[agonmon]

1. The people that don't want kids, cannot accurately model what it is like having kids. Your brain and hormonal output changes after a birth.

2. Children aren't that expensive unless the parents are playing status games (e.g. acting rich), and statistically it's poorer people that end up having more kids.

On the topic of sacrifice: One of my kids is just starting to stand up, and is using my shirt to pull herself up while squealing in triumph and delight. It's hard to express the fulfillment and existential meaning provided from children.

If I was told I would have to give them all up, it would be a soul-crushing sacrifice. Irrecoverable.

[paulryanrogers]

You can model the experience before having kids. Babysit a few different ages. Hormones don't always (ever?) change enough to overcome the predictable and significant costs. Likely more than 250k per child to get them to adulthood, and unlikely to stop there.

It also matter with whom and how you parent. Are sleep training, daycare, diapers, Tylenol, and bottle feeding the devil? Must you potty train from birth, diaper free? Naturopath parenting or bust?

Prepare yourself for sleep deprivation, higher risk of depression, many trips to the ER, and the smell of shit and piss. If your doctor or therapist insists you'll need medication and/or change your parenting style, then how many second opinions will you seek out before trying something else?

There is a balance of course, no one should neglect kids. Yet finding that, especially with an opinionated partner and the parent industrial complex, may be a long journey.

[agonmon]

In case anyone is using this to decide on having kids:

1. Babysitting is categorically different from taking care of your own kids. Ask any mother that babysat previously.

2. It doesn't take 250k to raise your child. That is referring to college costs, and between Junior College, summer internships, and some loans I paid off with my first job, it didn't cost my parents anything to put me through college. Your children should have agency.

3. Your parenting decisions don't matter as much as who you chose to make the children with. Don't waste time optimizing things that have little impact.

4. Sleep deprivation has not been an issue for us. People who have this issue probably are trying too hard to sleep train the baby.

5. I was depressed before having kids. Now I'm not. Take that with a grain of salt, but my hypothesis is that children provide existential meaning that keeps me from my previous depression.

6. I've gotten my kids' poop in my mouth. That would have horrified me before. Now it doesn't even register. None of the their smells illicit negative feelings.

7. Both parents should have strong opinions loosely held, since personalities of children differ even in the same family, you will have to collaboratively figure it out.

8. The parenting industrial complex is probably part of the reason birth rates are so low, and should be avoided in favor of more traditional parenting styles.

[nunez]

> You can model the experience before having kids. Babysit a few different ages. Hormones don't always (ever?) change enough to overcome the predictable and significant costs. Likely more than 250k per child to get them to adulthood, and unlikely to stop there.

Agreed. I knew I didn't want kids because I knew many (MANY) parents with them and knew for sure I did not want that life, even the good parts.

[VirusNewbie]

>Babysit a few different ages.

That's such a weird thing to say. If I said "you can model what its like to be in a happy marriage. Hang out with some randos wife for a bit" you'd think that is crazy.

Plenty of kids are little shits. I really really like my kid (and some others). Just like I wouldn't marry most people I meet...