and returns to baseline 30 min later.
Claiming that this supports the idea that cancer patients could benefit* from exercise is a pretty big overstep of scientific inference.
There's simply not enough here to say if it's just an interesting artefact of exercise or an actual helpful response. It may be a useful starting point for further studies, but the comment section is frightening in how quickly people are jumping on this to confirm their biases on health and disease.
If we were to extrapolate from this logic, we would wrongly conclude that people with autoimmune diseases should never exercise.
If they return to baseline in 30 minutes, was there even an increase to begin with? What is the mean lifetime of those cytotoxic cells, and would one expect such a decay in so short a time?
I understand that it is a very dynamic system but 30 minutes seems very short to me. So is the return a die-off or where do they go?
Exercise (specifically, aerobic type) is the main thing you need. A good exercise regime gives you a lot of leeway in the diet aspect especially if you don't overeat (since your caloric burn will be high enough on the regular to not have to deal with issues like too much carbs). It also helps you sleep as you get tired and can fall asleep easier, and reduces stress levels, which is very important in regards to longevity.
There also have been studies that link brain function deterioration with lack of oxygen, and people with higher VO2max values are at a lower risk of cognitive decline.
Something as simple as cycling to the office instead of taking the car can have extremely positive effects.
I was walking 10+ miles every day when I was diagnosed with Stage 4 Lung Cancer, which means it was growing pretty much the entire time I was exercising. It’s not just Diet, exercise and sleep (and proper eating). Some of it is just plain luck.
And you don't need a gym membership or expensive equipment or any training for exercise. Even a tiny amount can make a huge difference.
If you're currently doing no exercise, try to walk five minutes at lunch time each day. Just five minutes. And when that's trivial to do, make it 10 minutes. Try to keep increasing this over the year. No rush. Take your time. But try to make it a habit. Even if some days it's back down to just 5 minutes.
If you're walking even just 15 minutes a day when you weren't before, you will be so much better off in ways that will be apparent. You might find that you feel happier, more alert, in a better mood overall. You might sleep a bit better. etc.
I'm not saying that a 15 min walk is a panacea that will cure all ills, but it's a multivitamin that works.
It's because western culture jumped the shark long ago. Half of every longevity tips is basically "no modern life". Eat fresh, few, move a lot, sleep a lot, talk a lot.
[+] [-] martyvis|2 years ago|reply
Post the first 5 days of chemo this time I dropped a kilo - it's hard to maintain appetite. Managing the fever that got me hospital admission meant that I have to take in a lot of fluid via IV. I reached a quite bloated 83.5kg only 2 days ago. I then shed 1.7kg in 1 day (no vomiting involved) - I'm sure this is pretty hard to achieve through normal gym work. My goal yesterday for today's weigh-in is 81kg. Though my nurse just told me she administered 500ml (so 0.5kg overnight). I'm guessing being down to 81.4kg is more realistic now. I couldn't exercise much yesterday as I was also taking onboard a weekly chemo infusion. Hopefully I'll be able to do some laps of the hospital ward balcony with my trolley as I did two days ago. I definitely exercise in hospital (walking) as much as my capacity allows.
[+] [-] sn9|2 years ago|reply
For example, I regularly fluctuate +/- 3lbs or so around my true weight over the course of a day.
Looking at daily values can give a distorted picture, but if you use those daily weighings to average into weekly numbers, you can track changes.
[+] [-] toolz|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Fnoord|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] paxcoder|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] mym1990|2 years ago|reply
His general stance is that by the time someone is diagnosed with any of these, it is far too late to have sustainable, effective treatment for many.
Its not exactly a short read, but is very eye opening.
[+] [-] DantesKite|2 years ago|reply
Metabolic processes and immune pathways are closely interlinked together (such as through the mTOR pathway).
Activate mTOR and you get the signal for T cells to proliferate as well as muscle growth, especially in the context of hypertrophy.
[+] [-] bakemawaytoys|2 years ago|reply
Had I known this at the time, I probably would've forced myself to ride my indoor stationary bike every day if it would've helped avoid that immune booster drug.
[+] [-] ramoz|2 years ago|reply
I workout before & after chemo days (later days I’m mostly just walking to get 10k steps).
Off weeks I’m cycling and lifting.
