It is a bit weird to frame one of two competing protocols as the successor of the other, when the only data point for this assertion is that one is older.
Matrix has its de facto centralized server in Matrix.org where almost all rooms will have its data sent through because of accounts joining rooms. The servers have been too heavy/expensive for self-hosting that many end up relying on the big servers to use (maybe the Rust server will help, Dendrite?), but the “resilience” mentioned is a big cause for this expense (similar issues with Mastodon). JSON isn’t superior to XML--it can be in some cases but it’s not without drawbacks; experimental EXI could help with the size. XEPs are an ad hoc unified spec, and the buy-into-or-not nature has some advantages where it’s easier to experiment and fallbacks are common even with fragmentation. OMEMO isn’t perfect, but it does cover multi-device encryption and carbons work to get message history.
I like Matrix. But I don’t think it’s the only or best solution despite all of the current hype; the XMPP solution should be looked at more often. XMPP offers additional flexibility as well not being limited to just a chat/communications platform where folks use it for presence, UnifiedPush, etc.
None of that were problems that stopped XMPP from being popular. The ones you mentioned are problems nerds had with it, not normal users. Except "unified specification", that's a big one
It was simple: UI/UX experience:
* each server supported different set of features
* each client supported different set of features
* some of them (like gateways to other chats) were "generic" enough that power users were needed to set them up, even if they worked extremely well
* Most chats were "text-mostly" with shitty html subset, which was just worse for power and normal users alone compared to now-near-standard "markdown + reactions"
Will you get your chat history on given combination of client and server ? Who the fuck knows
Will you have direct data transfer work ? Who the fuck knows
Can you share file to a group chat ? Who the fuck knows
"Oh look markdown is popular, lets IMPLEMENT SOMETHING ELSE THAT'S SIMILAR BUT INCOMPATIBLE" https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0393.html and other great XEPs... I swear whoever is running that is smoking crack
And the XEPs. Millions of them. There is no version of protocol to target by client or server, there is not even "level of features" (lets say "text only", "text + voice", "text + video conferencing"), no, pick and choose, and on both server and client site.
XMPP is absolute mess and mountain of design by committee
I'm going to reply to some of your points because they're misguided:
> resilience against servers going down
The matrix model and the XMPP model are different. They solve orthogonal problems. Even the matrix people say it. That's like saying emails are better than github for collaboration because they are resilient against servers going down: it's true, but it's a different model. Not suitable for everyone.
> resilience against malicious federation
Wait for matrix to be taken up by big tech companies, you'll see spam flooding. I don't welcome it, but it's all about economics
> Json instead of XML
This is both subjective and shows the lack of understanding that extensibility is, and how json only does 1/10 of what proper XML can do.
tcfhgj|2 years ago
- resilience against servers going down
- resilience against malicious federation
- Json instead of XML
- unified specification
- handling of E2EE with multiple devices and message history
- not need to rely on other servers for media access
Probably more, this was just off the top of my head
toastal|2 years ago
I like Matrix. But I don’t think it’s the only or best solution despite all of the current hype; the XMPP solution should be looked at more often. XMPP offers additional flexibility as well not being limited to just a chat/communications platform where folks use it for presence, UnifiedPush, etc.
ilyt|2 years ago
It was simple: UI/UX experience:
* each server supported different set of features * each client supported different set of features * some of them (like gateways to other chats) were "generic" enough that power users were needed to set them up, even if they worked extremely well * Most chats were "text-mostly" with shitty html subset, which was just worse for power and normal users alone compared to now-near-standard "markdown + reactions"
Will you get your chat history on given combination of client and server ? Who the fuck knows
Will you have direct data transfer work ? Who the fuck knows
Can you share file to a group chat ? Who the fuck knows
"Oh look markdown is popular, lets IMPLEMENT SOMETHING ELSE THAT'S SIMILAR BUT INCOMPATIBLE" https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0393.html and other great XEPs... I swear whoever is running that is smoking crack
And the XEPs. Millions of them. There is no version of protocol to target by client or server, there is not even "level of features" (lets say "text only", "text + voice", "text + video conferencing"), no, pick and choose, and on both server and client site.
XMPP is absolute mess and mountain of design by committee
rakoo|2 years ago
> resilience against servers going down
The matrix model and the XMPP model are different. They solve orthogonal problems. Even the matrix people say it. That's like saying emails are better than github for collaboration because they are resilient against servers going down: it's true, but it's a different model. Not suitable for everyone.
> resilience against malicious federation
Wait for matrix to be taken up by big tech companies, you'll see spam flooding. I don't welcome it, but it's all about economics
> Json instead of XML
This is both subjective and shows the lack of understanding that extensibility is, and how json only does 1/10 of what proper XML can do.
> unified specification
Not all XMPP usages are the same. If you want messaging, you use the compliance suites, which are specs: https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/cs-2022.html#im
> handling of E2EE with multiple devices and message history
Has been working for years already: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0384.html
> not need to rely on other servers for media access
Part of the standard installation of prosody and ejabberd, arguably two of the most known servers, for years. A few lines in the conf.
Matrix solves problems and creates others. Your information is outdated by almost a decade, which probably explains why you think matrix solves these.