Evidence that the Neanderthals were the first seafarers?

[bigtones]

The referenced paper on this was published more than a decade ago (2012): https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03054...

[AlotOfReading]

Which is weird, because the same authors published a more notable paper on exactly this subject very recently in Quaternary [0]. I don't think the argument is unreasonable, but the author of this article is terribly misinformed about many things. For example, the cyclades would have been visible from the mainland, as they still are today! [1] is the view from the western mainland, [2] is the view from the eastern side, today the island of Ikaria. Notice that Crete is also visible from both the Cyclades and the mainland under ideal conditions.

[0] https://doi.org/10.1016/j.quaint.2022.09.001

[1] https://www.peakfinder.org/?lat=37.98035&lng=24.52317&ele=25...

[2] https://www.peakfinder.org/?lat=37.53781&lng=26.01118&ele=87...

[robertlagrant]

It's an interesting theory, but as often is the case, the title is far more definite than the content.

[rightbyte]

Ye no proofs at all. The feasibility depends a lot on what they mean with "sailing". I guess their use includes "rowing" and "drifting".

[rightbyte]

Also seems possible that the tools might have been moved, at a later date? I imagine a stone age person digging through some Neanderthal settlement remains, would loot any tools.

[eastof]

Except those "stone age" people came around 50,000 years later. Not only is it unlikely they would find any evidence of the Neanderthals, but they would already have more sophisticated tools by then, don't think those (even in their time) by then ancient tools would be worth looting.

[Maursault]

> Long before modern humans existed, 100,000 years ago

100,000ya ago is not "long before modern humans existed." Modern humans are Homo sapiens, and the oldest known Homo sapiens remains (to date, that we know of) are dated to 300,000 years ago, which is now apparently 200,000 years before "long before" Homo sapiens existed. I guess the good news is we invent the time machine before too long.

[bee_rider]

I remember when I was a kid, textbooks would draw a distinction between “homo sapiens” and “homo sapiens sapiens.” But it is odd, when I search “homo sapiens sapiens,” I only see links to like, homework helper/yahoo question sites referencing it. Wikipedia and the Smithsonian seem to have dropped the second sapiens.

Is this an update to how this stuff is understood? I vaguely think the extra sapiens was added on to draw a distinction between “behaviorally modern” humans or something like that. But that always seemed more like a cultural thing anyway.

[jasonwatkinspdx]

There's a distinction between biologically modern and behaviorally modern humans. Biologically modern humans have been dated to at least as early as 300k years ago. However behavioral modernity, is more recent. There's debate about how exactly to define things and draw a line, but it's generally around 70k years ago.

The article isn't particularly well written but that's probably what they're referring to.

[erisinger]

Came here to see if anyone else had a problem with that timeline.

[blastro]

Anyone here ever read "Critical Path" by Buckminster Fuller? In it, BF winds a compelling narrative of the speculative pre-history of humanity, and touches on the early seafarers and how their tools and science have affected civilization from that point on.

[dbcooper]

Okay, this really doesn't look like a sober scientific publication.

Source: Another scam blog. LOL.

[karaterobot]

> Unfortunately, archaeologists are unable to provide additional evidence because any boats used by Neanderthals would have been made of wood, which would have long since decomposed to nothing.

Why make the leap to assume they invented sails, given the lack of physical evidence? I mean, it seems reasonable to think they could have rowed or even floated 40km long before they developed sails, and that they would develop those techniques on the way to doing that.

[shkkmo]

You and others seem to be hung up on the fact that the verb "sail" can mean any travel on water by ship, regardless of how that ship is propelled.

[D13Fd]

Did they take sea levels into account? It may not be realistically swimmable now, but it could have been at some point fairly recently when sea levels were lower.

[tomcam]

Moorage fees back then? Practically nothing.

[jeron]

And it was quite easy to get into the yacht club of Neanderthals

[greatpostman]

This idea that we were only sophisticated for the last few thousand years is laughable

[koheripbal]

The correctness of this comment wildly depends on the reader's interpretation of the word "sophisticated".

[AndrewKemendo]

I think it’s important to note that this is just showing that Neanderthal were sailing long before modern human remains of sailing were dated to - lll

Modern humans and Neanderthals (and Denisovians) coexist for about 100-150k years before modern humans basically killed them all after interbreeding.

[btilly]

Interspecies violence is one of a ton of proposed theories, and not a lot of evidence exists to suggest favoring one over the other.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_extinction for some of the other theories.

[jjtheblunt]

killed?