[+] [-] martyvis|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Findecanor|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] martyvis|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _xerces_|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JoshTko|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stainablesteel|2 years ago|reply
i've always opposed the "you're sick therefore you should rest" advice, your lymph nodes are mechanical pumps, maybe you shouldn't go run 10 miles or do heavy lifting but definitely walk around or ride a bike if you feel up to it
[+] [-] birdyrooster|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pazimzadeh|2 years ago|reply
Could the transient boost result from a boost in Tregs which actually chase inflammation that is caused by exercise?
[+] [-] make3|2 years ago|reply
It's fine if you like to do it, but a lot of us obviously don't. I wonder how the progress is going in this sphere.
[+] [-] Freeaqingme|2 years ago|reply
That rang a bell with me. After all, I suppose pretty much everyone on HN brushes their teeth at least twice a day. That's also something that you need to build into your routine, somehow.
The same goes for exercise. If you build up routines that involve exercise, then it should become easier over time as habits are formed.
Something that doesn't help in that regard is cities where car use is almost unavoidable for basic stuff. Ideally, you'd live somewhere where schools and shops are near the places where people live, and the streets are designed so it's safe to walk or cycle. Then you could get some exercise simply by dropping off the children at school or doing some grocery shopping. Street design also isn't some natural phenomenon but something that city councils can make conscious decisions on, so none of it is a given.
[+] [-] algoatecorn|2 years ago|reply
I'll wager that we won't see a substitution for exercise and its benefits. Ever. It's just part of human life, and embracing it is by far the healthiest mindset.
[+] [-] themodelplumber|2 years ago|reply
It's also shortsighted to nail ourselves to the cross of "yep, always gonna be exercise, that's just what it takes" when that potentially isn't necessary, and even worse, may prevent huge steps forward in use of human potential.
Add to this the many cases in which exercise is not feasible or safe...
(GPT mentions the work of Dr. Mark Tarnopolsky but I'm not familiar)
[+] [-] nradov|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] its_ethan|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] martyvis|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] biotechbio|2 years ago|reply
Tl;dr from the article, they used flow cytometry to quantify different cell populations in the blood, and noted that the proportion of CD8+ T cells (cytotoxic, the kind of immune cells that recognize and kill cancer cells, among other things) increases after exercise and returns to baseline 30 min later.
Claiming that this supports the idea that cancer patients could benefit* from exercise is a pretty big overstep of scientific inference.
* = in the immune response to their cancer
[+] [-] gavro|2 years ago|reply
There's simply not enough here to say if it's just an interesting artefact of exercise or an actual helpful response. It may be a useful starting point for further studies, but the comment section is frightening in how quickly people are jumping on this to confirm their biases on health and disease.
If we were to extrapolate from this logic, we would wrongly conclude that people with autoimmune diseases should never exercise.
[+] [-] Aune|2 years ago|reply
I understand that it is a very dynamic system but 30 minutes seems very short to me. So is the return a die-off or where do they go?
[+] [-] lockhouse|2 years ago|reply
The fact that we have so many health issues in western society are because its so easy to neglect these things.
[+] [-] ActorNightly|2 years ago|reply
Exercise (specifically, aerobic type) is the main thing you need. A good exercise regime gives you a lot of leeway in the diet aspect especially if you don't overeat (since your caloric burn will be high enough on the regular to not have to deal with issues like too much carbs). It also helps you sleep as you get tired and can fall asleep easier, and reduces stress levels, which is very important in regards to longevity.
There also have been studies that link brain function deterioration with lack of oxygen, and people with higher VO2max values are at a lower risk of cognitive decline.
Something as simple as cycling to the office instead of taking the car can have extremely positive effects.
[+] [-] borbulon|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Waterluvian|2 years ago|reply
If you're currently doing no exercise, try to walk five minutes at lunch time each day. Just five minutes. And when that's trivial to do, make it 10 minutes. Try to keep increasing this over the year. No rush. Take your time. But try to make it a habit. Even if some days it's back down to just 5 minutes.
If you're walking even just 15 minutes a day when you weren't before, you will be so much better off in ways that will be apparent. You might find that you feel happier, more alert, in a better mood overall. You might sleep a bit better. etc.
I'm not saying that a 15 min walk is a panacea that will cure all ills, but it's a multivitamin that works.
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] pengaru|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] agumonkey|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] markus_zhang|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 10xDev|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] swagasaurus-rex|2 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Fox was in better shape than most people despite having lost a leg to cancer. He died age 22.
[+] [-] rixary|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] iskander|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rukuu001|2 years ago|reply